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pvp is good, but is it enough?
It seems that DU is headed towards an endgame model that is entirely predicated on pvp which makes it feel like a giant battle royal with extra steps. Very grindy steps. is that sustainable?
Mining and industry are means to an end, which begs the question, to what end?
Can an MMO be sustainable without any exploration or pve? is pvp enough of a reason to keep you paying your sub?
Let's discuss this.
 

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5 minutes ago, DuskLight said:

pvp is good, but is it enough?
It seems that DU is headed towards an endgame model that is entirely predicated on pvp which makes it feel like a giant battle royal with extra steps. Very grindy steps. is that sustainable?
Mining and industry are means to an end, which begs the question, to what end?
Can an MMO be sustainable without any exploration or pve? is pvp enough of a reason to keep you paying your sub?
Let's discuss this.
 

Yes, I just want pvp. 

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Mh atm I'm not interested in PvP at all (at least here in DU) but I'm playing couse I like to build and I love starships.

In the long run who knows, we'll see, but I won't get into PvP until I can perfectly sustain myself, and I'm still quite far away from that point.

 

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The thing is unless they have the different solar systems as faction based systems with multiple solar systems fighting against each while working together with those that start there this galactic epic space war wet dream will never organically occur to where people are working together enough to wage a war against themselves vs turning all their power towards everyone weaker then them when it should be a civilization pulling together for survival with all orgs working to fullfull all the roles and making it so that anyone other than large orgs has enough disposable income to even fight in the first place. Who in their right mind is going to throw away potentially hundred of millions of credits night after night fighting a war when we barely even are given enough slack to make a small fleet to just perform daily functions that needs to last as long as possible before that 120+ mil in replacement parts hits.

 

There is never a point that I have felt with all the grind of grief loops under the gun to do anything that felt like I had enough of anything as a 3 man crew to sit back and feel like I finally have enough of a base, fleet, industry to say Ok cool now im ready to become a 3 man sar fighter wing to do anything. Since everyone is an enemy potentially I feel like I have only the allies in my crew rather than a civilization of allies for any need to work together. Since PvP is broken, years out of my price range, and trying to get an industry set up to make all parts to one day run a player hosted and connected market with market stalls is my only real long goal as I never see PvP amounting to anything more than lone griefers or at best when territory wars hit Zerg Griefers.

 

One the large orges take over all the bogarted juice tiles and caches of stockpiled resources of people who no longer play and finish taking over anything of value then nobody will likely ever build a base outside Alioth except large orgs and at that point PvP is totally dead no matter how much they revamp it since obviously they dont know what they are doing this far along in development to make it work.

 

But PvE will never work either since if they have weapons you will lose every time unless you get the jump on them and even still I expect nothing worth risking again potentially hundreds of millions for slight gains I could have gotten in technology know I could just as well let someone else take all the risk and that the market will likely be saturated with then soon enough and cheap enough to further not justify fighting npcs since it will take me years until I finally get around to PvP talents which will likely = PvE talents as well. Especially since i could just mine and buy it off the market for 0 risk.

 

But honestly tho there is no endgame in a sandbox game. Technically if you have all the new schematics and parts production you are already at endgame the same as the basic standard issue mining, same with pvp. This is pretty much 70% of the game being complete. It does not get much better from here it only get harder as resources become more scarce and grabbing ore just always stays just out of reach no matter if you have T5 everything its always just that much further away trying to break even once all the tiles are systematically strip mined or the mining bots clean the rest up in record time.

 

Missions wont help either unless it is in PvP protected areas just to add more cut rate abitrary tasks that likely wont pay what its worth to do with other players taking the same mission. It will be fun for a week.

 

NQ just does not have any reliable content built for longevity that isnt wrapped in 10 layers of sinks and grind that gets multipled by the requirements generated through your industry that keeps you chained down to the 9-5 mining job you are forced into.There is no other seemingly planned way of getting money other then mining, ganking ships, or perhaps grinding NPCs that will likely be 10x more grindy then mining or on top of it being griefed by space goblins every 5 mins which will make mining take 10x longer then it does now.

 

Endgame... Its not about how long youll play that defines endgame in DU is how much bad game design and grind/punishment/time&money sinks youll put up with before you hit your own personal endgame and find a better game. I dont think they ever thought that far out to create some kind of end game since they are essentially flying by the seat of their pants with a box of bandaids and elbow grease and some ductape to keep this thing from falling apart to just get to the grand opening.

