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mish1609

Subscription should not be its pay model

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A subscription is pretty much equivalent to a cellphone contract. You're locking into the carrier and can't go anywhere else. That's what I'm talking about. Most sub games offer longer "contracts" at a lower rate and this locks a person into that one game. You don't want to play anything else because you feel you're wasting money. In a F2P game, I can play as many games as I wish with no worry that I'm losing anything by taking a week off from one. Now you don't do that with cellphones. You pay as you go (F2P) and leave and go to another carrier when you want and you aren't losing money. That was my analogy.

 

WoW has a shop with mounts, pets, helmets, and even a level boost to 100. Is that not pay-to-win on top of a sub? WoW succeeded because it was the first really large professional MMORPG. It has lost millions of subscribers since but still remains top simply due to its numbers.

 

Eve Online's system of earning ISK in the game to pay for a sub is highly unrealistic. It is nearly impossible to earn enough credits to buy the card for gametime. Only people who have already put years into the game and are in a large corporation may be able to do it. No new player is going to come close. I know people running bot mining programs that mine 24/7 and still don't earn enough.

 

I know a lot of "F2P" games pretty much require you buy something to get the good stuff, but STO does not require a penny for anything. All content is open to free players and anything a money-spending player can get, a free player can get as well. It will just take longer. STO has been around for 7 years and is still strong. World of Tanks and World of Warships is another example of good F2P models. Spending money doesn't buy you anything better, it just speeds up the process.

 

DU can choose whatever path they wish; it is their game, but facts are that the F2P model makes the most money for companies and this is why it is vastly more popular. As I said before, you have to do it right. I often joke of making a Tic-Tac-Toe MMO that is F2P: Everyone gets two X's and two O's for free, but you have to purchase additional ones in the shop. That's a bit like some of the F2P games, but I think it's unfair to lump them all into the same category.

 

And to be honest, a lot of games fail not because the game is bad or the business model is bad, but simply because the community is bad. I can't count how many games I've started and the community were such jerks that, instead of trying to help new players, they flame them for asking questions. These people don't seem to realize it is in their own best interest to be nice to others and help the player base grow, but a lot of people are turned off by it and quit.

 

And, BTW, I've been in the automotive electronics industry for over 35 years and mobile phones were not that expensive. In fact, most high-end cellphones are twice as much. Mobile phones were about $200.  Cellphones were never free or even cheap. Those "free" phones were $300 or more cost to the dealers and were given away only with a contract because that's how the money was made. This isn't happening anymore.

 

True in eve you'd need at least some skills to be effective - 1 to 2 months is ENOUGH. AFTER that time you can make billions with just 1h of work each day. You cleary never played eve, or you have no idea how markets work. If you're too dumb to understand game mechanics and just want to earn enough with pure raw "power" (=bots) then you cleary deserve NOT to earn enough money for a plex

 

You can play WOT for free but you won't be able to play Tier X for long. For every game you play Tier IX or X you need at least 5 games with Tier VIII to get you enough money to keep going. So you'd need at least one prem tank. Quite not F2P.

 

NQ already stated that DU is sub based. deal with it.

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I've played Star Trek Online for 7 years. I've never stayed more than 3 months in any subscription game. 

 

The same excuse of keeping new content is often made for games that you pay a high price up front for. Then they usually don't release any new content or just some very mediocre content because they already have your money. F2P games release more new content, in my experience, than subscription games.

 

WoW has been out for 12 years. It has released only six updates. It is subscription.

 

STO is F2P. It has been out for 7 years and released 19 updates.

Don't like it, don't play it. Simple. The Devs have already thought this through, and most people can see the reasoning behind it and understand.

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A subscription is pretty much equivalent to a cellphone contract. You're locking into the carrier and can't go anywhere else. That's what I'm talking about. Most sub games offer longer "contracts" at a lower rate and this locks a person into that one game. You don't want to play anything else because you feel you're wasting money. In a F2P game, I can play as many games as I wish with no worry that I'm losing anything by taking a week off from one. Now you don't do that with cellphones. You pay as you go (F2P) and leave and go to another carrier when you want and you aren't losing money. That was my analogy.

