Cybob19

I disagree with more or less everything you said there because this is a game where the players create the content and we will need a lot of player created content in order to attract new players.  Do you really think there are tens of thousands of players waiting in the wings ready to join up in the first 2 weeks after a launch and surface gather/run missions until their eyes bleed?  I think you're dreaming!  This is a niche game and a lot of people 'in the niche' will already have tried the game.  I'm sure there are lots of players who will one day play but I think those players will join slowly over time rather than in one big burst.
 
Also, what sort of experience is a new player going to get at release after a wipe.  All of the existing players will already be way ahead of them (no level playing field here, we'll all be min-maxing missions from day 1!) and most will be too busy to help them onboard.  There won't be any cities to visit, shiny ships to buy, asteroid mining runs or PvP to join in with, just a bunch of people semi-afk while their ship earns back their money.
 
And as for the broken market with material surplus, this is caused by fundamental problems with the way the game works (infinite production and talent points reducing the cost of production, for example) which mean that even after a wipe the market will be very quickly filled with surplus everything before any new players have had a chance to find their feet.
 
Organised groups will re-form and own asteroids, etc just like they did before.  The people with giant factories will quickly get these back up and running.  And new players will be reduced to being paid to fly missions for the more experienced players, surface gathering and handing it over, etc until the game gets established again.
 
Far better, IMO, to bring the new players into an established world with new player PvP training programs, asteroid mining missions to join in with, mining units set up which people can use their charges on, cities to visit, ships to buy, etc. 

It's the same game with the same market dynamics. But next time everything will bz different I swear you just don't get it.
 
Explain it instead of doing condescending conjecture.
 
We get the money point, I'm happy to pay subscriptions but they can't release something so unfinished.
 
 

I nominate this from the YouTube user "Bonusaben":
 
 

-.- can we please wipe so the guy who hasnt read a devblog for 16 months blesses us with his presence for two and a half weeks
 
what was it can't turn a profit turning ore into intermediaries or some other thing nobody needs help for, or are you convinced all juicy spots are allready sucked dry...?
 
Sorry for the salt but I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of these reoccurring easily debunked memes.

-.- can we please wipe so the guy who hasnt read a devblog for 16 months blesses us with his presence for two and a half weeks
 
what was it can't turn a profit turning ore into intermediaries or some other thing nobody needs help for, or are you convinced all juicy spots are allready sucked dry...?
 
Sorry for the salt but I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of these reoccurring easily debunked memes.

-.- can we please wipe so the guy who hasnt read a devblog for 16 months blesses us with his presence for two and a half weeks
 
what was it can't turn a profit turning ore into intermediaries or some other thing nobody needs help for, or are you convinced all juicy spots are allready sucked dry...?
 
Sorry for the salt but I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of these reoccurring easily debunked memes.

-.- can we please wipe so the guy who hasnt read a devblog for 16 months blesses us with his presence for two and a half weeks
 
what was it can't turn a profit turning ore into intermediaries or some other thing nobody needs help for, or are you convinced all juicy spots are allready sucked dry...?
 
Sorry for the salt but I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of these reoccurring easily debunked memes.

I'm stockpiling all the ore and I keep having to build new containers. We're talking litteral millions of liters since MU dropped.
 
When I didn't have a job it would have taken A LOT of effort to keep up with the production rates by hand. With how little freetime I have at the moment it would have been plain impossible to mine as much. I'm dilligent and what I'll have stockpiled by the end of the year will utterly dwarf what I mined by hand, starting at launch on pristine planets.
 
 
Sometimes I have the instinct to just give namcigam something, then I remind myself if he truely struggles like this, whatever I could give him would evaporate like a drop on a hot stove. I had a cooplayer once like that, terribly difficult to help somebody who can't / won't adjust their expectations and think reality should bend to their plans, instead of having a quick calculus on ROI.

And decreasing the max speed is going to attract more players how? It's not like you can say "the game is finally balanced" and millions of players just show up. The only thing achieved by taking away things that people could do before is people leaving. Nerf paradigm is not the only strategy to balance things. Buff paradigm can be used to balance things instead.

