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Blacksythe

Reputation system/Curriculum Vitae

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Firstly i want to link to the thread where i got this idea as it could go hand in hand with this system or simply be a stand alone system that replaces this system I thought it deserved it's own thread for discussion.

 

Yes it looks like a wall of text so I have bullet pointed it for you :P

 

Link

 

I would like to see in the game a reputation system allow me to explain 2 versions of this;

 

+1/-1 System

  • Player accepts job,
  • Player completes job,
  • Contractor +1 for player

 

Advantages

  • Simple,
  • Easy to implement,
  • Higher rep means more likely to get employment on bigger jobs,
  • Lower rep may represent a noob that you may not want to employ
  • Negative rep may represent a scammer, or a lazy half job

Disadvantages

  • Easily abused
  • Employers cannot see the scale of jobs that this player was involved with

 

 

Curriculum Vitae

 

This system requires some features being discussed in the other thread to work and would mean employers can see previous jobs that the player had been involved with and successfully or unsuccessfully completed. It could also include the +1/-1 system but employers again would be able to see if their score is legitimate or not.

 

Advantages

  • Higher rep means more likely to get employment on bigger jobs,
  • Lower rep may represent a noob that you may not want to employ
  • Negative rep may represent a scammer, or a lazy half job
  • Less open to abuse as players can assess if the rep is genuine or not
  • Previous employers could add comments on their performance and timekeeping
  • Employers can see what kind of jobs the player has been doing

Disadvantages

  • Can still be abused but would require extra work to abuse it.
  • Would potentially significantly slow down game play due to employers reviewing past histories

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Great suggestion! I really like this idea a lot. This could really make a difference in the game, and allow people that actually desire to do good jobs and help people to stand out above the trolls, or those darn lazy half jobs. The main issue I see, which you addressed, is that it could be abused. I could see a few friends just boosting rep together, i.e. standing on an iron planet and giving each other missions to "retrieve 1 gram of iron". Having past job history (and also importantly, the name of the player that gave that job) listed next to the rep would really help to minimize the boosting method, so I definitely like the "Curriculum Vitae" method you proposed. This is one of the best ideas I've seen proposed on this thread!

 

Also another addition would be a timestamp of when the job was given and completed. This could help to further identify boosters, and also benefit those that do real jobs quickly, allowing employers to see how fast they are!

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Awesome idea!!! - REALLY want to combine it with an idea I'm kicking around (see the Mech Union in Orgs on community) which would potentially solve the potential for abuse of this. Will post/message you both and others tomorrow.

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Job) I have enough of job in real life. Don't see how it should work.

 

Questions:

-Who give the jobs

-What kind of jobs

-How much they must be paid

-What to work for anothers not for yourself

-Why it is better (more profitable or more important) than basic trade

 

If I would get answers on this questions (which would mean, this system is really nice), I would say this is good suggestion. Right now don't see anything useful.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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Questions:
-Who give the jobs

The devs have stated they are leaning towards a player driven quest system by job i refer to anything you employ another player to do

 

-What kind of jobs

Anything the system i imagine is designed to be informative not a heavy scripted mechanic to hand hold

 

-How much they must be paid

Again this would tie into the player led quest system and is up to the "employer/contractor

 

-What to work for anothers not for yourself

Player choice some want to make it on there own others want to be offered things to do. I refer to early/late game players. Early game players will want to earn a rep it doesnt matter if they want to make it alone or not other players may not want to work for them if they also have a bad rep

 

Late game major Organizations will want lots of different people to do lot's of different things some not in the alliance having a good rep means that these organizations are more likely to offer the job to you. Bad rep or abused rep might mean they feel differently.

 

-Why it is better (more profitable or more important) than basic trade

Again it is not better or more profitable than basic trade if you order something off a market and the seller delivers fully you may wish to give them a +1 and leave a comment just like trust pilot. The profit comes when more players choose to buy from you.

 

Edit: Obviously this is dependent on the market mechanics in game.

 

If I would get answers on this questions (which would mean, this system is really nice), I would say this is good suggestion. Right now don't see anything useful.

