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mish1609

Subscription should not be its pay model

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So no one knows the system spec of the machine the game is going to be played on yet                   ?

I don't think so.

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We know... something:

 

 

Taken from here.

 

 

It‘s too early to outline exact specs. We plan to provide high-quality graphics in Dual Universe. To have an editable voxel game with a realistic look (with Physically Based Rendering) will require a medium range nvidia GFX card (or ATI equivalent) to play with basic graphic settings, or, a current high range graphics card for high settings. 
Keep in mind the time until release, a current high range graphics card today might well be a medium range graphics card tomorrow. In a nutshell: a high spec computer of today or a medium spec computer of tomorrow should suffice.

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Thanks champ, been browsing through forum hadn't seen it here yet so cheers.

 

So anyway I have decided to give this a go, my first subscription game of this type ever, not overly impressed by the model but Ive read heaps on it now and understand it a bit better , I still don't like it much but if its the only way to play the game then I can lash out for it.

 

I guess at the end of the day you can always cancel , but the amount of hours I put into these voxel building games , as Im retired, is a lot, around 5000 hours in the last 18 months or so, maybe it will work out ok if the sub isn't to expensive.

 

The other thing is once you start building stuff, you don't really want to stop so I can see me stuck in there building for days on end, it worries me that I might get addicted to this game and then get stuck with rising sub costs as production goes on, wait n see I guess.

 

But anyway yall have some more fodder to shoot at, my hand eye so ordination aint what it used to be !

See you all in the game I guess.

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This is going to be subscription based? AWESOME! I'm personally sick and tired of pay to win.... err I mean "free" games where you end up paying for a bunch of useful stuff anyway. Maybe we will finally get some consistent good quality game, decent customer service and a community that is passionate about, and want to actually play the game - like we used to have back when pretty much all decent MMOs were subscription based. 

 

I'm loving this project more and more by the minute, the more I hear about it. 

 

:)

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This is going to be subscription based? AWESOME! I'm personally sick and tired of pay to win.... err I mean "free" games where you end up paying for a bunch of useful stuff anyway. Maybe we will finally get some consistent good quality game, decent customer service and a community that is passionate about, and want to actually play the game - like we used to have back when pretty much all decent MMOs were subscription based. 

 

I'm loving this project more and more by the minute, the more I hear about it. 

 

:)

 

You sir i like  :D

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Ah... the "I don't want to pay for anything" good ol' thread, still going in its old age, still attracting the young with its tales of high adventures.

 

Yeah just gotta check it from time to time to school those who have not.

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Same for me! I was about to buy a 123$ pledge but than I noticed the DAC's. Pay to win and pay to pay.

I hope you aren't serious.

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Same for me! I was about to buy a 123$ pledge but than I noticed the DAC's. Pay to win and pay to pay.

Lol, no. It's not pay to win. PvP is not about "Epic Loot of the Edgelord Phantom Emo Wristcutter +1000" items that you can buy. It's about knowing how to play. The DACs just help those who have no time to invest into farming, to get the money they need to buy gear, in orer to go fight and die many times and lose their gear, as such is the nature of the game itself.

 

 

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I thought we shot this discussion point blank with a shotgun. Obviously it went straight through people's heads.

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Same for me! I was about to buy a 123$ pledge but than I noticed the DAC's. Pay to win and pay to pay.

 

you clearly have no clue what DACs are and why they are implemented. Wrong opinion is wrong

 

kkthxbai

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Thanks champ, been browsing through forum hadn't seen it here yet so cheers.

 

So anyway I have decided to give this a go, my first subscription game of this type ever, not overly impressed by the model but Ive read heaps on it now and understand it a bit better , I still don't like it much but if its the only way to play the game then I can lash out for it.

 

I guess at the end of the day you can always cancel , but the amount of hours I put into these voxel building games , as Im retired, is a lot, around 5000 hours in the last 18 months or so, maybe it will work out ok if the sub isn't to expensive.

 

The other thing is once you start building stuff, you don't really want to stop so I can see me stuck in there building for days on end, it worries me that I might get addicted to this game and then get stuck with rising sub costs as production goes on, wait n see I guess.

 

But anyway yall have some more fodder to shoot at, my hand eye so ordination aint what it used to be !

See you all in the game I guess.

 

Quoted the wrong post. Need to make that more evident!