 

Lol endgame... that was a good one. I didnt know I needed a good laugh this morning so truely thanks for that op.

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25 minutes ago, Kurosawa said:

It is a sandbox, end game is what ever you want it to be, don't be afraid to go off rail and try something new.

 

(although NQ is doing there best to put rules in the sandbox or run away with the ball :))

I agree that it is a sandbox but we only have so much sand to play with; dig a hole and grind for hours on end, make a ship, lose it in space, rinse and repeat. PvP gets old fast. The game is starting to feel like a grindy 9 to 5 mining job.  

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3 minutes ago, Warlander said:

The thing is unless they have the different solar systems as faction based systems with multiple solar systems fighting against each while working together with those that start there this galactic epic space war wet dream will never organically occur to where people are working together enough to wage a war against themselves vs turning all their power towards everyone weaker then them when it should be a civilization pulling together for survival with all orgs working to fullfull all the roles and making it so that anyone other than large orgs has enough disposable income to even fight in the first place. Who in their right mind is going to throw away potentially hundred of millions of credits night after night fighting a war when we barely even are given enough slack to make a small fleet to just perform daily functions that needs to last as long as possible before that 120+ mil in replacement parts hits.

 

 

1- I'm glad I gave you a good laugh
2- I agree with the points you made there. 
Working together in factions is far more enjoyable than small scale pvp. I fail to see the civilization building part in this game about civilization building. 

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For sure. We all came together and we might not like each other but working towards a mutual shared goal of mutual defense/oppense, industry, and logstics is the bread and butter of pvp game to even make large scale battles possible and as you said enjoyable if we arent all containtly fighting each other 1:1 or 500:1 or the whole server against you. It should be as simple as a faction chip that allows you to be in the Alioth solar system faction. And like the book of discord from EQ 1, once you take that chip off you cant put it back on again and you become either syndacte or space pirates against the union Alioth government faction at which point however big your org gets is your faction again the main faction you are born into unless you pay for your crimes and damages let alone bounty hunters and clearing your debt to society within each solar system. Or that by going pvp as syndacate you no longer have access to the market networks unless you own one or trade 1:!.

 

That is how it should work. Since this is space rome themed with the naming of everything you would expect the civilization we are into to be the empire of rome crushing all the space barbarians.

 

That is infinately more entertaining of a dynamic then we have now so that you can help the effort under your own terms rather than being forced into some kind of lord of the flies leadership you are your own sub contractor to the much larger efforts going on.

 

And besides, what purpose does taxes serve in this game if that money is not even used to create infrastructure, supply ships for the war effort / jobs, and everything else like defenses or the people to actually man them. Players could just as easily use a mass voting systems on territories or targets to hit and if there was a pining system when someone got pvp'd and an actual police force or military on top of it to keep space safer or to patrol for syndacate pirate org factions it again would be much infintely more interesting of a dynamic then we have now.

 

Right now I see us in a peace time economy since like 95% of the population likely does not pvp unless there is some kind of event like a blocade going on from the large orgs. Outside of that there is likely 1-3% of the population actively PvPing and moreso preying on unsispecting newbies or people in a bad spot not able to afford the 10-30+ million round trip cost of doing business using warp cells if you get targeted. That is the extent of PvP for some time to come. I am not even holding my breath for what comes out the other end of the PvP revamp.

 

Im not against pvp and it is part of the alure of this game for me, but at the same time being forced miner, then going pilot to make mining viable will lead me to crafting and then industry after im done. That will likely take me 5-6 years and I imagine ill never play long enough to experience PvP which is 1/3 the reason I joined in the first place. Mining, flying, crafting, and PvP along with the voxel building aspects I loved in EQN Landmark. It has everything in theory Ive been waiting years to play but its more of a frankenstein of other game features they saw and thought were cool but had no idea what those systems did or why they exist, or how they are connected to the rest of the systems to ever think long enough how to turn those fragments into a game that does all that stuff cohesively in a style that sets it apart from all the games they stole the ideas from in the first place. If they would have done even an inkling of research or giving it its own flair or personality it would not be in the sape its in

 