I hope i have answered your questions if you have any further queries feel free to post them.

Thanks

Blacksythe

 

Edit again obviously if the community feels it can come up with something better or it just isnt worth the effort i am open to suggestion comments and questions

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Job) I have enough of job in real life. Don't see how it should work.

 

Questions:

-Who give the jobs

-What kind of jobs

-How much they must be paid

-What to work for anothers not for yourself

-Why it is better (more profitable or more important) than basic trade

 

If I would get answers on this questions (which would mean, this system is really nice), I would say this is good suggestion. Right now don't see anything useful.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

 

Well you know there will be lots of player-made quests in the game? People can give out jobs to people to have them do things for them that either they don't have the time to do or it's too risky for them. So:

- Players give the jobs.

- As for what kind of jobs, that can't be determined for certain yet, we don't know what kind of system it will be.

- The reward, how much they're paid, is of course entirely up to those involved, I don't see why there would be a limit on how much a job can be worth.

- I'm not sure what you mean by working for others, not yourself. But that's what this is.

- It is not necessarily better, but another option which adds diversity to the economy. If someone wants to do everything themselves, they can do that. But if you don't want to take the risk of going out and mining by yourself, or you have crappy equipment, you can hire someone to do it for you. But you don't want some crappy lazy guy doing the job, you need it done fast, so you find a guy with a great mining ship and good rep, and you know that employing him will work out well for both involved.

Similarly, it allows those that want to make a living doing jobs for people, to be able to do that well. If they enjoy trying hard and doing a good job, it'll make them stand out and allow them to get bigger jobs and make more money. Otherwise, they're no more appealing than the next guy, who might make a living double-crossing his employers.

 

And something else, is that maybe an employer decides he wants to get ahead by double-crossing those he gives jobs to. Well a player certainly isn't going to want to take a job from someone with negative rep that says that person tried to steal the cargo from the guy they "paid" to retrieve it! Rep would be important on both sides.

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@Archonious - great questions.

 

1) Black appears to be proposing a system/standard which is org agnostic and opt-in. So anyone.

 

2) Potentially any involving player to player transactions including employment and asset sales.

 

3) Thats up to player negotiation. But like real life, a good CV/"credit rating"/documented professional rep helps command higher $€¥.

 

4) Why not indeed. And if you get successful, you might want to hire help. This would help you choose good people.

 

5) Why indeed. Same question applies in RL. You prob don't need this for one off trades. But for big money jobs, or long term ones, it provides a level of trust and assurance for both side.

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I had a few more things i'd like to add which may answer some questions.

 

The light side of the force

 

  • Players who choose the dark side of the force may not want to work with you and may just want to rob you
  • Players from the light side of the force may wish to work with you again in the future
  • Contractors may wish to add more depth to their comments making finding clean jobs easier

 

The dark side of the force

 

Having a great rep doesn't mean the jobs you do are all clean you had a dirty job to do, you did it well you still get a good reputation for completing the job.

  • Players for the light side of the force may not want to work with you they may just want to imprison you.
  • Players from the dark side are more likely to want to work with you again in the future.
  • Contractors may not want to comment much on the job beyond "did a great job exceptional"

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Off the top of my head, a few of the kinds of jobs could be 

 

- Hauling a commodity from 1 location to another

- Hiring a security firm to accompany a transport

- Gathering a much need resource for a project

- Hiring to negotiate a trade or pact agreement.  

- Destroying something as bounty

 

Is the discussion more of a reputation system?   Or a player driven smart contract system, or a combo of both?  I think a contract system with a reputation marker is the wtg. I really like this a lot.  Anything that removes the npc aspect and drives the player to interact with the world (and other players) is a win.   Has anyone seen what Chronicles of Elyria is building into their new game?  They really take contracts quite seriously and there are player penalties if you break a contract, etc.  

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Questions:

-Who give the jobs

-What kind of jobs

-How much they must be paid

-What to work for anothers not for yourself

-Why it is better (more profitable or more important) than basic trade

 

-Players. So each side is interested in profit.