How about instead of speed nerfs we get speed buffs by over-driving the engines up to 130% throttle to a final speed of 39,000km/h but with a trade-off of losing the engine HP starting at over 100% throttle during acceleration continually until it breaks. Smaller engines could over-drive for longer than the bigger ones. The buff speed of 39,000km/h drops off gradually to 30,000km/h if throttle is not at 130%. Different "flavors" of engines would have different rates of HP loss when over-driven. i.e. Military can be over-driven for considerably longer than the Basic.

It's is explicitly not about scale, but since we're at it:
 
 
300 tiles and you're talking something roughly the size of malta
 
There in 9 nations in the world with 5000 or less inhabitants.
 
 
 
What I am trying to say, and you seem to hellbent on interpreting differently:
 
If there is only player-player interractions, the endgame will necessarily and 100% revolve around PVP or rather org vs org. Given the slow pace of progress and how you can not protect your assets 24-7, it makes players dependant on an org that can impose some sense of lawfulness, basically assuming many functions of the nationstate. If there are only player-player interractions the game NEEDS to be that hardcore, but you are setting yourself up for dissapointment.
 
Much better to give the players things to do that do not necessarily revolve around other players, on top of all the things we were getting for a "player-driven universe". That way 99% of players don't feel compelled to cannibalise on eachother as sole source of entertainment. Progress is way too slow and labor intensive in this game for that to be fun.
 
 
Honestly how did we wind up arguing you seem to agree about the need for PVE.

This is one of many examples of DU's "innovation" where some simple phrase like "players do everything" sounds interesting at first, but quickly breaks down when you think about the details. 
 
DU's choice to not implement NPCs might be the biggest driver of game design failures, overall. 
 
Making it so that all combat is only PvP is a bold choice that would require a very experienced designer to meticulously plan around...
 
Unfortunately, with DU we got "novelty for the sake of novelty" rather than a planned, methodical design -- and people of course miss the typical gameplay that comes so easily when NPCs exist. The issue isn't the lack of NPCs per se but the lack of any other mechanic that provides similar engagement.
 
They ripped out a huge pillar without having supports to replace it. 

Also I feel like the more elements there are on a ship, the worse the framerate will get in flight... Im on a ryzen 2700x 64g ram 2080ti, and a a 1,5 kt ship will yield around 14 fps... the novark speeder has fluid framerate. Possibly the difficulties stem from 60+ instances of lift and drag being calculated.

I agree it’s dumb we have two
use so
many wings 

Some really great ideas but if NQ keeps doing stuff like this, it would mean the game would never come out, ever.  It would be a huge development job effecting pretty much every element of the game, especially when it will be something else effecting balance.  NQ need to focus on finish the key missing parts (some sort of territory wars, energy and if we are lucky some sort of player markets) and then spend some solid time fixing and improving the gameplay that is already there (roids, missions, pvp, FTUE and hopefully Salvaging which is now on the roadmap) and then they need to get the game live.

They should not be completely reworking multiple core gameplay elements, that ship sailed a long time ago. 

I do like the concept though, I hope they look at it for potential further development.

In other words:
Throw away 6-8 years of work and start again, only to have the exact same sentence be repeated in 6-8 years time.
 
XD
 

I'm maintaining 28 territories.   I worked out a schedule where i spend maybe 10mins a day calibrating MUs, and an hour or two on weekends picking up ore from the outer planets and warping it back to Alioth.
 
It's really not that much work.  i never gather the rocks, and i only play the mini game if i absolutely need the bonus calibration.  And i still skip it sometimes if i'm not in the mood.
 
A little effort results in a little ore.  More effort results in more ore.  It's really up to you how much time you want to spend doing it.
 
 

You guys are crazy, im making 1.6million ore per week from 14 territories. I’ve got like 9 mil stacked up, what in the world do you need more ore than that for?
 
The problem is the opposite, MU product too much ore.

It’s the tale of two stackings that were never meant to be, nested organizations and overlapping elements on ships. Both have been problematic, and we’d like to give you an update on the steps we’re taking to correct them.
 
 
ORGANIZATION CONSTRUCT SLOTS
 
Several months ago, we suggested a way to address the issue of cascading organizations being created as a way to circumvent the soft limitations of construct and territory numbers. Players raised some valid concerns about the proposal, citing that it would adversely affect how they managed their organizations’ holdings. In consideration of that feedback, we temporarily tabled the proposed changes and went back to the drawing board.
 
