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mish1609

Subscription should not be its pay model

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So... the game will be sub, right? I hope it will be sub, so we hopefully don't need to buy cosmetic shit :P

 

Maybe it will be sub with a cash shop for cosmetics? 

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Maybe it will be sub with a cash shop for cosmetics? 

 

as long as it doesnt affect the blueprints the players can sell i wouldnt care for it, as soon as it does its a pretty big advantage over other players.

On the other hand they said that players with sub would recieve "money" for the cash shop every month, so basically everyone with a sub would have some cosmetics, which reduces the effect quite a bit.

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I honestly (personally) don't even want a cashshop. IF it is a sub based system, I kinda want access to everything, not miss out even on some cosmetic stuff because reasons :P

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Personally I feel the p2p mode and being a sub is a great idea especially for this game. People can come check out the game with a free trial and if they like it they can sub, this helps people get a feel for the game and also helps keep trolls away somewhat coz theyd have to pay a monthly fee to grief people if thats what they wanted to do. Therefore the actual comunity can enjoy the game and the devs also can create additional content along the way. I would have no problem subbing to this game and getting really into (takes a lot of time to make a planet size city so i need to get to work haha) and will definitely help at the crowd funding stage as I really want to see this game take off and dominate the stars. XD

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Personally I feel the p2p mode and being a sub is a great idea especially for this game. People can come check out the game with a free trial and if they like it they can sub, this helps people get a feel for the game and also helps keep trolls away somewhat coz theyd have to pay a monthly fee to grief people if thats what they wanted to do. Therefore the actual comunity can enjoy the game and the devs also can create additional content along the way. I would have no problem subbing to this game and getting really into (takes a lot of time to make a planet size city so i need to get to work haha) and will definitely help at the crowd funding stage as I really want to see this game take off and dominate the stars. XD

Indeed, if you pay a sub it is much less likely that you are an ass... since if you get banned or hated, well it is hard tog et that money back xD

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hey guys i really just wanted to start a debate on the pay model so people think about it :}  i still find a pay to play model really inconvenient for me so paying like 60 dollars and then not having to worry that if i dont play the game for a day i wont have to pay 10 dollars to play it again

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also all the people who say its a scam are wrong sorry heres a video to clarify 

     yes they did use turbo squid models but only as designs they still built them in-game and they are still fully editable and distructable so they didnt lie and its all g

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I agree with many in the thread. Having a subscription base assures that only the most dedicated players will want to keep playing. It will also cover the costs for server up time, maintenance and further development. Had this been published instead of crowd funded, I'd be more inclined to say B2P but since it's more than likely going to made with our contributions, eventually that money will cease and they need to keep a steady flow of development going. I wouldn't be surprised to see things like voxel objects (shapes), flair and avatar customization fall into a game store where we can purchase cosmetic and quality of life items. Star Citizen is going to be sub through it's ship insurance even though it's billed as a B2P game. How much of a difference that will make, I'm not sure but selling items alone on a B2P game is going to be enough.. or will it? It depends on the level of commitment to said store. F2P is definitely not the way to keep continuity in a community.

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I can understand your sentiments on this mish, but it has been my experience that paying regular instalments actually keeps the quality of the game high and content consistent. In the past, I would not play any MMO that was free or micro-transaction based because the quality was usually equivalent to what you pay for, free = terrible.  :(

 

 

I would agree with you to a certain amount Ferran.  The Pay to Play model in the past has usually been paired with games of high quality and regular updates. But as the gaming industry has started to understand is that a p2p model is a high pay wall that most people are not willing to pay anymore.  I see many people play f2p or b2p and sometimes complain about the quality but in general they are still not playing p2p games.