-No examples, so will use some basics. Bring ??? of "resource" to get ??? of $$$. Bring "materials from A to B. Kill somebody (under biiiig question.

Now I will compare with basic trade.

1. Resource harvesting. Employer will be happy to pay less than market price. It will take unknown time of waiting and no guarantee job will be finished. I don't know how trade will looks like, but "go and get it" looks much faster.

Let's have a look from employee's side. You need to bring resources for less money. Simple question, why to do that if you can sell on market for better price?

So for employer - what the point pay more than market price, if easier to buy? For employee - what to point to be paid less, if sell is easier?

 

2. Delivery or security.

Employer will pay less than full price of material (otherwise it easier just to buy).

Employee will be happy. But if price by default is lower, why not just take/steal production?

 

3. To kill somebody. I don't think it would be useful, but only this could make sence. Killing can not be sold on market.

 

-Price. Actually I wrote about this above.

 

-it was more rhythorical question. Work for own ideas is always much more profitable and enjoyable (collective ideas as well).

 

-I don't see how it could be better. Reputarion/comment could be abused easily. Player A asked all his friends to give +1, job done, 100% great player. Then deliver and pirate player instantly. +1 you will get for quest or trade, as you said, so double profit.

If anyone can write comment, I don't like pkayer A, all my friend write bad comments and -1.

 

____________

 

I like overall idea, I like direction, but it would be just for fun and fully not profitable. Also no any guarantees. I still do not see any reasons to invest time and resources for development of the thing, which is behind the basics of market.

 

P.S: I would say, ask NQ to allow Aplications (Overwolf as example). This kind of Reputation can be designed outside as little feature.

 

P.S: I understand, it could be interesting (especially before we started to play) for very limited and small amount of players. But if to compare similar games (like Space Engineers), nobody do that. Everyone work for themselves. Give job and open your location is more expensive than any possible job.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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I apologise in advance for the wall of text i answered 2 posts with this one.

 

Thanks for your reply hunter

 

Is the discussion more of a reputation system?   Or a player driven smart contract system, or a combo of both?  I think a contract system with a reputation marker is the wtg. I really like this a lot.  Anything that removes the npc aspect and drives the player to interact with the world (and other players) is a win.

 

In answer to your questions its more of a system to add depth to any player to player contracts including goods & services plus a system to add depth to player contract/quests/jobs here's some examples.

 

Example 1

Player A sells goods on a market

Player B buys goods from the market and goes to collect the goods

Player A gives the goods to Player B

Player B leaves feedback (like trust pilot) or doesn't its up to them on this aspect really

 

Example 2

Player A advertises a job

Player B has a good Rep and applied for job

Player C has a negative Rep (he's a naughty scammer) but applies for the job

Player A looks at the rep of the 2 players

Player B gets the job

 

Example 3

Player A Wants goods to be stolen from a transport ship

Player B Has done these jobs before with success so has experience but a poor rep because he is fairly new to the game

Player C Has not done these jobs before but has a good rep

Player A can view the 2 players rep and decide if he wants someone with experience or someone who is apparently more reliable or just ire the first person who applied for the job

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thanks for replying Archonious

 

 

-No examples, so will use some basics. Bring ??? of "resource" to get ??? of $$$. Bring "materials from A to B. Kill somebody (under biiiig question.

No examples because exactly what the game will be capable of or contain yet is largely unknown or undefined at this point but yes

 

Now I will compare with basic trade.
1. Resource harvesting. Employer will be happy to pay less than market price. It will take unknown time of waiting and no guarantee job will be finished. I don't know how trade will looks like, but "go and get it" looks much faster.

The scale of builds for some people will require the work of many rather than the work of few employing people to gather for you may be more expensive than the market You would pay them to gather the resources and return them to you, you may even provide them with the money to go and buy the resources. This is where the rep system comes into it's own who you gonna trust with your 20k units of kyrium if the answer is no one go get it yourself if the answer is someone with a good rep for delivering, then hire them.