The problem remains and needs to be resolved sooner rather than later to avoid a myriad of issues in the future. DU simply can’t support an infinite number of constructs per player. It’s why we have construct allowances in the first place. We needed a solution that would support community projects for organizations of any size without penalizing those that are prolific. After all, one of the core features of DU is to build lots of cool stuff.
 
 
THE NEW WAY
 
The solution we’ve designed will detach construct capacity rights from organizations and put them directly into players’ hands. 
 
Organizations will now have a base construct capacity of zero.
The reasoning behind this is to no longer make it a viable option to create countless organizations simply to increase the capacity of constructs available. This will now depend on the next item on the list…
Each Novean will have 15 assignable organization construct slots, with an additional 10 available from talents.
This change allows us to scale the maximum number of constructs to the number of players. This can be beneficial to smaller organizations because… 
Players can assign these slots to any organization of their choosing, whether or not they are a member of the organization.
We hope to see players use their available organization construct slots to support their organizations and to help support community projects they like. For those who want to support a different organization…
Noveans can reassign their slots from one organization to another, though this will cause the former organization to lose construct capacity.
This means that...
An organization that loses capacity will either need to acquire new slots from players in order to support its infrastructure or reduce its number of constructs.
If the organization has more constructs than its allotted slots for two weeks, the organization will receive a warning. 
If the organization does not either reduce its construct count to below its new allocated slots or increase its slot count two weeks after the warning, random constructs from that organization will become abandoned and lose ownership. At that point, any player or organization who has the necessary allotment of construct slots may claim it. 
This system allows us to maintain a balance in terms of expected constructs present.
 
Further, to prevent players from trying to circumnavigate the system by reassigning construct slots back and forth every two weeks, there will be a minimum of 30 days before you can reassign the slots away from an organization.
 
 
USING YOUR TALENTS
 
Many of you likely used talents to increase an organization's construct capacity. Talents will still play a role as they provide an upper ceiling for a single organization’s capacity; however, these talents have been increased in their capacity, which now allows a single organization to have a far higher construct slot maximum.
 
Where the old maximum was 275 constructs, the new upper limit will be 1625.
 
As these changes significantly increase the scale of which these talents previously applied, these talents will be reset at the 0.28 Panacea release.
Organization Construct Management
Organization Construct Management Specialization
Advanced Organization Construct Management Specialization
We try to limit the resetting of talents as much as we can; however, due to the considerable changes in the way these talents now behave and scale, we feel that refunding these talents is required.
 
 
FRESH, NEW UI
 
All the changes revealed above will come with some UI improvements such as:
A new interface on the organization home page, allowing each Novean to assign construct slots to organizations of their choosing and to see how many slots they have assigned to which organizations.

A new interface called ‘Constructs’ on each organization page, allowing each organization to have insight on how many slots they have available, who they received them from, when the next construct check is due, a log of slot gains and losses, and what their slot maximum capacity and talent maximum capacity are.
 

 
Another minor feature we will begin to introduce into some select UI elements is the ability to export lists in JSON format, the first of which can be found in the new organization ‘Constructs’ UI above. It will include a small copy-to-clipboard button, which will copy a JSON formatted string containing a list of all the data available in the column. In the above example, these can be found for:
Construct Slots: This will return a JSON string of player names, how many slots they have shared, and if they are a member of your organization.
Construct Check: This will return a JSON string of constructs that have been abandoned due to lack of construct slots, their coordinates at the time of abandonment, and a total count of constructs that have been abandoned.
Log: This will return a JSON string containing the date it was copied as a unit timestamp, the number of allocation changes, followed by a list of players, how many they have lent to the organization and how many the organization has as that point, along with a Unix timestamp of the transaction.
 
Following feedback on these export functions, we will consider implementing them for other UI elements such as, for example, the Talents UI.
 
When the Panacea update launches, it will kick off a 30-day grace period at the end of which the abandonment of constructs will go into effect. Please note that if your organization exceeds its slot capacity, a warning message will be received; however, no abandoning will happen for the first 30 days after Panacea’s release.
 
 
DISABLING OVERLAPPING ELEMENTS
 
The stacking of elements on ships is unintended gameplay - aka an exploit - that we have been aware of for a regrettably long time. Though we’ve explored a few different options, including the detection solution we released previously, community feedback prompted us to postpone the disabling of elements until after Panacea’s initial release. 
 