But since they didnt do that they have to throw every grind and sink mechanic or content gate ever in a devs tool box to try and mask that the emperor has no clothes let alone a real viable design principle since games are supposed to be fun and the only reason all these punishments, sinks, gates, and grind was necessary was that devs did not want players to progress fast so they had to add all that stuff to slow players down so they could develop more content between updates and expansions. The problem is also that opperant conditioning through RNG and psycological methods that then permiated the industry before the rise of micro transactions, non existant drop rates, epic gear, no drop, legacy, and p2w mentalities over the years they use but dont undersant that a sandbox is supposed to negate 75% of the need to do any of that since players are supposed to do all content generation and punishment ourselves inside a reasonable server ruleset and punish ourselves as some kind of mass milgrim experiment.

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Large-scale PvP can't be the endgame. I don't mean it shouldn't, I mean NQ physically can't support it. 

 

As a select few corps become more and more powerful through inevitable consolidation and conquest, the scale of combat becomes harder to manage.

 

The "cutting edge" tech (lol) really doesn't help -- large battles will always require exponentially more server resources than small ones. NQ can't support huge daily battles without incurring considerable cost. There's a reason Eve does time dilation...if you think NQ has "solved" the problem of exponentially scaling multiplayer, try doing even small-scale PvP...works like a dream, right? 

 

I get that DU was pitched as this grand single-shard concept where player limits don't matter and everyone can come together in big cities and battles...but the tech just doesn't work like that and never will, no matter how "optimized" they make it...which, using an off-the-shelf engine and off-the-shelf AWS servers limits what you can actually optimize. 

 

The only way there's a massive PvP battle endgame is if NQ can throw an army of hardware at it -- which will only make sense if there's a large population of casuals/semi-casuals that help subsidize this expense...and so far, NQ hasn't seemed that interested in mainstream appeal. 

 

TLDR: large-scale PvP can't be the endgame because their implementation of single-shard isn't robust, scalable, or affordable enough to support it. 

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Sadly its the only route most devs take is PVP wars are the only thing that matters. Or they go politics which is another route if we had massive infrastructure, roads, rails, ports, spaceports, power plants, and things like that to decide where to put down like some planetary game like sim city would add purpose if the different sassive prefab parts were basically tile sockets you could teraform around and add to in order to personalize I would say im game for that.

 

But beond politics, industry, commerce with actual market stalls and market links, there isnt much left but colonization, prospecting, teraforming, building, crafting, industry, and flying.

 

I think some kind of engineering core in which you can take like parts of a wing (Slats, flaps, ailerons, wing tips, winglets, and spoilers) being a part that put together makes a wing like a M Wing, but each of those parts should be modular so you could put like x2 L flaps for lift, 1M aileron since it just provides roll more than lift, and the rest of the parts so you can build your own custom wing or use whatever voxels you like vs the regualr skin.

 

Then take that to some kind of engineering core that can give you a blueprint. Then once you have a blueprint there should be some way to make a schematic of that custom part. Once you have the schematic you can then mass produce that custom wing with your part onto the market and giving it a <M Stabilizer (model).

 

Then NQ just needs to make the parts each have a function and instead of having to come out with an L wing they come out with the smaller parts which can pretty much be doubled and just use the same exact model the whole time. Double the power and just let us make it all through straight up engineering.

 

Let me ask you... What are all those industry guys supposed to do when they hit start? Sit back and if you do it right you never have to touch it again and everything does it all for you. So again after you put it all down once what is there left for industrialists to do but engineer items to put into their machine to set them apart from everyone else.

 

The real end game needs to be environmental over anything else since we basically are doing everything in 1000% optimal conditions with 0 danger on planets and if you cant pvp in them the planet should. I made a lengthy post in the gas giant suggestion thread. That is really the other missing half of the game. It is just too easy to overmine without wind and other factors or storms to make things more survival then they are without going to the lengths of eating food or being griefed constantly by space goblins because it should be hard enough to land or leave as it is just parking it in 380mph winds like on jupiter. If your min sustained lift on your ship is like 135 how do you think you are going to land or even if you do that 140kmph min sustained lift wether you are in the seat or not should still be in play if you dont put it in a hanger is like the jist of it.