Edited by _TE5LA_

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This is going to be subscription based? AWESOME! I'm personally sick and tired of pay to win.... err I mean "free" games where you end up paying for a bunch of useful stuff anyway. Maybe we will finally get some consistent good quality game, decent customer service and a community that is passionate about, and want to actually play the game - like we used to have back when pretty much all decent MMOs were subscription based. 

 

I'm loving this project more and more by the minute, the more I hear about it. 

 

:)

 

Please explain how a subscription model is any less Pay-2-Win than a F2P model. Every subscription game I've seen has a shop that sells advantages. There are good F2P models and bad ones. I don't like seeing all games get trashed with some bad ones.

 

For instance, STO is F2P and there is not a single item in the game that cannot be obtained while playing for free. Sure, you can purchase items that allow you to get more faster, but that's what any optional purchase does.

 

Very few subscription games succeed and will just turn F2P within a year or so if they don't fail completely. Then it is harder to stay afloat because the model wasn't geared toward F2P from the beginning, so they struggle with balance.

 

I hope this game succeeds, it looks pretty good from my telescope view. But when the dust settles, it's the game's quality and not the business model that decides its fate.

 

I also remember when all cellular phone plans were subscription based. I'm glad I'll never have to deal with those again.

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You can 'pay' for your subscription with in-game currency, so all you need to do is play. Don't need real $. 

 

EDIT: Also, whops, didn't realise this was the old thread. 

 

As for the last post - subscription model is "less Pay to win" simply because they don't need to rely on selling in game shop merchandise. You clearly have not played or seen many subscription games if you believe that every single one of them has an in-game shop, and if you follow these threads, you will realise that the general consensus is people want a sub model because SPECIFICALLY because they DON'T want an in game shop. 

 

They outlined the reasons for their decision, only time will tell if it will succeed or not. And as far as STO goes, the last thing I would like to see is yet another FTP Perfect World MMO clone when it comes to DU. You might be surprised how many people get turned off PWE mmo's specifically because of their model - that's designed to churn out a dozen FTP MMO's a year. Sure, you could go and mess around on one of them here and there - most of us have - but how many people play those games long term, with the commitment players have shown EvE online, or EverQuest or WoW back in the day? Precisely because they have invested into those games.

 

As for cell phones, you either grew up in a country with some weird regulations, or were extremely rich, since those requiring subscriptions were 'car phones' back in the 80s, which cost you more than the car itself. Prepay plans were around since the mid 90s, back when cell phones were finally small enough to comfortably fit into a bag, and cheap enough to become affordable by most of middle class. Oh and guess what, your pre-pay model is still a "pay as you use" model - pretty much exactly like a subscription for an MMO. You don't need to be locked into any 'contracts' and can stop or take a break (and stop paying) any time you like, just like you can with your phone. 

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Please explain how a subscription model is any less Pay-2-Win than a F2P model. Every subscription game I've seen has a shop that sells advantages. There are good F2P models and bad ones. I don't like seeing all games get trashed with some bad ones.

 

For instance, STO is F2P and there is not a single item in the game that cannot be obtained while playing for free. Sure, you can purchase items that allow you to get more faster, but that's what any optional purchase does.

 

Very few subscription games succeed and will just turn F2P within a year or so if they don't fail completely. Then it is harder to stay afloat because the model wasn't geared toward F2P from the beginning, so they struggle with balance.

 

I hope this game succeeds, it looks pretty good from my telescope view. But when the dust settles, it's the game's quality and not the business model that decides its fate.

 

I also remember when all cellular phone plans were subscription based. I'm glad I'll never have to deal with those again.

I have explained this before and apparently have to explain this again.

 

a Sub game is the least likely to become P2W. the whole thing of P2W comes from the fact that developers need to get money, so they give something awesome and powerfull to give people more reasons to pay. 

 

Sub models don't do that because it is more likely that the game will have a steady income. So they don't need any P2W items and are most likely to be 100% fair.

 

And the reason for so many sub model games to fail and turn F2P? THAT is because they were all mimicing WoW. 90% of the sub games were based so heavily on wow that the people playing them, thought "huh, WoW is much better and is also a sub game why do I play this"

 

honestlty without its sub model I doupt wow would have gotten this far in its lifespan, same with EVE for that matter.

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Please explain how a subscription model is any less Pay-2-Win than a F2P model. Every subscription game I've seen has a shop that sells advantages. There are good F2P models and bad ones. I don't like seeing all games get trashed with some bad ones.