 

WoW has a shop with mounts, pets, helmets, and even a level boost to 100. Is that not pay-to-win on top of a sub? WoW succeeded because it was the first really large professional MMORPG. It has lost millions of subscribers since but still remains top simply due to its numbers.

 

Eve Online's system of earning ISK in the game to pay for a sub is highly unrealistic. It is nearly impossible to earn enough credits to buy the card for gametime. Only people who have already put years into the game and are in a large corporation may be able to do it. No new player is going to come close. I know people running bot mining programs that mine 24/7 and still don't earn enough.

 

I know a lot of "F2P" games pretty much require you buy something to get the good stuff, but STO does not require a penny for anything. All content is open to free players and anything a money-spending player can get, a free player can get as well. It will just take longer. STO has been around for 7 years and is still strong. World of Tanks and World of Warships is another example of good F2P models. Spending money doesn't buy you anything better, it just speeds up the process.

 

DU can choose whatever path they wish; it is their game, but facts are that the F2P model makes the most money for companies and this is why it is vastly more popular. As I said before, you have to do it right. I often joke of making a Tic-Tac-Toe MMO that is F2P: Everyone gets two X's and two O's for free, but you have to purchase additional ones in the shop. That's a bit like some of the F2P games, but I think it's unfair to lump them all into the same category.

 

And to be honest, a lot of games fail not because the game is bad or the business model is bad, but simply because the community is bad. I can't count how many games I've started and the community were such jerks that, instead of trying to help new players, they flame them for asking questions. These people don't seem to realize it is in their own best interest to be nice to others and help the player base grow, but a lot of people are turned off by it and quit.

 

And, BTW, I've been in the automotive electronics industry for over 35 years and mobile phones were not that expensive. In fact, most high-end cellphones are twice as much. Mobile phones were about $200.  Cellphones were never free or even cheap. Those "free" phones were $300 or more cost to the dealers and were given away only with a contract because that's how the money was made. This isn't happening anymore.

1: Aaaaaaand? A subscription is, yes... quite alike a cellphone contract. but it is the most stable Pay model for a online game possible. 

 

2: The wow shop... (even if I dislike it quite heavily) is litterally as far from P2W as possible.

All the mounts and pets are cosmetic (except pet-battles, but honestly, nobody plays wow for PvP pet battles), the helmets (the three of them) are some of the most disliked transmog pieces in the game and don't even have stats, ONLY costmetic. and the 100 boost? THAT isn't P2W. It is P2C (Pay for convenience)

 

It is for those people that want to try a new class at max level (or level an alt to max level) but don't have the time that they are willing to spare on it, so they pay to get a character up high so they can do the interesting stuff. You won't win any PvP or PvE content easier because you do it, it is just for those willing to spend more money then time.

 

3: Wrooooooong, people constantly earn money to buy PLEX. Sadly have EVE (after about 12 years I think) implemented a "free" model. Where you are a alpha clone, but can't get the skills to fly the big ships and stuff... so you are basicly a grunt. But EVE didn't truly fail because of its model, but rather because of its difficulty curve and generally "grindy" gaming style. IT is REALLLY hard to start up in EVE, unless you find a good, newbie friendly CORP...

 

4: STO (Star Trek Online) is garbage. I am sorry, but as a new player trying it, it is pure shit. The graphics are ugly, the game is slow and clunky and much more.

 

Also, do you know WHY F2P models even works? It is based on a single concept in the game industry, WHALES.

 

WHales is what you call players who spend ENORMOUS amounts of money in the game, I am speaking tripple zeroes worth. Basicly THEY are the players that keep the game going, making sure you guys can play for free. Without them, POOF... a game goes up in smoke cause it don't earn enough money.

 

MMO's are SUUUUUPER expencive. They are the most expencive game type in the gaming industry, "F2P" isn't TRULY F2P... more like "Letting Someone Else Pay 2 Play" so "LSEP2P" 

 

5: F2P models are the LEAST worthwhile paying way of them all. It brings in a UNSURE amount of money and it is never 100% sure if they will get what they need each month, the reason it is "vastly more popular" now.. is because companies understand 1 thing.

