Hazaatan

How does steel have less HP than Iron? that makes no sense.
This table seems to be a choice of a few random values per category, ignoring any RL material qualities
 
Some very quick and simple actions, like a google search, will give you some information to work with and make these values make sense. 
example: https://www.rapiddirect.com/blog/metal-strength-chart/
 
The table in the blogpost seems to indicate someone just sat down and made up some arbitrary numbers without any consideration for the actual materials represented.
 
Also, making these changes also means that you must rebalance recipes as for instance concrete becomes far less effective that other materials while being way more expensive to produce which would not make sense.
 
Rebalancing materials really also means you have to bring in the long promised option to replace one voxel material in a blueprint for another before spawning it
 
 
And lastly, looking at these changes, how does a flight chair end up weighing in at 3 tonnes using materials in the list? I know it's not voxels but still ..
 

The honeycomb change that we actually want and have wanted for a very long time is PURPLE PLASTIC.

Interesting, we will have to calculate the impact of the voxel on certain types of ship, but currently the main concern in PVP is the cross section imho. The voxels must have minimal impact on the cross section to allow their use and see real designed PVP ships. Currently voxels/CCS ship = borg cube, or close to, and viable just in defense of alien core and still...
My first thought is that it will therefore have a too little impact/no impact on the current PVP.

But it's a good start.

I only got 3 words for this: "Va por ware"

This new system is cumbersome, tedious, inefficient, and "not fun". It's absolutely gut wrenching how bad industry is wrecked. It's also very expensive if you can't sell your products chaining up the schematic tree to make an element.  This is so, so bad.  I just want to throw in the towel, but not sure if my corp will come back.  If they wipe and take all the skill points with...there ...literally is no point to play. 

Maybe speak for yourself instead of explaining other people's thoughts and motivations. There's a lot more opinions than the simple dichotomy you're presenting. 
 
I do see how this change makes it easier on new players...but also see how this changes the nature of industry at scale, which removes yet another core pillar of the game, reducing overall engagement. 
 
Exploration isn't a thing, anymore, because mining is gone. Wrecks obviously don't count as a real exploration mechanic to anyone that's tried. 
Mining isn't a thing anymore, it's a timer. 
Missions are mostly NPC missions slowboating, that's not fun to me or to most people. 
Now industry...it's still a feature, but with these changes, it limits how much time you can really spend on it. 
 
To be clear, this change wouldn't be a problem if DU was like other MMOs, overflowing with other things to do.
 
If that were the case, I'd be far more open to this change, because I understand (very well with a lot of real experience) why scaling factories is difficult. 
 
But...DU isn't that game. It's a game that's always suffered from a lack of feature depth, which NQ's recent crop of changes have made far worse. So we can't scale factories anymore...okay, that wouldn't be a huge deal on its own...but then, what can we do? Build bases that don't do anything? Fly ships that don't need to go anywhere? 
 
They keep talking about cost and making changes to reduce cost....but where are these resources going? There needs to be something to do at scale -- it isn't industry, it isn't mining, it isn't missions, it sure as hell isn't PvP. 
 
Looking back on when this beta launched and thinking "hey, there was actually more stuff to do then than there is now" isn't a great sign that this is an MMO that can grow and expand. 
 
That's the fundamental issue I have with these changes...it takes a game with little feature depth and makes it even more shallow.
 
At this stage, things should be progressing the other direction. Instead, development is going backwards...making the game less and less feature-rich and engaging with every patch in the name of cost. It was NQ's job to design and develop a working game knowing the limits of infrastructure, as every professional engineer in the world does. 
 
This is one of the most basic and obvious facets of developing an MMO and isn't something you think about only in the months before release. 

Joined in the first Alpha played hundreds of hours with and even was interviewed by the mouse @le_souriceau himself for his gazette back in the early days (under a different name) and I honestly thought this game had hit the sweet spot, but then it all just went to shit after 0.23 hit and combined with a total lack of progress, nay intermittent downgrading, the game became all but pointless. Only a single member from our org of about 50 players still plays anything more than the skill queue mini game.
 
such a shame. I still stare at all my old screenshots from the NDA Alpha period and reminisce about what could have been.

DU failed as wider content social game a la EVE (at least partly), degraded into ultra niche thing for several hundreds of stubborn nerds, who enjoy it as sort of voxel/lua editior. This is not viable commercially.
 
