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“Marketplace Heist” Response

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15 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

You're the one who started using RL analogies talking about barring your door, et cetera. I felt you might be able to connect with those or understand them, so I used them. Reading through your post you seem to have me confused with someone else. You should read the username of the person you quote before posting. It's usually a good idea. 

 

Why should I ¿brush it off? I literally have nothing to do with scoopy other than agreeing that the reason he was banned is spurious and based off of butthurt rather than rules or the EULA. I've kept up a bit of a dialog with uber as he seems like a decent guy caught up in something he didn't deserve. 

 

As for the EULA, you are twisting it a EULA is an agreement between players and the [/b] developers[/b] not a set of rules for all players to abide by but a license agreement. Find something in the EULA that says that players can be banned when a developer fucks up. The OP reads like a straight up whine from the developers with the "this isn't a quick fix" line being the icing on the cake. That reads, to me as "thanks to what you did we needed to fix things rather than keep collecting your money every 3 months" 

As for it being a "developer owned construct" maybe the developers should have put in some code so that these developer owned constructs can never be tampered with by players. How's that for an amazing idea, its almost like what the developers should have learned from this, rather than getting their game negative publicity on multiple sites for childish behavior. 

 

As for the "no sign" the sign is that you can interact with the item. That is the sign. It doesn't have to be a giant neon billboard. 

 

"There is no bad press surrounding this" sure there isn't. A video from a popular YouTuber with nearly 100k subs is no bad press. Keep living in your own little world. You also keep referring to me as someone who took part in this, one of the 4 players it would seem. I'll state again, I am a third party. 

 

You're saying that people do not need thanked to beta test then are saying that beta testing is a job in the very next paragraph. Have you ever had a job? A job isn't paying someone to use their unfinished product. 

 

As for beta testers and pen testers, they are one and the same. This flaw was known about for a long time before this incident made the developers have to do something. In fact (from what I've heard) this was reported in discord DM to a GM before they decided the developers didn't care and as such they showed what happens when you snooze; you lose. 

 

Finally (thank god) just because it doesn't say something in a EULA doesn't mean the developers can do what they want then cite said EULA for the reason they dished out bans. That just further weakens their position. An EULA is like a set of demi-laws or rules and as such it must be throrugh. You don't just get arrested for "you were breaking a law that isn't a law yet but you made me work so you're goin to jail buddy". 

 

Now I'll be going to bed, I've had enough of your tirades and verbal valium to practically put me into winter hibernation. One last thing though, why do you keep saying "mental gymnastics" you've said it at least once per post. It is extremely repetitious. 

Sorry to confuse you with other people but you have to admit it is difficult when you all parrot the same ridiculous excuses for poor behavior. The reason he was banned was for purposefully messing with developer owned constructs and acting like it is fine to do. You are pretending like only the devs are to blame and nobody else is at fault for anything, which is empirically incorrect.

 

What does an agreement between devs and players have to do with there being rules in the agreement specifically for players? Nothing. I am dev and I release EULA that says, "players can do this this this but not that that that". It isn't beholden to me as a developer. You as a player must agree to the rights and restrictions set forth by the devs in the EULA. There is no equality or equity to it. The developers didn't "fuck up" they made a small mistake. The actual fuck up is players taking advantage of the mistake, which can get you banned. There was nothing to fix for the devs in this context except maybe a reminder to always check permissions on dev owned constructs, prior to the actions that broke the market data. This isn't an instance of some long overdue bug that was never addressed until player did X and now suddenly it is being addressed. If it was something they knew about and put on the backburner, it still doesn't justify taking advantage by players.. All they did was paste the market back in place and put the data that they apparently do have backups for, back into the terminals. Oh and maybe actually set the permissions this time. Not doing this is no excuse to go rampant with dev owned things.

 

The developers have nothing to learn from here except their normal mistake. They made a Human mistake because they're people. The players who took advantage willfully attempted to do what they knew they shouldn't do, and will hopefully learn from their ban not to do that kind of thing elsewhere.

 

The sign is not being able to access the item. This logic is exactly the same as saying an unlocked door is a sign you have an invitation to enter. It is not.

 

Firstly, all press is good press. Secondly, one video by one YouTuber isn't going to do anything except bring more attention to the game. Even if it was more, thats all they are doing.