For instance, STO is F2P and there is not a single item in the game that cannot be obtained while playing for free. Sure, you can purchase items that allow you to get more faster, but that's what any optional purchase does.

Very few subscription games succeed and will just turn F2P within a year or so if they don't fail completely. Then it is harder to stay afloat because the model wasn't geared toward F2P from the beginning, so they struggle with balance.

I hope this game succeeds, it looks pretty good from my telescope view. But when the dust settles, it's the game's quality and not the business model that decides its fate.

I also remember when all cellular phone plans were subscription based. I'm glad I'll never have to deal with those again.

 

Before those pesky skill injectors were introduced eve had a shop - for cosmetics only.

There is one common denominator: in EVERY F2P game there HAVE to be huge advantages when you buy something because there needs to be a reason to invest money.

STO, WOT, DDO - all the same. They NEED premium items to give you an advantage because otherwise no one would bother buying them and supporting that model. Plus the devs have to split their effort in F2P titels on two subjects: creating more content/new mechanics for the F2P game to keep people interested AND creating enough new premium items with wonderful advantages for the shop so people will buy them. This almost always results in less quality gameplay and a more determined focus on premium items.

 

As in eve (and DU) you CAN play for free - if you earn enough ingame credits. You don't need to P2P.

Eve is dying (for the last 5 years every month....) and with less and less subs they needed money - so they introduced those skill injectors in the shop. Which is, to me, some kind of P2W but then again: there is a player run market and EVERYONE can buy those with ingame credits. If you're successful enough ingame you can play for free AND buy lots and lots of those injectors (think it was something like several trillion isk for all skills to V).

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You can 'pay' for your subscription with in-game currency, so all you need to do is play. Don't need real $. 

 

EDIT: Also, whops, didn't realise this was the old thread. 

 

As for the last post - subscription model is "less Pay to win" simply because they don't need to rely on selling in game shop merchandise. You clearly have not played or seen many subscription games if you believe that every single one of them has an in-game shop, and if you follow these threads, you will realise that the general consensus is people want a sub model because SPECIFICALLY because they DON'T want an in game shop. 

 

They outlined the reasons for their decision, only time will tell if it will succeed or not. And as far as STO goes, the last thing I would like to see is yet another FTP Perfect World MMO clone when it comes to DU. You might be surprised how many people get turned off PWE mmo's specifically because of their model - that's designed to churn out a dozen FTP MMO's a year. Sure, you could go and mess around on one of them here and there - most of us have - but how many people play those games long term, with the commitment players have shown EvE online, or EverQuest or WoW back in the day? Precisely because they have invested into those games.

 

As for cell phones, you either grew up in a country with some weird regulations, or were extremely rich, since those requiring subscriptions were 'car phones' back in the 80s, which cost you more than the car itself. Prepay plans were around since the mid 90s, back when cell phones were finally small enough to comfortably fit into a bag, and cheap enough to become affordable by most of middle class. Oh and guess what, your pre-pay model is still a "pay as you use" model - pretty much exactly like a subscription for an MMO. You don't need to be locked into any 'contracts' and can stop or take a break (and stop paying) any time you like, just like you can with your phone. 

 

 

 

A subscription is pretty much equivalent to a cellphone contract. You're locking into the carrier and can't go anywhere else. That's what I'm talking about. Most sub games offer longer "contracts" at a lower rate and this locks a person into that one game. You don't want to play anything else because you feel you're wasting money. In a F2P game, I can play as many games as I wish with no worry that I'm losing anything by taking a week off from one. Now you don't do that with cellphones. You pay as you go (F2P) and leave and go to another carrier when you want and you aren't losing money. That was my analogy.

 

WoW has a shop with mounts, pets, helmets, and even a level boost to 100. Is that not pay-to-win on top of a sub? WoW succeeded because it was the first really large professional MMORPG. It has lost millions of subscribers since but still remains top simply due to its numbers.

 

Eve Online's system of earning ISK in the game to pay for a sub is highly unrealistic. It is nearly impossible to earn enough credits to buy the card for gametime. Only people who have already put years into the game and are in a large corporation may be able to do it. No new player is going to come close. I know people running bot mining programs that mine 24/7 and still don't earn enough.