The revised approach will likely include trials on the Live server without disabling elements in order to measure the impact of the algorithms. We would like to thank everyone who reached out to us with constructive feedback and bug reports of elements that caused problems in specific placements.
 
 
FEEDBACK WANTED
 
The forums are the absolute best place to share your feedback with us. Although members of the DU dev team may pop into Discord from time to time, the loose and fluid nature of those chat channels can make it difficult to have an earnest discussion. The forums, on the other hand, are static and much more conversation-friendly. 
 
All of that said, we hope you’ll join the conversation about this devblog here. 

Are you serious now? Are you suggesting to clear the server every time, just because the economy is alive? and reacts to the world? Does that mean the price went up or down?
 
Sir, please forgive me.. This is an absolutely normal situation when market prices either rise or fall depending on demand/updates, etc. So it was and will be in all MMOs before the release and after the release - it doesn't matter, and everyone falls into this zone of such prices - all under the same conditions. And if you didn’t find it, don’t worry, you will find it in the future, but no one will ever wipe it just because someone missed the last part of the game’s history. It's funny in this case.

Wallet feeling a little light lately? Get ready to remedy that when the Panacea update hits, bringing with it two lucrative, quanta-producing possibilities: space wrecks and inactive asset requisitioning (IAR).
 
SPACE WRECKS
 

You’re going about your business, flying through space from one market to another or heading out to join some friends when your radar unexpectedly reveals something. Curious, you move closer to investigate and find wreckage. There’s no indication of who left it behind or why. Finders keepers, right? It’s yours now. And you’ve got some choices to make.
 
DECISIONS, DECISIONS
Will you: 
salvage the ship for materials and elements? tokenize and sell the whole ship? sell the information about where the wreck is located? create a mission to get someone else to salvage it? The decision is all up to you.
 
RADAR AND RARITY
No special equipment is needed to locate these space wrecks, your standard radar is enough to detect them.
They will spawn randomly throughout Helios. There are five tiers of rarity, with lower-tier wrecks with low-value contents spawning at a higher frequency. The highest-tier wrecks will be harder to find; those who discover and harvest them will be rewarded with high-value materials and elements.
 
INACTIVE ASSET REQUISITIONING
 
This system is being introduced to address one of the chief complaints we’ve heard from Noveans, namely abandoned constructs cluttering up the universe, especially in public markets.
 
The purpose of IAR is to:
create salvaging opportunities for players around the game world. ensure cleanliness and performance around markets and other Aphelia zone hot spots. clean up older, unowned constructs.  
In other words, IAR has the potential to create a less cluttered environment for everyone and a fatter wallet for you.
 
ABANDONED CONSTRUCTS DEFINED
Players with a subscription, even if they have not logged in for a while, are in no danger of having their constructs flagged as “abandoned”, with the exception of constructs parked in Aphelia territory as noted below.
 
In effect, constructs belonging to unsubscribed users and not on their owners’ sanctuary zones will eventually lose their ownership, putting them in an abandoned state and making them vulnerable to be salvaged by other players. Likewise, constructs owned by an organization will lose their ownership when the org’s last remaining legate ends their subscription.
 
During the unsubscribe process, players will be reminded that their constructs will be in danger of becoming abandoned. When the constructs lose ownership, a blueprint will be placed in the owner’s inventory should they choose to return to Helios at a later date.
 
TIME’S TICKING 
When an account becomes inactive due to a canceled subscription, a countdown will begin on all constructs belonging to that account. After a period of time, those constructs will lose their ownership and other players will be able to salvage or capture them.
 
Then, all unowned constructs will have a countdown timer and it will count down from the moment it is unowned, regardless of why they are unowned (PvP destruction, IAR, abandonment, etc.) At the end of this timer, the construct will simply be removed from the game world.
 
The ‘ownership’ timer for unsubscribed players’ constructs is three months (90 days/2160 hours). The timer is the same for organization-owned constructs and begins when the last active legate of the owning organization’s subscription expires.
 
Each time a construct is unclaimed, whether due to an owner’s inactive game account or if abandoned via PvP, a one-month countdown to decay is set and is visible to everyone. If no one salvages the construct, it will be permanently removed from the game.
 