 

More so you may be playing the game out of a safe zone and do not wish to leave someone would have to bring rarer resources to you.

 

Let's have a look from employee's side. You need to bring resources for less money. Simple question, why to do that if you can sell on market for better price?

It may not be for less money that depends on the agreement, you may have a role to play in what those materials are used for

 

So for employer - what the point pay more than market price, if easier to buy? For employee - what to point to be paid less, if sell is easier?

 

See above

 

2. Delivery or security.
Employer will pay less than full price of material (otherwise it easier just to buy).
Employee will be happy. But if price by default is lower, why not just take/steal production?

Yes but not if you are playing out of a safe zone or busy constructing something massive

 

Those options most certainly would be available to the employee and it will happen one of the deterrents to that to that would be the rep system plus whatever bounties get put on your head for being a pirate
 

3. To kill somebody. I don't think it would be useful, but only this could make sence. Killing can not be sold on market.

Some movies answer that question to name one of them bullseye from daredevil has a "good reputation" among bad people

-Price. Actually I wrote about this above.

-it was more rhythorical question. Work for own ideas is always much more profitable and enjoyable (collective ideas as well).

Thats upto the player

-I don't see how it could be better. Reputarion/comment could be abused easily. Player A asked all his friends to give +1, job done, 100% great player. Then deliver and pirate player instantly. +1 you will get for quest or trade, as you said, so double profit.
If anyone can write comment, I don't like pkayer A, all my friend write bad comments and -1.

One feature of  this system that i imagine is readable by anyone. But only the original contractor and the contractee would be able to post 1 comment each.

 

Yes it is abusable, in fact i stated it could be abused in my original thread but not in a way you suggest.

____________

I like overall idea, I like direction, but it would be just for fun and fully not profitable. Also no any guarantees. I still do not see any reasons to invest time and resources for development of the thing, which is behind the basics of market.

Reputation is a massive thing when it comes to buying or selling, i will pay slightly more for a product from a company with a good reputation than a new startup company because i know it has much less risk

P.S: I would say, ask NQ to allow Aplications (Overwolf as example). This kind of Reputation can be designed outside as little feature.

Dual Universe is a closed source game allowing third party developer to make things for the game would mean releasing some of their source code, for a developer to do that this early it could be very bad for them someone else could steal it.

P.S: I understand, it could be interesting (especially before we started to play) for very limited and small amount of players. But if to compare similar games (like Space Engineers), nobody do that. Everyone work for themselves. Give job and open your location is more expensive than any possible job.

Space engineers is a "multiplayer" online game they try to be a mmog but quite simply don't have the back end systems for it NQ do. The scale that NQ propose is much more than 1 person could handle

 

I imagine that this idea would be there to compliment any player driven market/quest system that is developed for the game and add additional depth to it. Thus giving players more tools to compliment a player based system 

 

Edit Fixed some italics

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Sorry, but I still do not see any kind of profit to design and release system, which do not bring anything except "There is chance this guy is good". Space Engineers (as exampled before) players do not try to do something like that (pointing on quests). It is waste of time for most players (if you not bored too much).

Economy, as much as I know about it, won't be popular, as soon player leave planet and go to build own base. Risk is too high.

 

Player who has target in the game:

-looking for most profitable offers

-looking for the safest ways

-do not like waste time (fastest ways)

-trying minimise any risk

 

So I don't believe much in economy or anything like quests from players. Same about 100500 ppl organisations - Risk is too high. Ofc it is unknown for those, who played with friends only or non-voxel games.

Time will show. But once again, sorry, you didn't change my mind at all.

 

P.S: Players make trade stations on servers. But they don't try to make quests, trade between players is very rare. It is about, when player need and want, it will be created. Maybe I'm more progmatic. Even if to release, few weeks/months after pirates will use these quests, we will see messages like "Idiots only give quests to unknown people". (Whole opinion based on known information only).

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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Thanks for the reply Archonious

 

You are entitled to your opinion and I am sorry to hear that you disagree with some of the founding principles the devs (see kickstarter video) have planned for this game.