 

Yes, people do not need to be thanked to beta test. You are paying to test the game, paying to do a job that normally developers would hire people to do in-house. They do not have to when players will either do it for free or pay to access that.

 

Beta testers and pen testers are not the same. I explained the very obvious differences.

 

Devs can do whatever they want with their game. It is their game. EULA is a set of rules for players to agree to before getting access to the product. You don't agree you do not get access. The EULA is quite clear when you understand how to read, that developer made anything is not subject to rules for players. I keep saying mental gymnastics because everyone parroting your arguments is jumping through illogical hoops to come to insane conclusions. It is mental gymnastics to read, "Come in and do whatever you want" into, "RDMS wasn't set properly for this developer made construct", or "Devs said RDMS theft was allowed and they wouldn't get involved as an organization into any of it" into "We cannot get involved if a individual or org uses RDMS theft against other players". It is all very tiresome that you continue to rail against justified punishment. I have already said I agree that permabanning from everything is probably too harsh. That is not me saying there should be no punishment, however.

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1 hour ago, Ram said:

Firstly, all press is good press.

 

I'd say that people seeing a Youtube video and then actually coming here to post about how they'd never consider the game due to this nonsense is not exactly "good press". There's many people right now, who never heard of DU before and never actually came here, talking smack and advising their friends to stay away from the game. How is that good press?

 

Yes, what these guys did was against EULA/TOS and yes, there should be consequences. Had NQ followed this line, smacked these guys over the head, emptied their in game wallets and locked them out for a while then I'd say fair enough and should have known better.

 

instead NQ pretty much went out of their way to try and set these guys up as maliciously using an exploit (which they did not), not bothering to report (which they did) and deliberately and with intent o do so wreck the markets (they did not) and cause loss of data (that happened due to NQ's now exposed sketchy way of implementing the market mechanic and how it interacts with the database. NQ can certainly make the case that these guys are accountable for the damage and can hand out punitive consequences for  it but the permaban is really way over the top.

 

If you break the law and in the process kill someone by accident you can't be convicted of murder, you would be guilty of involuntary manslaughter which is still a crime and you'd do time but you can't be put on the chair for it which is what NQ pretty much did here.

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52 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

If you break the law and in the process kill someone by accident you can't be convicted of murder.

I agree with everything you said except this isn't true at least in the US. You are in fact by default responsible for the death of someone while committing a crime.  In the US this is called Felony Murder https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/felony-murder.html

 

 

So while I am absolutely on the side that permaban is overkill, they are still responsible for the damage to the marker orders regardless of the intent. 

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22 hours ago, Kra said:

An exploit isn't a specific function. An exploit is the use of functions in a way unintended by the designer to gain advantage. Or in this case, delete non-player game assets.

 

So someone using hover engines on an elevator boosting them into space? JC himself said that this was never envisioned and he saw the practice bringing those who did it great profits, since getting to space the "proper way" takes nearly 100x more fuel.

Strictly, by the above definition you gave, they are exploiting the game.

So clearly, some exploits are allowed and some aren't....   Used a system in an unintended fashion? 

check.
Profited?

check?
gain advantage over others unaware of exploit?

check...


Seems pretty watertight case for punishment according to your statement.

Now, that last statement is very interesting. I searched for "delete non-player assets" in the EULA and came up blank.

but if it were in the EULA, then sure, they'd be caught.

But remember, NQ have stated they won't punish retroactively... so...

I hope you see that by defining something apparently watertight, you open the floodgates to other abuses.

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20 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

I agree with everything you said except this isn't true at least in the US. You are in fact by default responsible for the death of someone while committing a crime.  In the US this is called Felony Murder https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/felony-murder.html

 

 

So while I am absolutely on the side that permaban is overkill, they are still responsible for the damage to the marker orders regardless of the intent. 

I think that in the UK, causing someone's death accidentally without intention is technically manslaughter... even if engaged in illegal activity at the time (so long as the activity was not with the purpose to harm the individual who died). Though I remember that there was a case once where a boyfriend and girlfriend decided to die together by mutual poisoning. The woman made the poison and only the man died and it was deemed manslaughter even though she had "technically" killed him intentionally...

I believe that with mitigating circumstances (extreme provocation, loss of mental control etc) such murder can be "downgraded" to manslaughter. IANAL, obviously.