As with most newly introduced systems, this is subject to change in the future depending on the metrics we see as time passes.
 
SPECIAL RULES FOR MARKETS 
A modified version of IAR will be used on Aphelia territories, including all market zones.
Regardless of whether or not the owner is an active subscriber, all constructs on Aphelia territories are subject to IAR. As soon as a player exits their construct in Aphelia territory, a 168-hour (seven-day) abandonment countdown will begin for that construct. This is considerably shorter than the default IAR timer. Once that countdown reaches 0, the construct will lose its ownership. A new countdown timer of 48-hours (two days) before deletion will start ticking.
 
HAPPY HUNTING
 
Will you be among the happy scavengers scouring the skyways and byways for wrecked ships and abandoned constructs? Join the conversation about this devblog here.

We can agree on the second paragraph, actually I was a bit surprised that we'd agree, but now that I reread you I realize the first question was directed at me and not rhetorical or anything.

I would just like people who claim the economy is broken to elaborate, because that statement in and of itself doesn't say much... and I've heard weird stuff before, like people expecting that one needs to be able to turn a profit by buying ore and selling it as pure or intermediary parts (pipes, screws, etc those with +50% the talent) and I'm like: you realize how quickly those talents are skilled, and why no serious industrialist would want to be dependant on the market for such a basic step?

So yeah if you think the economy is broken, elaborate please.

Hi all!
 
After reading your feedback, we have noted that the removal of log functions was having a big impact on you. So after some internal discussions to find a solution based on your suggestions that would meet your expectations but would not be too heavy to implement, we have made a decision.
 
We plan to add with Panacea, the ability to copy to your clipboard the content of a chat channel, and clean it up.

It is certain that this will not provide a nice solution for the problems related to the lack of data export to virtual currency systems. We have some ideas for this but it won't be for a while unfortunately.

Hopefully this announcement will allay your concerns  

NQ-Ligo

That's called bot orders.

Unless you specifically deactivated DRM on your structures, requisitioners can not blueprint them either, nor copy paste voxelmancy into another structure.

It is an issue, I lended my alt to somebody I know IRL and even though I've known him since preschool and we have contact regularily, it was awful and unmanagable.
 
I'd give him what he needed to progress every time he found himself in front of an obstacle, he'd rip out all the elements, build something less functional for 3 days, try his luck once at what he wanted to do, and then either decide it was beneath him or waste another week on a crappy method. Like the guy was convinced he'd be mining faster if he first carved a tunnel grid into the tile, spent easily like 2 days tunneling before he turned his scanner on once... And thus I watched him fail upwards, and just kept providing him with more stuff, and more RDMS priviledges he kept constantly whining for instead of using the [filtered]ing game mechanism I tried to teach him for once.
One day I show up and he basically helped himself for about 800kl ore... That is after allready having splurged every quanta he ever made when we split up bounty. Yup after he spent his, he started taking my half. Allways for projects stupider than the one before too, the guy had never hauled more than 300t and was sinking his ressources in a dynamic L core that filled out the whole space of the core, by the time I kicked him out of my account. Honestly I tolerate him bc I know him IRL, but it's really impressive how imperveous he is to advice and how talented he is to allways try the worst method first, which compounds into something truely awful because he can stick with something for years if it half worked once, and keep blaming it on the cirumstances if doesn't work when it shouldn't. Skilled all my talents to lvl3 too, even the ones I have at 5 on my main, he was just too special for any kind specialisation or planning ahead..
 
So yeah we need something beyond RDMS and the mere trust that participants will hold their end of the bargain. Noobs risk to be exploited, orgs risk to have monitor their members constantly.
 
At the moment we could like, gate certain zones, with double airlocks that assure there is allways just one person per lane, then transfer unit what they bring or get, out and into the lane, let LUA track the whole thing... But omitting the design and programming challenges of theftproof member bays... So what you happen to request 400kl you need to either stay in "decontamination shower" until the transfer unit is done or have a superlegate present?! Sure we could do loads of bookkeeping via LUA, but that's like a full-on programming job, and not the most fun at that, and you might still hit some hard walls.
 
So there are ways, but it's far from optimal, or even feasible for many players that are not programmers... There should be way, way easier solutions that don't require extensive knowledge of LUA, human ressources, and building an out-of-bonds glitchfree base.