 

I hope that my answers to your questions will satisfy others.

 

Thanks

Blacksythe

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Thanks for the reply Archonious

 

You are entitled to your opinion and I am sorry to hear that you disagree with some of the founding principles the devs (see kickstarter video) have planned for this game.

 

I hope that my answers to your questions will satisfy others.

 

Thanks

Blacksythe

Not a problem =)

 

Yeah, I don't believe in every idea. I don't believe in cities of random players. To build even small (3-4 building) nice location by few, players need to have 1. Plan 2. Similar view/design of project 3. Plan of work (sometimes, when 2 objects contact). It will be impossible within fully random people.

 

I don't believe (much) in pieceful cooperation. This include trade. Major part of players are EGO-players, they don't care, they enjoy dominance, they like power. Best way to show that - kill and steal. "Right of the Power" or "Sword Law" is in our blood. So any contact with player this is challenge of "Sword Law".

 

Game is not a real life, there are different laws here. Voxel game first law - take what you want, take what you can. You won't be prisoned, if you destroy/steal somebodies base.

It is not what I want to see, it is what games worlds are. Yes not for 100%, but you must agree in majority.

 

I want to believe it would be great cooperation, but as I said, I seen a lot and I prefer to be programmatic/realist.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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So... we can add a 5-star system akin to the forum accounts' system.


That way, I can coordinate the trolletariat on 1-starring my enemies and RUINING their reputation in the process.



You didn't think that part though, did you? :P

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So... we can add a 5-star system akin to the forum accounts' system.

 

 

That way, I can coordinate the trolletariat on 1-starring my enemies and RUINING their reputation in the process.

 

 

 

You didn't think that part though, did you? :P

 

-I don't see how it could be better. Reputarion/comment could be abused easily. Player A asked all his friends to give +1, job done, 100% great player. Then deliver and pirate player instantly. +1 you will get for quest or trade, as you said, so double profit.

If anyone can write comment, I don't like pkayer A, all my friend write bad comments and -1.

 

One feature of  this system that i imagine is readable by anyone. But only the original contractor and the contractee would be able to post 1 comment each.

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Personally, I don't like the idea of a public/persistent reputation system, for several reasons:

  • I spend enough time worrying about my resume and work history in real life. I don't want to have to stress out about it in the game too. 
  • It favors people who already have a good reputation, making it harder for other players to get their foot in the door. (Bad for community growth)
  • It traps players who have a bad reputation. e.g. Can't get work because of a bad reputation, can't improve reputation because you can't get work.
  • It create a dichotomy of "good" and "bad", with little room for interpretation. 
  • It mechanically favors "good" playstyles. DU is supposed to be a sandbox game, and if the game is designed to favor a specific type of game play it discourages diversification, making the game (in my opinion) boring. Sure, everyone wants to root out the pirates and con-men, but with out them the game would be pretty bland.

This is all just my opinion.  I think there should be a personal reputation system, where entities can assign a reputation to other entities but ti is only viewable by them. Thoughts? 

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If this is not implemented in game than someone could easily do this outside of game on a web site.

 

I see both sides to this, and really don't know which i prefer. What if you are really good at those hands dirty jobs, you might not want just anyone to see your job history.

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If this is not implemented in game than someone could easily do this outside of game on a web site.

 

I see both sides to this, and really don't know which i prefer. What if you are really good at those hands dirty jobs, you might not want just anyone to see your job history.

 

Very true. But at least if it's done third party it's emergent and player driven and people can choose to use it or not.

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Personally, I don't like the idea of a public/persistent reputation system, for several reasons:

  • I spend enough time worrying about my resume and work history in real life. I don't want to have to stress out about it in the game too. 
  • It favors people who already have a good reputation, making it harder for other players to get their foot in the door. (Bad for community growth)
  • It traps players who have a bad reputation. e.g. Can't get work because of a bad reputation, can't improve reputation because you can't get work.
  • It create a dichotomy of "good" and "bad", with little room for interpretation. 
  • It mechanically favors "good" playstyles. DU is supposed to be a sandbox game, and if the game is designed to favor a specific type of game play it discourages diversification, making the game (in my opinion) boring. Sure, everyone wants to root out the pirates and con-men, but with out them the game would be pretty bland.