 

With the sandbox the content is us creating it with enough plastic tools, army dudes, and legos to make playing in JC's sand box fun enough to go back again out of all the possible hundreds of sandboxes with cooler people and less rules or fun rules. Personally I dont need to go to the sandbox at JC's house if all he does is tell me I got to wait 5 months to play with the army duded bc of his limits, or that when I play with the plastic shovel in his sandbox I can only make a scraping motion instead of do what I want. Or that he does not like how I play with his legos and so he is just going to take them and go inside and is screaming at me to leave but im like dude I paid you to play in your sandbox bro when do I actually get to do anything? Honestly I dont like how he hides the legos in the sand. Besides I want to make the lego set I picture in my head but JC only put so many legos in the sand and most of them have been found and used before I got there. I keep asking for more legos to be put in or another sandbox next to the other one but im still waiting patiently.

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Without massive, massive changes over the next year, the only kind of endgame even possible is going to be imagination of the person playing. Such as most quanta, biggest ship, fanciest design, and none of it will be a shareable experience with other players unless they get satisfaction from youtube.

 

A lot of great points are made on this thread to be sure, but the way the game was originally advertised it seemed there really was never an endgame to reach.

 

However, to answer OP from my own pov. Endgame would be a combination of money, quality of life elements, pvp defense/offense, as well as pve in expanding and improving civilization as a whole.

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2 hours ago, Deintus said:

Without massive, massive changes over the next year, the only kind of endgame even possible is going to be imagination of the person playing. Such as most quanta, biggest ship, fanciest design, and none of it will be a shareable experience with other players unless they get satisfaction from youtube.

 

A lot of great points are made on this thread to be sure, but the way the game was originally advertised it seemed there really was never an endgame to reach.

 

However, to answer OP from my own pov. Endgame would be a combination of money, quality of life elements, pvp defense/offense, as well as pve in expanding and improving civilization as a whole.

The game was advertised as a civilization building game. My issue with the direction ZDU is going is that there are no mechanics which promote large scale cooperation and large scale conflict (pvp). The minute someone buys a lot next to me, the only thought I have is "as soon as pvp rolls out, not only do I have to kill my neighbor, but I also need to make sure that he is completely bankrupt so he can never do the same to me"" that is a really terrible way to play. Just awful. 

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8 hours ago, DuskLight said:

The game was advertised as a civilization building game. My issue with the direction ZDU is going is that there are no mechanics which promote large scale cooperation and large scale conflict (pvp). The minute someone buys a lot next to me, the only thought I have is "as soon as pvp rolls out, not only do I have to kill my neighbor, but I also need to make sure that he is completely bankrupt so he can never do the same to me"" that is a really terrible way to play. Just awful. 

This is how I feel it's going as well. Honestly, this is the only game I had ever played that gave me an overwhelming sense of paranoia of other players while giving me zero sense of security.

 

Someone else had mentioned this very thing, and I don't know how many players feel the same way, but the fact that anyone feels it at all is a recipe for disaster. Think about it. If the hexes around you begin bristling with defenses, guns, etc. How long will it be before someone strikes first? And not out of territorial conquest, just out of simple fear the other guy will get stronger and strike you if you wait to long.

 

That is one thing (of many) the game sorely lacks. A sense of unity.

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

I think you meant "box". The sand is still in development.

 

I assure you it has been developed as all the planets are made of nothing but sand. Thats the problem there is no need for miners at endgame as there is nothing to mine but sand. Sand castles are not good endgame when the mats run out and you have to resort to teraforming to make structures.

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On 1/7/2021 at 7:23 AM, Deintus said:

Without massive, massive changes over the next year, the only kind of endgame even possible is going to be imagination of the person playing. Such as most quanta, biggest ship, fanciest design, and none of it will be a shareable experience with other players unless they get satisfaction from youtube.

Yep, honestly its future of DU, if NQ not turn tide very seriously -- sort of dusty voxel museum with anemic skirmishes from deadly bored "PvPers". And player numbers is key here, I very worried on this front.

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And this is why I quit the game! From mechanical perspective, something is designed how it is to serve a purpose, they are not there to make something look exotic unless that is the end purpose. Now what is the point of housing something if they serve no purpose? In this game, you will do with just a floor and if you run out of horizontal space, make more floors on top of it. What is the point of making columns for these floors if they provide no support and you can do without them in this game? Instead they only serve as obstructions! 