 

I know a lot of "F2P" games pretty much require you buy something to get the good stuff, but STO does not require a penny for anything. All content is open to free players and anything a money-spending player can get, a free player can get as well. It will just take longer. STO has been around for 7 years and is still strong. World of Tanks and World of Warships is another example of good F2P models. Spending money doesn't buy you anything better, it just speeds up the process.

 

DU can choose whatever path they wish; it is their game, but facts are that the F2P model makes the most money for companies and this is why it is vastly more popular. As I said before, you have to do it right. I often joke of making a Tic-Tac-Toe MMO that is F2P: Everyone gets two X's and two O's for free, but you have to purchase additional ones in the shop. That's a bit like some of the F2P games, but I think it's unfair to lump them all into the same category.

 

And to be honest, a lot of games fail not because the game is bad or the business model is bad, but simply because the community is bad. I can't count how many games I've started and the community were such jerks that, instead of trying to help new players, they flame them for asking questions. These people don't seem to realize it is in their own best interest to be nice to others and help the player base grow, but a lot of people are turned off by it and quit.

 

And, BTW, I've been in the automotive electronics industry for over 35 years and mobile phones were not that expensive. In fact, most high-end cellphones are twice as much. Mobile phones were about $200.  Cellphones were never free or even cheap. Those "free" phones were $300 or more cost to the dealers and were given away only with a contract because that's how the money was made. This isn't happening anymore.

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So is the argument just about whether free2play is good or not at this point?

 

I think it might help to stop thinking about it in terms of marketing speak like "free2play".  What does that really mean anyway?  There have been hundreds of different implementations, some have gone well and some have gone not so well.  And a lot of them aren't even close to what i would consider free.

 

What's the point in debating which meaningless marketing term is better?

 

A lot of games that have used the term F2P actually require a subscription to really play the full game.

 

NovaQuark could slap the F2P label on Dual Universe basically as is,  and call the subscription a "premium membership".

 

But instead they are being honest and direct about how they plan to make money off the game.

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What wretched soul decided to bring this sad excuse of a thread back to life?

 

My poor "New Content" list is absolutely congested.

 

Someone else, but to be honest, if a thread isn't locked then there should be no expiration on posting to it. That's the point of locking and pruning.

 

Free-to-Play is simply any game that you do not have to invest money into to play. You might need to in order to experience more, but it's optional. It's like a coupon for free French fries. It doesn't mean that you'll get the burger and soda without paying.

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Sorry to be the Devil's Advocate here, but still, I have to stand by Warframe here. Free to play, enormously popular, and almost a purely cosmetic cash shop (in that everything else can be acquired by playing). There is definitely a ridiculous grind here, which is why I quit, but it still remains a good game.

 

I've played Star Trek Online for 7 years. I've never stayed more than 3 months in any subscription game. 

 

The same excuse of keeping new content is often made for games that you pay a high price up front for. Then they usually don't release any new content or just some very mediocre content because they already have your money. F2P games release more new content, in my experience, than subscription games.

 

WoW has been out for 12 years. It has released only six updates. It is subscription.

 

STO is F2P. It has been out for 7 years and released 19 updates.

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WoW has been out for 12 years. It has released only six updates. It is subscription.

 

STO is F2P. It has been out for 7 years and released 19 updates.

 

 

I think you are comparing expansions to updates.

 

Wow has had six expansions.  I bet it has had hundreds if not thousands of updates over the years.

 

But i still have absolutely no idea what that has to do with Dual Universe.

 

Instead of talking about other games, why not explain exactly what it is you would change about Dual's profit model.

 

Or just accept that they have already decided and move on.

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This thread just makes me sick to look at. Please just let this die.

 

Someone else, but to be honest, if a thread isn't locked then there should be no expiration on posting to it. That's the point of locking and pruning.

 

Free-to-Play is simply any game that you do not have to invest money into to play. You might need to in order to experience more, but it's optional. It's like a coupon for free French fries. It doesn't mean that you'll get the burger and soda without paying.

 

You may be happy with fries, but some of us actually want the burger, and don't want to pay $1000 for it. People sell f2p like it's some sort of empowerment, like it's opening the game up to so many more people by giving them choice and freedom, but that's a total lie. All f2p really is is the shifting of the cost of the game from those who don't care about it to those who do, driving that central group away until the game shrivels up and dies. 

 

All you are saying when you say that you want f2p is that you don't want to pay for and expect someone else to pay for it for you.

 

Now please, PLEASE, can this die? NQ has been crystal clear on this topic. DU is based on subscriptions. 

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