Can they turn it around? Unlikely. Time window for that if not gone, become immensly more narrow.

same overcomplicated ill advised changes from the same inexperienced dev crew......launch will be a flippin fiasco.
who was the idiot that didn't see copy batch size was important.........and copy times are ludicrous need to cut that by 50%......heads need to roll and you need experienced with mmo personnelle
 
vote with your wallet
 
let them deal with the stupidity they've
deployed

Welcome to the club, we are legion, take a seat in a confy chair and look at the house burn, there is plenty and free snack and drink in the kitchen.

Honestly? I've given up by now. I no longer have the energy to constantly argue with a wall, I no longer have the will to think about how to help the game, I'm running out of ideas about what could be improved, yet there were so many ideas written down here. I'm just exhausted and I don't see any will that NQ really wants to save the game. Savings have been made for months and years, and investment would help much more. I'll just wait and see what happens....

Seriously, how is no no one discussing this?
 
There's literally zero point in composite product schematics (brick/wood/carbon fiber).
 
Because there are no productivity talents for these materials (only the honeycomb they are used to make), factory refiners produce exactly the same amount of brick/wood/carbon fiber product as your nanopack. And it can't be improved. So, you can make the same amount of brick/wood/carbon fiber in your nanopack with no schematics OR spend 12,000 quanta per batch and wait 40 mins each to make schematics you don't need, to make it in a factory.
 

yes
 
apparently the current vision is pvp and nobody thinks about how these ships and bases can even be build in acceptable timelines.
 
That people want something else to do apparently is lost, calling thies an eve minecraft crossover has now totally failed.
 
what is lacking is simple stuff, make everything added also work like showers. Glamour is endgame but broken shit is broken shit and showers that do not shower are broken shits. BTW who wants to shower their space suit? so we need to be able to get them off, also for sleeping. and one more thing, having cubboards and closets but nothing to add or the possibility to put stuff in it: broken shit.
 
And i want to be able to sit on my created couch and drink a beer or eat a home made thingy. 
 
small stuff that is viable but apparently its alot more importand to rethink a failing system, throw alot of time and cash into it as we dont want egos to be shattered by telling its bad and we scrap it complete.
 
Please start adding reall contend and stop messing with existing stuff or limiting stuff thats been around forever.
 
Automated mining would never come and we were all fine with that.......mining is deleted and we now have automining THAT SUCKS
we asked a drill unit to add to a vehicle, not a static new minigame that costs time and has no real purpose as the output is laughable (2 minutes grabbing rocks equals a day aoutomining)
 
 

This needs to be repeated.

Exactly!  Just look at Valheim and V Rising.  They are just re-skins of basic crafting/adventure games with their own unique changes.  Those games are huge success stories.  NQ is over here trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn, only to fail and fall back on.. time gating??  I'm baffled, just baffled.  The only way to make sense of any of this, is they are cutting their losses and trying to milk the release for whatever they can recover.

Exactly!  Just look at Valheim and V Rising.  They are just re-skins of basic crafting/adventure games with their own unique changes.  Those games are huge success stories.  NQ is over here trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn, only to fail and fall back on.. time gating??  I'm baffled, just baffled.  The only way to make sense of any of this, is they are cutting their losses and trying to milk the release for whatever they can recover.

I have commented on this earlier.
And my opinion is that a year is about the shortest time it takes for someone who has just reallocated to a new country/job, to go "ooooshit" and then find a good job (at their home country) again before leaving.
 
And this is one of the many, many things I hope we get to know the truth off once NQ goes belly up (most likely) and past employees can speak out.

Just to put this out there....DU has a 3-person design team as of now per a video put out by their design lead. 
 
The design lead's design credits include:
1993's "Pac in Time" by Kalisto 1993's "Fury of the Furries" by Mindscape 1997's "Nightmare creatures" by Activision 2015's "Trivial Pursuit" by Gameloft S.E. (yes the board game) The mining mini game starts to make sense, doesn't it...?
 
This is a designer with more experience in simple/arcade style games...so simple timers and mini-games probably feel very comfortable.
 
I don't want to be too harsh...but is this really the right experience for designing an MMO? 
 
Compared to the former Eve online designer who quit after <1 year...which, we still don't really know the story of why they left. 

You are right NQ never thinks of foundational mechanics. Everything is a bolt on. Same with Asteroids, we get a shitty dsat and it's done. Instead they could of made a long range scanner that not only detects Asteroids but other ships. It would be a foundation to add other gameplay. And to find those Asteroids you would have to fly out in space and look and scan for them.  Makes the pvpers have to move about too Instead of sitting checking a dsat every 20min.
 