 

People won't pay a subscription model, for a game they don't think is worth it. WoW, in all its glory, is the best MMORPG on the market (in pure content and player base) and when people start playing another MMORPG (that is like wow) they automatilcy think,

 

"huh, this game is great and all, but I could be playing WoW instead". IF the game isn't free, they have no reason to pay money to play that game, since they can play wow instead... BUT if it is free, then they can play the game on the side when they want, since it don't cost them money. You get the point?

 

The ONLY reason that wow has gotten as big as it has, is because of its subscription model, it has allowed it to gain a steady and safe income, with a clear way to plan and check their income (basicly they can look at their subscriber ammount and say ROUGHLY how much they will get by the next month) WHICH allows them to plan and produce content according to that.

 

They can take it slow, focusing on quality over quantity. Making grand things, while F2P games have to CONSTANTLY pump out loads of content and updates to keep the small, uninvested fanbase interested, so they don't leave for another F2P game. You follow me here?

 

THERE. You have gotten answers to everything.

 

DU is going to be SUB, and due to it honestly being unlike any other MMO out there at the moment, it could REALLY succeed. :)

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A subscription is pretty much equivalent to a cellphone contract. You're locking into the carrier and can't go anywhere else. That's what I'm talking about. Most sub games offer longer "contracts" at a lower rate and this locks a person into that one game. You don't want to play anything else because you feel you're wasting money. In a F2P game, I can play as many games as I wish with no worry that I'm losing anything by taking a week off from one. Now you don't do that with cellphones. You pay as you go (F2P) and leave and go to another carrier when you want and you aren't losing money. That was my analogy.

 

WoW has a shop with mounts, pets, helmets, and even a level boost to 100. Is that not pay-to-win on top of a sub? WoW succeeded because it was the first really large professional MMORPG. It has lost millions of subscribers since but still remains top simply due to its numbers.

 

Eve Online's system of earning ISK in the game to pay for a sub is highly unrealistic. It is nearly impossible to earn enough credits to buy the card for gametime. Only people who have already put years into the game and are in a large corporation may be able to do it. No new player is going to come close. I know people running bot mining programs that mine 24/7 and still don't earn enough.

 

I know a lot of "F2P" games pretty much require you buy something to get the good stuff, but STO does not require a penny for anything. All content is open to free players and anything a money-spending player can get, a free player can get as well. It will just take longer. STO has been around for 7 years and is still strong. World of Tanks and World of Warships is another example of good F2P models. Spending money doesn't buy you anything better, it just speeds up the process.

 

DU can choose whatever path they wish; it is their game, but facts are that the F2P model makes the most money for companies and this is why it is vastly more popular. As I said before, you have to do it right. I often joke of making a Tic-Tac-Toe MMO that is F2P: Everyone gets two X's and two O's for free, but you have to purchase additional ones in the shop. That's a bit like some of the F2P games, but I think it's unfair to lump them all into the same category.

 

And to be honest, a lot of games fail not because the game is bad or the business model is bad, but simply because the community is bad. I can't count how many games I've started and the community were such jerks that, instead of trying to help new players, they flame them for asking questions. These people don't seem to realize it is in their own best interest to be nice to others and help the player base grow, but a lot of people are turned off by it and quit.

 

And, BTW, I've been in the automotive electronics industry for over 35 years and mobile phones were not that expensive. In fact, most high-end cellphones are twice as much. Mobile phones were about $200.  Cellphones were never free or even cheap. Those "free" phones were $300 or more cost to the dealers and were given away only with a contract because that's how the money was made. This isn't happening anymore.

 

You can make 200 millions a day by simply PVEing (ratting as it's called in EVE) and within a week of actually pew-pewing you can get the money to buy PLEX. Oh, that's with a destroyer class ship, or a Tech-1 Cruiser, those Alpha Clone F2P ships.

 

If you go mining? You can be making 100mil AN HOUR by mining. A PLEX (EVE's DAC) costs 1.2 billions (as of this point, prices vary and it begun to drop again). So, it's all about not being lazy and seeking for "P2W" buttons, like in F2P games. oh and in EVE, I don't have to pay for energy refils, or have to go through paywalls to play the game. I bought subscription once, ever since I live off of PLEX. Why? Because I know how to make money and I know how to profit off of the markets in-game.