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5 hours ago, Klorox said:

@Scoopy “I knew we were gonna get in trouble but we did it anyway and the ban isn’t fair it’s all NQ’s fault”. If you know something is wrong, and you intentionally break it for laughs, you shouldn’t complain when they lay down the law and ban you. You had an expectation of the consequences, and instead of being a responsible community member you exploited it and broke something that’s gonna take some time to bring back online. You’re not getting sympathy from the community dude, they lost out because of your poor judgement.

So, if they are "not getting  sympathy from the community dude," who are exactly are you arguing with? LOL.

It's always fun reading when someone speaks for the whole community as if they have some innate connection to everyone's consciousness and feelings.

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41 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

So while I am absolutely on the side that permaban is overkill, they are still responsible for the damage to the marker orders regardless of the intent. 

Oh, I really do not think that there is many who think differently on that ..

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3 hours ago, Ram said:

Sorry to confuse you with other people but you have to admit it is difficult when you all parrot the same ridiculous excuses for poor behavior. 

It was difficult to see within a repetitive pattern yes? Even tho the info was out there yes? Do you notice something? 

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38 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

So someone using hover engines on an elevator boosting them into space? JC himself said that this was never envisioned and he saw the practice bringing those who did it great profits, since getting to space the "proper way" takes nearly 100x more fuel.

Strictly, by the above definition you gave, they are exploiting the game.

So clearly, some exploits are allowed and some aren't....   Used a system in an unintended fashion? 

check.
Profited?

check?
gain advantage over others unaware of exploit?

check...


Seems pretty watertight case for punishment according to your statement.

Now, that last statement is very interesting. I searched for "delete non-player assets" in the EULA and came up blank.

but if it were in the EULA, then sure, they'd be caught.

But remember, NQ have stated they won't punish retroactively... so...

I hope you see that by defining something apparently watertight, you open the floodgates to other abuses.

This. That clearly ticks all the boxes of an exploit yet NQ calls that "creative use". People still don't wanna see the hypocrisy in this. 

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This whole forum post has been one of the highest intakes of salt yet... both in quantity and quality.

Glorious from start to finish.

 

I, for one, support the banning of individuals who do some seemingly ridiculous things KNOWING they're going to get banned while doing it.

Then, complain about getting banned knowing they were going to get banned in the end.

Like wow, people like this are the reason warning signs exist

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Well obviously it was unclear If this is a bannable (especially perma) offense since it was all within the game design. People are using way more obvious exploits to an much larger extend (abuse of hovers, alt-f4 anyone) and NQ is like that's cool. Judging in hindsight is easy. If NQ would've been mature about this you'd be talking differently. 

There were way more than 4 people who checked out the market after it was out in the open and certainly took a voxel or two as souvenir. We only see the tip of the iceberg here. 

It's in the nature of the sandbox to explore irregularities, to test the limits and possibilities (again within the absolutely intended game systems). Now a lot of people were punished for playing the game and got blamed by NQ for several of NQs mistakes while all the actual exploiters get a pat on the head. 

Why didn't they perma ban the people who uncovered the mysteries faster than intended for example (they didn't even have time to put textures on Thoramine)? 

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3 hours ago, Ram said:

Sorry to confuse you with other people but you have to admit it is difficult when you all parrot the same ridiculous excuses for poor behavior. The reason he was banned was for purposefully messing with developer owned constructs and acting like it is fine to do. You are pretending like only the devs are to blame and nobody else is at fault for anything, which is empirically incorrect.

Talking to a mirror now are we?

 

I'd say the ones trying to pin this on one party is actually the ones trying to make this all about he players. NQ plays a part in this all because they made a dumb but I woud expect honest mistake of leaving a market RDMS open to the public. They also posted very specific rules about RDMS which in no way exclude anything from it being fine to steal from a public RDMS construct.

 

NQ makes a big effort to spin the events into using an exploit or bug to gain access which his not the case. They also claim these guys went in with intent to cause damage to the database and the market mechanic which is not correct as there is no evidence at all that even remotely would make this viable.

 

I'm not seeing anyone saying these guys need to go free, I do see many saying that NQ not in any way taking even the slightest bit of responsibility here and owning up to it is not good. Punitive action is absolutely in place and justified. A permaban is way over the top. NQ tried to show how tough they can be, in stead they pretty much showed they have no sense of what is a measured reaction and totally lack any form of empathy and understanding of the situation.