There really isn't any good foundation mechanics in this game at all.

Fuel or energy management will "control" the mechanic. It will be what allows the mechanic to work.
 
It really is not that difficult to implement but as it is a control/management system, it really needs to be in early and at the core of the code so it can reach everything en vice versa. NQ never bothered to implement it and at this time if they did it would at best be a bolt on.

There is a few good posts on the forums which show how a proper system could work like THIS one. It shows a mechanic which is at the core of the code and so can control (or be made to control) what you can do on a core. When everything on a core needs to "report" into this and report what power is needed, you can teak numbers to manage what can be done on a core and what needs additional resources. you could add batteries for instance which wil then make more energy available and you can add generators to burn fuel and allow energy to be replenished. 

And in that way, you effectively give players a way to manage their needs while you still maintain a way to control how that will work and what cap (if any) is set for that. None of this exists in DU and at this point there really is no way (outside of a complete rewrite of core code) to add and whichever way you do, it will massively disrupt the game.
 
NQ has had their chance and has been given good ideas and feedback on this, but they choose to ignore it all.

First, balancing economics isn't nearly as important as creating engaging gameplay -- the economy exists in video games to stimulate engagement, not for its own sake. In this, NQ has started to put the cart before the horse. 
 
Fuel/energy does gate production just like schematics. Your factory produces limited energy (which requires fuel to keep running) -- more production means needing more power plants, not just more fuel. That's a gate, and a big one depending on how it is balanced. 
 
Fuel/energy could offer more logistical complexity than shoveling paper into machines from your backpack. That's the thing about every good factory game -- production itself usually isn't as challenging as logistics. 
 
There's a reason logistics should be a focus -- it means more people having a reason to fly or haul, it could make the location of your factory more relevant, and it creates more engaging loops in managing potentially different types of power generation. If you could sell power? Well, that's more reasons to cooperate. Logistical complexity would encourage a lot of the gameplay people are missing now. 
 
Logistics will never be a real thing in DU, though, because DU insists on every action being done by human beings (and there's no player-built markets). 
 
So without better tools, logistics comes down to needing human haulers, which is severely limiting and boring. That means less targets for PvP, less interesting industry/factory gameplay, and few reasons to even leave your hexes. 
 
TLDR: fuel / energy is a solid idea IMO, but NQ doesn't have the time and really making it work well would require too many other changes they don't want to do

So, instead of adding actual fuel to industry, like every other factory game, NQ is turning schematics into fuel...  The correct answer is right there, it's in every good factory game that I have ever played.  It should have been generators leading up to reactors to give more elements to play with and manage... 
 
This is a train wreck.  I didn't think anything would surpass New World for the most epic-dumpster-fire-trainwreck of a release, but NQ is lining it up so DU has a really good shot at surpassing New World for the worst release.
And just like New World, the only thing more cringe than the train wreck itself, is the white knights that follow saying everything is fine.

So, instead of adding actual fuel to industry, like every other factory game, NQ is turning schematics into fuel...  The correct answer is right there, it's in every good factory game that I have ever played.  It should have been generators leading up to reactors to give more elements to play with and manage... 
 
This is a train wreck.  I didn't think anything would surpass New World for the most epic-dumpster-fire-trainwreck of a release, but NQ is lining it up so DU has a really good shot at surpassing New World for the worst release.
And just like New World, the only thing more cringe than the train wreck itself, is the white knights that follow saying everything is fine.

So, instead of adding actual fuel to industry, like every other factory game, NQ is turning schematics into fuel...  The correct answer is right there, it's in every good factory game that I have ever played.  It should have been generators leading up to reactors to give more elements to play with and manage... 
 
This is a train wreck.  I didn't think anything would surpass New World for the most epic-dumpster-fire-trainwreck of a release, but NQ is lining it up so DU has a really good shot at surpassing New World for the worst release.
And just like New World, the only thing more cringe than the train wreck itself, is the white knights that follow saying everything is fine.

So, instead of adding actual fuel to industry, like every other factory game, NQ is turning schematics into fuel...  The correct answer is right there, it's in every good factory game that I have ever played.  It should have been generators leading up to reactors to give more elements to play with and manage... 
 
This is a train wreck.  I didn't think anything would surpass New World for the most epic-dumpster-fire-trainwreck of a release, but NQ is lining it up so DU has a really good shot at surpassing New World for the worst release.
And just like New World, the only thing more cringe than the train wreck itself, is the white knights that follow saying everything is fine.