 

This game potentially needs to have a huge community and p2p may make that hard to achieve. and micro-transaction for customisation's and non game mechanics changing this is extremely lucrative if done right.  maybe even Make limited edition ascetic items, maybe 1000 of a particular texture set for a ship. maybe so I can fly around with one of the only 1000 18 carat gold destroyers... Woot

 

That first part was a bit of an overstatement, and actually overwhelmingly untrue. The subscription model certainly has some problems, but it does not, as you say, force you to keep buying a game. Ferran's points are true...with a subscription model, developers have incentive to further update the game, or else players will simply stop paying and playing. Players continue to have access to better content, and developers have a steady stream of funds to further improve content. With buy-to-play, developers see a huge influx of money at first, but that soon runs out and players are left with the game as it is, or worse, even more expensive DLC and expansion packs.

 

Take Netflix - you pay monthly for access to its library of titles, not buying all of the TV shows and movies themselves - that would be enormously expensive. Dual Universe is similar - you don't pay for the entire game and all of its content upfront - you pay periodically for access to a constantly evolving and constantly improving system.

 

Astrophil, you are correct you do not have to keep buying the game...  as you have never brought it in the first place.  The p2p model is a lease on a game that perpetually can update bringing you new content.  but for a lot of people that has stopped being an acceptable way to consume media.

 

I invested (both proud and shamefully) about 6 years into World of Warcraft.  Do you know what stopped me from continuing to play?  the p2p model and then on top of that the shift to anonymity of the random queues.  the pay to play model did not stop people from being assh....'s and in the end they changed the game completely under me from a game I loved to something that was horrendous.  and what am I left with.

 

I spent more money on that game then I have on my entire steam library and now I don't get to play it and can't even see my beloved character on the armoury as I have been inactive too long.  This is reinforced by the fact Blizzard went after the largest private server who was hosting classic wow because they were threatened by it.  If blizzard would roll up a heritage server to go back and have vanilla or before cataclysm then I would buy a once of payment to play on it. Oh and buy the way, did you hear that WoW keeps loosing active players.

 

As for Netflix, this is a completely different type product and subscription on here makes sense.  but that is because you are not subscribing to one developer for one product.  Netflix is bringing you a multitude of company's bringing you regular diverse updates to all different type of programming.  This doesn't even come close to what you would be subscribing to for a single game by an independent developer.

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I am usually a pve player and crafter. Many people don't like to do these things cause they cause large amounts of grinding the game and I would probably for Dual Universe pay the first 6 months to learn the game and build up the ability to eventually go f2p through various in-game things. Or at least semi- f2p say only paying every other month so that I could continue to enjoy the parts of the game that take time away from the grind. I want to build a interstellar space station with many things that people will be needing as the travel between different locations including a market and sleeping quarters for people to log out where they are safe. As such I will use the revenues from this to pay for the game when able and when not able I will totally pay for the game to enjoy doing what it is I do. 

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To be as honest as possible the subscription model helps keep masses of unwanted trash players, that will never spend 1.00$ on the game, out of the game.

 

NovaQuark should not use the Titanic game model that has been going ever since WoW took over the MMO market.

 

Can anyone name me a memorable free to play / cash shop game that they have stuck with and played for any length of time? They don't exist.

 

Planetside 1 in its time was vastly more fun than Planetside 2 will ever hope to be.

 

TOR, Wildstar and all the others that start as pay 2 play and go free to play is because they overhype and break the ship in half. There's nothing wrong with their games staying pay to play, but they don't want to put any effort into making the game better so they cop out ditch the sub and put in a cash shop.

Nobody is happy with 50,000 to 300,000 active subscribers anymore its laughable that the industry thinks the gold standard is reaching 1 million active sub's minimum to keep a game alive.

 

WoW and EV.E are the only successful games out there, though both of them are bordering dangerously close to failure with their cash shop's.

 

If you overtap your playerbase for money they'll burn through the content and ditch the game, sure you get a quick buck, but eventually your' game becomes lost in the wind of all the other free to fail games.

 

Once you start putting shares, quarterly revenue reports, and stockholder opinions above the quality of your' game you've lost, you aren't a game anymore.

All they care about is hyping stuff up in order to drive "traffic" into the game, and subjecting them to the highest degree of advertising and pressure to buy garbage from the cash shops.