 

This game lacks mechanical mechanics for you to include mechanical designs in this game to serve no purpose but an obstruction in the end. So what are we designing for? Yes, it is all for the looks! What is worse is you have to go through voxelmancy to achieve non-basic shapes for the purpose of looks! 

 

This is a beauty contest game and a mining simulator! 

 

My job in real-life is to maintain planes. Every plane model (fixed-wing and rotary wing) has a type certificate. a type certificate tells you the specification of the plane. My job is to maintain these planes in accordance with the maintenance manual and type certificate and perform compulsory ADs/SBs. My job is not to design these planes, my job is to know how they work so I know the purpose of their components and design. The game is not like this, there is nothing mechanical in this game! People are putting static wicks on their planes like they dissipate shocks lol! They dissipate nothing so why would you put them? For the looks man!

 

Everything here has been great while it lasted, alright! I'm moving to Starbase, atleast you got mechanical mechanics there. When you design something, they gonna serve a purpose, otherwise it is a beauty contest.

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Endgame... I always find that an amusing notion. In any other MMO what are you really striving for? Oh I get to go on a raid and kill XYZ bigger baddy then the ones I normally slay. I might get a chance at some loot that will simply allow me an easier time killing the baddies I fight or the stats I need to fight the next baddy. They are all just 'encounters' put on a power curve. Give your average bunny the same stats under the hood as Lord Demon Raid Boss and wala the bunny is no different.

 

Every other MMO out there spoon feeds the player with a simple liner curve of progressively 'harder' monsters which is nothing more then gating the same game loop with some different graphics and perhaps some combat mechanics tied to that liner progression curve.

 

DU lacks this simple never ending repeating game loop players are used to from MMO's. Here you can actually change the universe by banding together with other players and actually change the game experience for other players then yourselves. What they see, what they buy, what they fly, where they live, what missions they do , even what game loops they spend their time on. All these things are meant to eventually be player controlled. Every time I see someone talking about end game it's always form the perspective of "what will the devs spoon feed me to make me think I'm making 'progress'".

 

Maybe your asking the wrong question. What is the end game? -> What is YOUR endgame?

 

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18 hours ago, Xennial said:

Every other MMO out there spoon feeds the player with a simple liner curve of progressively 'harder' monsters which is nothing more then gating the same game loop with some different graphics and perhaps some combat mechanics tied to that liner progression curve.

There is that (not)new concept called Sandbox MMO. There are about a dozen successful MMO games using it. You are probably playing one that has a chance to become "successful sandbox MMO" too...

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On 1/9/2021 at 4:51 PM, Eternal said:

And this is why I quit the game! From mechanical perspective, something is designed how it is to serve a purpose, they are not there to make something look exotic unless that is the end purpose. Now what is the point of housing something if they serve no purpose? In this game, you will do with just a floor and if you run out of horizontal space, make more floors on top of it. What is the point of making columns for these floors if they provide no support and you can do without them in this game? Instead they only serve as obstructions! 

 

This game lacks mechanical mechanics for you to include mechanical designs in this game to serve no purpose but an obstruction in the end. So what are we designing for? Yes, it is all for the looks! What is worse is you have to go through voxelmancy to achieve non-basic shapes for the purpose of looks! 

 

This is a beauty contest game and a mining simulator! 

 

My job in real-life is to maintain planes. Every plane model (fixed-wing and rotary wing) has a type certificate. a type certificate tells you the specification of the plane. My job is to maintain these planes in accordance with the maintenance manual and type certificate and perform compulsory ADs/SBs. My job is not to design these planes, my job is to know how they work so I know the purpose of their components and design. The game is not like this, there is nothing mechanical in this game! People are putting static wicks on their planes like they dissipate shocks lol! They dissipate nothing so why would you put them? For the looks man!

 

Everything here has been great while it lasted, alright! I'm moving to Starbase, atleast you got mechanical mechanics there. When you design something, they gonna serve a purpose, otherwise it is a beauty contest.

 

Its funny you mention needing structural supports being required to built tallet...

 

I said screw building everything with static cores unless I need to hollow out that space for a specific pupose like an elevator or industry sections, chilling areas which require millions of honeycombs as is and set out to make teraforming work for me rather than having to use exclusively voxels vs teravoxels.

 

Anyhow, there is a quszi basic framwork in the game right now tht requires some primitive version of requiring structural supports.