 

It is crazy that a NQ dev even needs to touch RDMS to move a market, it is also at best a weakness that removing a market terminal will actually break the database to the point where it's not a matter of pasting a new market object in, renaming it and restoring the link. There is nothing there that NQ can blame these guys for outside of maybe the fact that they cause the problem NQ now has.

 

I actually understand the reaction by NQ but the pendulum on this swung way across into the red on the opposite side form where it came and that is now causing a fallout that is far more damaging than the in game damage and NQ could have prevented that from happening but choose to pretty much close the book and go back to their usual silence.

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4 hours ago, Emptiness said:

I heard a rumor about how people can set any construct to public.

 

Basically, either have a laggy connection or be really fast, approach a random construct, and before the client loads the rights, r-click the construct and share it with all.

 

Any truth to this?

image.png.5f057e4460c2dd4f55ac1cb099b9592c.png

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2 hours ago, Iorail said:

image.png.5f057e4460c2dd4f55ac1cb099b9592c.png

You (general you) know what you must do, then. Time to burn it all. Kill all the markets, all the districts, tear down this sand castle and scatter it to the winds.

 

Perhaps something better can reform from the ashes.

 

Mods, when you see this, remember that you have been protecting a corrupt institution. If you help, you will be lauded as heroes one day.

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The issue lays in the matter of reporting and leaving it to luck, that be, they either look at the ticket and close the loop or ignore the ticket until it sorts itself out. Because tickets are backed up for months ( I still have a few exploit tickets open since forever), it’s must likely that the only way this bugs and exploits will be close once and for all it’s when stuff like the market heist happens. I lost it when the banning occurred (even tho I agree 100% on the ban) because the only reason this happened was because it made NQ look really bad on Reddit, nothing else. Yet, the same is happening to players but that’s ok.......double standards it’s the nail in the coffin they really don’t need.

 

With that said, I have never supported cheating in any game, and punishment needs to be handle in all cases and not in a select few, regardless if this is a beta, a paid beta or a poorly executed Alpha pretending to be a Beta. At this point it’s all up to us, do we really want to continue to support this dumpster fire and help put it out or do we simply walk away cause the flames got to big, that’s real question.

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3 hours ago, Emptiness said:

You (general you) know what you must do, then. Time to burn it all. Kill all the markets, all the districts, tear down this sand castle and scatter it to the winds.

 

Perhaps something better can reform from the ashes.

 

Mods, when you see this, remember that you have been protecting a corrupt institution. If you help, you will be lauded as heroes one day.

It's a game bruh, rein in your delusions of grandeur.

 

This kind of behavior is why we can't have nice things anymore.

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10 hours ago, Ram said:

Sorry to confuse you with other people but you have to admit it is difficult when you all parrot the same ridiculous excuses for poor behavior. The reason he was banned was for purposefully messing with developer owned constructs and acting like it is fine to do. You are pretending like only the devs are to blame and nobody else is at fault for anything, which is empirically incorrect.

 

What does an agreement between devs and players have to do with there being rules in the agreement specifically for players? Nothing. I am dev and I release EULA that says, "players can do this this this but not that that that". It isn't beholden to me as a developer. You as a player must agree to the rights and restrictions set forth by the devs in the EULA. There is no equality or equity to it. The developers didn't "fuck up" they made a small mistake. The actual fuck up is players taking advantage of the mistake, which can get you banned. There was nothing to fix for the devs in this context except maybe a reminder to always check permissions on dev owned constructs, prior to the actions that broke the market data. This isn't an instance of some long overdue bug that was never addressed until player did X and now suddenly it is being addressed. If it was something they knew about and put on the backburner, it still doesn't justify taking advantage by players.. All they did was paste the market back in place and put the data that they apparently do have backups for, back into the terminals. Oh and maybe actually set the permissions this time. Not doing this is no excuse to go rampant with dev owned things.

 

The developers have nothing to learn from here except their normal mistake. They made a Human mistake because they're people. The players who took advantage willfully attempted to do what they knew they shouldn't do, and will hopefully learn from their ban not to do that kind of thing elsewhere.

 

The sign is not being able to access the item. This logic is exactly the same as saying an unlocked door is a sign you have an invitation to enter. It is not.