 

If you like the sound of this game, if you want a community, if you want content, support the developers in their quest to return the glory of subscription's.

 

I never played planetside 1 so I dont know if planetsid2 two wasn't as fun but I loved it and invested money into planetside 2 (until daybreak took over and those money grabbers can't crash and burn for all i care.

 

As for eve and wow boarding close to failure because of their shops, I don't agree. they are trying to stay competitive. that is the crux of it. 

 

Have you noticed the changes primarily have happened in wow.  lets see. 

 

  • Faster to level (this I feel is because today's gamers don't have the stick-ability to take a year to level and learn there toon, I gave up when power levelled tanks can't tank)
  • Able to buy mounts and pets (what is this, can't you little Adhd players grind for the satisfaction of when you get that illusive mount)

and 

  • Able to jump into random dungeons to level with people who you can't guild with because they are on a different shard. (Welcome to the game you whiny little shits who leave because the groups can't kill a boss first time even though it was your fault we wiped)  

 

Best example I have come across was a Warrior Tank who queue in random as a tank and then said to me a druid. oh sweet you can can't I will DPS. problem was I was the healer and told him to Tank as he queued in and I didn't have tank gear. he told me I was a loser because I didn't dual spec and carry tank gear.

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Well, in my experience... pay-to-play, and particular subscription-based games, have always delivered a better game for my money.  

 

I'd go so far as to say I'd pay upwards of $50 a month for the right kind of gaming service... I mean, think how cheap that is compared to almost any other form of entertainment, most of which last just one night! Dinner with my wife, movie with my nephews, hockey game with friends... $50 bucks/month would be a steal :)

 

Either way, I'm interested in paying people for services I use... ! But I don't like a monetization model that forces designers to consider it in their design.

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Activision and Blizzard have changed their stance over the past decade. When they launched world of warcraft the industry was a completely different place.

 

When you say the community of world of warcraft has become worse well I would say theres a multitude of reasons for it.

 

For a good long time they clearly changed their marketing and design goals. They gave up trying to build the original vision of wow, many quests and zones went unfinished, but instead of completing the game as it was. They moved on and covered up flaws by making burning crusade, and just kept laying on more expansions to hook people back in for a little while to grind for new gear.

 

The fundamental design of wow was never a player driven experience its a theme park. They have to earn money off it somehow, the evolution into selling in game mounts, and in game pets is both representative of the limits of the games design and the people they market to come and play.

If a game introduces in game pets, or pet pets as I call it, you can bet that the financial motives of the company are shallow.

 

Faster leveling, is a indication that the company over analyzed data on accounts that made a character and quit playing before reaching end game content. For one reason or another they think they are losing potential long term subscriptions because people cant access the current content. A game like wow that is in layers, oldest content, older content, old content, Current content where 90% of the playerbase is means that low level people with their first character that quit before reaching "end game" is lost potential. There are many other reasons someone might quit before getting to end game, but you cant reason with corporations that prefer to analyze data and not take gamer logic into account.

 

Micro transactions and mounts and pets, it's a plague to gaming in short. Nothing could be more disruptive to immersive gameplay than clicking a link to buy Gold Tokens to buy a different colored shirt in the game. Since Wow and Eve began engaging in it a steady decline in the quality of their community can be noted.

 

The random dungeon finder was one of the only ways to keep Wows many servers with growing and declining populations relevant. Some people play on servers with few people and others in a constant state of waiting queue. The dungeon finder was a good way to make it seem like you could always find other people online to play with. Of course it came at the cost of degrading the social environment on servers, you didnt need to reach out and find groups, or find a guild even, you can pug everything if you try long enough.

 

Because of the many actions taken, they had to adjust the game to require fewer players per dungeon, and shift the responsibility of victory away from group coordination to individual class competency.

Although being good at your class was too difficult for many people, so they had to reduce it from being good at your class to just being able to click a few buttons and move your character away from warning circles.

which of course leads to people being less involved with their character and less devoted to the game. So you have to capture more money during the short time people come back and play during expansions.