 

Let me explain:

  • Using the flatten tool you can sheer off a surface
  • if that surface level drops below the surface you are trying to create it will attempt to fill it in
  • The flatten tool will only pull that lower surface up until the point where it starts to create a sort of laddice rebar beam looking lines
  • If you try to pull those lines out it simply will not let you unless you fill in all the little divits before the flat surface can be pushed out any further or the rebar beam looking lines. You can also at any time fill in the areas with teravoxels and flatten the surface to extend some of it but even still there is a limit to how much you can pull the surface up and out.
  • Knowing that you can do the same thing with dropping however high you want a structure to be by filling it in.
  • You can create hollow space since for me right now it seems to create 20ft high ceilings.
  • You can then plane off the top like the soils
  • But it will not let you extend that floor out beyond a certain point like it has some sort of primitive structural system built into the engine.

And personally I think that there should be a build mode to add honeycomb to the terrain independent of the cores so that you can add light elements in mines or make actual interesting locations.

 

If voxel building was not bound to a core and you could actually build up a territory without 800 dynamic cores for anything really cool at the other end in size or scope in a sci-fi game should be independent of cores unless you want to fill that space with a purpose like industry, infrastructure (powerplant), markets, commercial, residential, and allowing players to build up the land itself with build mode for taraforming just the space you initiated build mode in just so we can shape the land or smooth it better with the precision of build mode and the shapes from voxel building translated to teravoxels.

 

Or being able to risk assets or open the game up to more easter eggs if you can just put voxels or elements down like the hoth base in star wars where they didnt need a territory unit to make that base they just did until the empire discovered it with the probe droid and smashed it. They didnt declare war, nobody really owned the land to begin with, and the rebels put down all those parts and things to run their base someone could steal at any time.

 

I think it should be the same with du where you can just dig a hole turn it into a mine with disposable track systems or vehicles that are mobile containers in some kind of industrial mine train type setup. Since nobody owns the mine you should still be able to place the elements for the track, supports, mine container cars, mine train, etc along with being able to place lights or voxels/teravoxels and truely create something cool out of it all that someone could come along and steal or help.

 

But yeah there is a primitive form of voxel architecture if we had to physically build up the landscape organically with unbound voxels from cores exclusively with teravoxels having its own voxel build mode and actual stone textures and building since pretty much builders add function to a core and a teraformer should be building the foundations for that to fit the building cores.

 

.02c

 

Edit:

 

Or that the industry is an illusion that you put all the time in the talents to just start the machines, the schematics to make something worthwhile and then... never be needed again since you only have to start the machine and if you set your industry up right you never have to touch it EVER AGAIN. Nothing to do and you cant even fly if you wanted to or mine to help out. You are stuck in limbo since you cant do anything else but you are now dedicated and invested in th 6 year adventure of the crafting role.

 

What I want to see at the bare minimum is modular pieces that make up items that have a physical purpose in game tht can be used in any number of other functions like the pistons for landing gear depending on size being able to move element based platforms up and down side to side. Or that a wing or stabilizer is actually made up of all the pieces it represents like slats, ailerons, flaps, spoilers, wing tips, and winglets. Or engines having turbines, thruster banks, manifolds, thruster cowls that retract like on an f-15 that focus the jet exaust instead of needing 10+ meters space around an engine. We could take all these element fragments and we dont even need the devs to make XL, XXL, or XXXXXXXXXXL to be designed, we just need an aileron to start as 1x1x10 voxels to double to 2x2x20/3x3x30/4x4x40/5x5x50 and let us make the actual items ourselves that fit the scope and function we need through a modular based approach.

 

Then allowing industry people to do something by having some kind of engineering core to assemble custom items out of element fragments to physically build a custom wing. For instance the custom wing is comprised out of specific scale (XS, S, M, L+) restrictions or below scale, but allows you to fill up say a specific set space with the modular parts to make a wing.

 

Once you have created an engineering diagram of a wing it should be turned into a schematic and then allowed to be mass produced through the industry. The biggest issue right now is there is nothing to do and so giving industrialists more customization and things to tinker around with is what that role really needs or the reason to talk to pilots with a little R&D to see what they need more of for particular specifications for atmo/space/hauling/combat and making custom parts and having new markets added for after market parts only for custom sales or custom parts made for specific ship specs to become a thing.

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