 

If you've been on this planet called Earth for more than 35 years and you cannot understand that :

 

1) Quality and customer support are paid for.

 

2) "Free" is not free and that makes you sound like a person that's gonna end up a drug mule by taking "free" drugs. Cause that's what F2P games are. They are meticulously crafted Skinner's Boxes, meant to drain you of your money as you press the same "P2W" button over and over and over again so you can lose to some other wallet warrior. You get hooked up to the formulaic colours, random loot-box / crystals opening, revealing shards to unlock a more "stars" quality of an item, and being sucked into an endless grindfest until they brasslly ask you for money.

 

Then goodbye to you sir. Hopefully your offsprings won't take "free" drugs as well, cause that's what F2P MMOs are turned into, drugs to satisfy gratification.

 

Which is why I don't believe you are a 35 year veteran of ANY industry. You are too much out for instant gratification and entitlement to not be a certified millenial.

 

And as for STO, it's crap. It's only kept afloat by people who wear yellow and black spandex as their pajamas and speak Klingon as their first language. And guess what, DU is about being a team player and playing as the red-shirt if it's neccessary. It's not power-trip fantasy like STO, thus, it cannot actually monetise by sellign "Captain Piccard's Amazing Hair Products" to boost a person's stats.

 

Why? Because the game revolves around dying, respawning, risk and reward. You can't have a Risk & Reward game and having it F2P. If you can't understand this, it's because Pay-2-Play guarantees a "buy-in" price to your risk being authentic, as you may lose your account and all the progress you have made if you are to act like an ape.

 

 

 

P.S. : Being good at automotive electronics does not make you an expert in subscription services. Cause clearly, you can't understand the reason the contracts went down, is because Time-Warner or one of its subsidiaries bought the mobile services providers long time back. You are still being milked in other ways by Time-Warner, but you are so blissful, you are not even realising it.

 

I hope you are not an actual automotives electronics veteran of 35 years, cause with that kind of clarity of mind, you are pretty much guaranteed to be one of the people that produce General Motors cars.

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I think we should leave it at that. NQ, would you be able to lock this thread? Its going around in complete circles with the same arguement made. If people are curious they can reread all 12 pages of debating, that should be enough info for them.

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I think we should leave it at that. NQ, would you be able to lock this thread? Its going around in complete circles with the same arguement made. If people are curious they can reread all 12 pages of debating, that should be enough info for them.

Debating? Dark.... IT is mostly people complaining about not having cash and other people showing them the truth. not much of a debate :)

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Debating? Dark.... IT is mostly people complaining about not having cash and other people showing them the truth. not much of a debate :)

Indeed, this is as much of a debate as debating if the Earth is round. Sure, there are people that believe the Earth is flat, but those people, we gonna leave behind when we colonise the galaxy. :D

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Same for me! I was about to buy a 123$ pledge but than I noticed the DAC's. Pay to win and pay to pay.

 

 

Novaquark's point of view regarding the definition of "Pay to Win" (and why the DACs aren't "Pay to Win") has already been clearly stated in this post.

 

Someone else, but to be honest, if a thread isn't locked then there should be no expiration on posting to it. That's the point of locking and pruning.

Free-to-Play is simply any game that you do not have to invest money into to play. You might need to in order to experience more, but it's optional. It's like a coupon for free French fries. It doesn't mean that you'll get the burger and soda without paying.

 

If a thread isn't locked, it's not an implicit authorization to continue it ad vitam aeternam.

Many forum have in their forum chart a line "No Necroposting allowed", which basically forbid to revive a thread that has ended a few months ago.

Why? Because a thread might make sense in a context, and might talk about something completely outdated in the current situation, generating unecessary confusion in the community. True, Necroposting isn't mentioned in the DU Forum Chart, as it wasn't necessary until now. This might be updated.

 

You took many shortcuts while making comparisons between games but as Lethys, Tnecniw and CaptainTwerkmotor already answer in details to all your points, there is nothing to add on the topic (the point of view of both sides have been explained in length). As it's also a discussion that already happened in several topics on the forum, and questions raised here has been answered many times as well, this topic will now be locked.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

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