 

 

Eve will ultimately decline, maybe not anytime soon, but theyre unwilling to modify the game's user interface in a meaningful way. One of the biggest reasons people dont get into eve isnt that its "hardcore" but that trying to play the game is extremely frustrating.

 

Once you get ripped off or scorned by SOE or Daybreak, which dont be fooled by them being dumped by Sony. They are the same company they've always been, do not trust them. They have some of the rudest customer service around, they are completely unwilling to work with customers. They also have no problem mislabeling or deceiving you about digital products in their games to get you to purchase them and they refuse to put warnings up about compatibility or functionality. -5 out of 10 Daybreak, they're also guilty of just about every policy that leads to a piss-poor community.

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I played WOW for a very long time. and what you say is fairly accurate to why i quit saffi. i was a very competent player, and one of the best in my class on the realm i played. however i took a break for some schooling and when i tried to come back 2 expacs had been release and while i had zero issue with the grind to get back to max level, the nerfing of the classes and the overall dumbing down of the game really put me off. I dont think there is anything wrong with WOW on a base level. the issue with WoW and alot of games that stay around to long is they attempt to be relevant by making their games more simplistic or more appealing to different groups than who were playing them, in short they got greedy.

 

all games have a life span. WoW is past its prime pure and simple. it needs to die. it had at one point over 10million subscribers. and when they started to lose numbers they got desperate and released piss poor content and made the classes easier to play in an attempt i assume to balance the game. someone bitches about a player with skill and they nerf the class. 

 

 

the most important part of an mmo to me is the community, the ability for me to make new friends with people from around the world is awesome. but every game that iv quit is because while i did make friends in them, those friends all ended up quiting the game and the community of the game slowly declines and becomes a cesspool of elitist jackasses in some case.

 

 

 

i would like to say i hope this game only charges enough to keep the servers running and for the devs to release some new content every now and then. i feel that a mmo is 1 of 2 things for a dev. either a labor of love, make the game and keep it running for the enjoyment of your players. or its a money maker to fund either more expansions on the game or to fund other projects. sometimes those 2 things can cross but i feel alot of times its one or the other. and after awhile it becomes the second thing even if it starts as the first. i truely hope what ever the end result of the pay plan is. that it doesnt include any kind of cash shop, cosmetic or otherwise.

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It has to have a subscription . All in game assets are player built like minecraft..

 

Unless like star citizen you sell orenade voxel ships.. which really they would look better than what an average guy could throw together on a Saturday evening

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P2P is the only way to keep the game alive and evolving.

I agree slightly. I wouldn't say it is the only way, I say it is the most fair way.

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P2P is in my opinion the wrong way to go for DU. Eventually the game will turn into F2P and be considered a failure, like many other ambitious MMO have done in the last years.

B2P is the way to go but not only B2P. A somewhat higher initial price will give the developers enough funds to keep their game going and start working on updates. They can add an optional, cheaper subscription like Star Citizen already has, so players that want to support them more they can do it. Cash shop with pure and again not very expensive cosmetic items that will have zero effect on gameplay will be a nice addition to the B2P model as well.

From my experience players want to support and help their favorite games. Forcing someone to pay monthly for content just does not feel right to me anymore, it is an outdated system.

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From my experience players want to support and help their favorite games. Forcing someone to pay monthly for content just does not feel right to me anymore, it is an outdated system.

 

As long as Servers and Personal has to be payed for monthly, subscription will never be outdated^^

There are just to many people around today who others to spread their work for free.

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P2P is in my opinion the wrong way to go for DU. Eventually the game will turn into F2P and be considered a failure, like many other ambitious MMO have done in the last years.

B2P is the way to go but not only B2P. A somewhat higher initial price will give the developers enough funds to keep their game going and start working on updates. They can add an optional, cheaper subscription like Star Citizen already has, so players that want to support them more they can do it. Cash shop with pure and again not very expensive cosmetic items that will have zero effect on gameplay will be a nice addition to the B2P model as well.