This is all just my opinion.  I think there should be a personal reputation system, where entities can assign a reputation to other entities but ti is only viewable by them. Thoughts? 

 

Good points and opinions.  I got a sharpshooter medal in the military.  It went into my records and I wore a ribbon for that accomplishment.  To my knowledge it never discouraged anyone else to do the same nor was I chosen more often to shoot at something.  Probably not the best analogy but it's similar.  A better reputation, or skill will be favorably looked upon and it may provide an incentive to others.  I may have jobs for people that I'll prefer to hire @ a lower rep cause it wont cost me so much.  Thats where this is cool because it gives me freedom to choose and to 'size up' the person I want to hire for a security detail.

 

Thankfully DU will not be a level based game.  A reputation is one of several indicators that can add so much more meaning to my character.  

 

As to the concern regarding someone who got a few negative points by maybe stealing or bailing on the job, there should be an avenue to for that person to redeem them selves. Community Service at my house perhaps?  or... negative rep people will be highly valued by Pirate organizations.  (arg)   I think the system should be viewable by anyone.

 

What you are suggesting is privacy.  You have no privacy son.  You are living in the future.

 

@GalloInfligo, yes this could be 3rd party implemented!  

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I was under the impression that both parties would have to agree on something for them to be able to give each other rep. As in, you cant just go through a player list and give them all a bad reputation. Akin to ebay, both parties would have to agree on a deal, whether trade, purchase, or job/quest, and at that point only they can give each other reputation. A pirate would never accept jobs from those he pirates, so his reputation could remain untarnished.

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Personally I like the Eve contacts system where you can select a degree of good vs bad for each toon and this displays on the UI in some way.  There won't be npc's other than animal types and having a player controlled system could be abused. 

 

Simply be allowed to make your own personal contact list and believe me word will spread on reputations of toons by people quickly.

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I think there should be a personal reputation system, where entities can assign a reputation to other entities but ti is only viewable by them. Thoughts? 

 

If by this you mean a way for you to keep track of who you personally trust and who you don't, then I think it is a great idea! Even if a viewable reputation system such as what is being proposed here is implemented into the game, it would allow you to keep track of who you have had good experience with in the past, and may want to hire again.

 

If it isn't implemented, it would make it easier to achieve a word-of-mouth reputation: "Hey, Player X, I want to hire someone to do ABC job, you had that done like 6 months ago right?"

"Yeah, I actually tried two different guys, hold on, let me check my log. Yup, Player Y and Player Z. Player Y was a lazy bum, but I would highly recommend Player Z, he did a great job!"

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If by this you mean a way for you to keep track of who you personally trust and who you don't, then I think it is a great idea! Even if a viewable reputation system such as what is being proposed here is implemented into the game, it would allow you to keep track of who you have had good experience with in the past, and may want to hire again.

 

If it isn't implemented, it would make it easier to achieve a word-of-mouth reputation: "Hey, Player X, I want to hire someone to do ABC job, you had that done like 6 months ago right?"

"Yeah, I actually tried two different guys, hold on, let me check my log. Yup, Player Y and Player Z. Player Y was a lazy bum, but I would highly recommend Player Z, he did a great job!"

 I second that as well, being private lists and not public it would encourage player interactions like "Asking around if they know someone competent for this job" while removing the burden of having to remember it by heart.

 

Such list should have player-created tags and comments addable to detail more why such individual was better or worse than others like :

- Player X [builder] [Fast] [bit expensive]: Best ship I ever ordered! It was a little expensive but worth the money. The job was lightning fast!

- Player Y [Troll] [Rude]: Ruined my base for giggles and insulted me.

- Player Z [Guard] [bounty hunter] : Very efficient at his job whether it is guarding against or eliminating a target.

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