From my experience players want to support and help their favorite games. Forcing someone to pay monthly for content just does not feel right to me anymore, it is an outdated system.

B2P is not a sustainable model for a MMORPG that wants to last for many years. Why? Because the money you get from the sales is limited, while you need to pay the team and the server indefinitely, so it would need a cash shop or a DLC/Expansions system.

 

-Noone wants a cash shop that give any sort of advantages. A Cosmetic only cash shop wouldn't be enough to mantain the game financially. 

-Forcing the devs to create Expansions every 1-2 years, just doesn't make sense. This game is not about dungeons and gear progressions, so they can't sell that. They can't sell "new maps" like world of warcraft, because the map is already huge and free to explore. They can't sell ships/stations since you can already build whatever you want by yourself. Creating an expansion for a game like this one, would mean creating new blocks limited in use to the ones that bought it. 

-Creating an expansion would even force devs to create content that don't really fit into the game (like unnecessary blocks) just because they need something that can be sold in the game. And maybe in this case they would not have time to rework, let's say the "contracts system", because it's not something that they can sell as an expansion, even if it is much more needed than those crappy new blocks.

-If you compare a B2P priced like 40$ VS a P2P with a 2-4 weeks trial, I'm pretty sure about who's going to attract more people. 

 

You're saying that many AAA games failed in the last year with the P2P system. Not sure about what games you have in mind, but if we take Wildstar or TESO for example, they failed because they were boring, not because the P2P system. 

 

A P2P system works in sandbox mmos, because they're always fun (if well made).

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B2P is not a sustainable model for a MMORPG that wants to last for many years. Why? Because the money you get from the sales is limited, while you need to pay the team and the server indefinitely, so it would need a cash shop or a DLC/Expansions system.

 

-Noone wants a cash shop that give any sort of advantages. A Cosmetic only cash shop wouldn't be enough to mantain the game financially. 

-Forcing the devs to create Expansions every 1-2 years, just doesn't make sense. This game is not about dungeons and gear progressions, so they can't sell that. They can't sell "new maps" like world of warcraft, because the map is already huge and free to explore. They can't sell ships/stations since you can already build whatever you want by yourself. Creating an expansion for a game like this one, would mean creating new blocks limited in use to the ones that bought it. 

-Creating an expansion would even force devs to create content that don't really fit into the game (like unnecessary blocks) just because they need something that can be sold in the game. And maybe in this case they would not have time to rework, let's say the "contracts system", because it's not something that they can sell as an expansion, even if it is much more needed than those crappy new blocks.

-If you compare a B2P priced like 40$ VS a P2P with a 2-4 weeks trial, I'm pretty sure about who's going to attract more people. 

 

You're saying that many AAA games failed in the last year with the P2P system. Not sure about what games you have in mind, but if we take Wildstar or TESO for example, they failed because they were boring, not because the P2P system. 

 

A P2P system works in sandbox mmos, because they're always fun (if well made).

very well put. but I would add that no expansion doesn't mean that they don't update the game as technology progresses

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very well put. but I would add that no expansion doesn't mean that they don't update the game as technology progresses

Ofc, i never said the opposite. I said that with expansions they're forced to add some kind of contents that can be sold (so usually not graphic updates, no reworks, no new tecnology, ....), while P2P let them free to choose

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Ofc, i never said the opposite. I said that with expansions they're forced to add some kind of contents that can be sold (so usually not graphic updates, no reworks, no new tecnology, ....), while P2P let them free to choose

I know :)  was just adding incase anyone tried to use against you lol

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No one likes pay to play i like the gameplay but the fact its going to be subscription based turns me off the game completely, ill be very sad if this stays-i wanna pay to keep a game not have to keep buying it :(

 

DU will have to upkeep their game servers (world) in order to allow you to keep playing for years to come. Who is going to pay for that bill?

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