 

Firstly, all press is good press. Secondly, one video by one YouTuber isn't going to do anything except bring more attention to the game. Even if it was more, thats all they are doing.

 

Yes, people do not need to be thanked to beta test. You are paying to test the game, paying to do a job that normally developers would hire people to do in-house. They do not have to when players will either do it for free or pay to access that.

 

Beta testers and pen testers are not the same. I explained the very obvious differences.

 

Devs can do whatever they want with their game. It is their game. EULA is a set of rules for players to agree to before getting access to the product. You don't agree you do not get access. The EULA is quite clear when you understand how to read, that developer made anything is not subject to rules for players. I keep saying mental gymnastics because everyone parroting your arguments is jumping through illogical hoops to come to insane conclusions. It is mental gymnastics to read, "Come in and do whatever you want" into, "RDMS wasn't set properly for this developer made construct", or "Devs said RDMS theft was allowed and they wouldn't get involved as an organization into any of it" into "We cannot get involved if a individual or org uses RDMS theft against other players". It is all very tiresome that you continue to rail against justified punishment. I have already said I agree that permabanning from everything is probably too harsh. That is not me saying there should be no punishment, however.

If you are at the point in thinking so many people are incorrect and that you must be right that you're now confusing people with others you might want to go back and think about whether you're right. 

It's like the old saying "If someone says they've got one crazy neighbour they're probably sane, if someone says all their neighbours are crazy, they're likely nuts" 

I have repeatedly asked you to quote the clause in the EULA where it states that interfering with developer constructs is forbidden. You have always come up empty. So have the developers, they just said "this is against the EULA" they couldn't be more nonspecific regarding the EULA. Their silence on the matter means that they're probably reading the EULA line by line looking for a reason to make the ban look like anything more than a ten year old throwing a tantrum because Timmy stood on his sandcastle. 


 

"All press is good press" 

Oh dear my man. Oh dear indeed. This is what the underlings of rich people tell them when they fuck up and the press gets wind of it. Its a consolation statement. It's not a fact. If you want to look at the amount of games that have tanked because of bad press and the amount of games studios that have gone broke because of bad press be my guest. Day one, Garry's incident comes to mind, that's at the top of the 'dev fuck up scale' but it's still an example. There have been plenty of other games that have got this "good bad press" and unless they were AAA titles they all flopped unless the devs did something to rectify the situation and did it fast. 

As for beta testers not being pen testers you couldn't be more wrong. The job that these people are paying to do is to test a game for bugs. If they happen to find a game breaking bug and it breaks the game a little (how many people were affected by this? Did the game servers go down? Did the developers lose any revenue over this?) then they did their job. Especially considering they sent a DM to let a GM/Developer know long before putting that reddit thread up. 

 

"The developers made a human mistake" 

Wouldn't it also be true to say that if the original 4 did anything wrong it was making the human 'mistake' of reading the rules and assuming that since the rules said that wrong permissions mean you can lose whatever somebody takes is a human 'mistake' if you could even call it that. They read the rules and they assumed they were in the right to take what they want. Nowhere does it say developer constructs are protected. 

As for making a 'human mostake' you've just gone on to basically say mods = gods they can do what they want with impunity then "EULA, EULA EEEEUUULLLLLAAAA"  like the 4 letters are some sort of fucking magic spell that allows developers to act like complete and utter imbeciles. If anyone is doing mental gymnastics and jumping through illogical hoops it's you. What part of the EULA did they break? I'll be waiting with baited breath while you actually go and read the document. 

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I think it's clear that NQ made people unhappy and is allergic to apologizing. It wouldn't take much for JC to post something like "We're sorry that we've angered some players with this action. We're still learning how to moderate the game and we're listening to feedback. This is beta for us too." 

 

Some people have a visceral reaction to disorder and vandals. We are a society that tends to idolize law over morality and order over individuality. 

 

Of course some people will demand harsh punishments; it's just how some people think. To them, justice will always be about punishment. The context doesn't matter -- rulebreakers are rulebreakers are rulebreakers. They don't care if the rules are vague -- "everyone should know what is right and what is wrong", and those that refuse to buy into their moral postulate are simply evil. 

 

They'd probably like to see these players hit with real life prosecution...for being digital vandals in a beta. It's just how "lawful good" people think.

 

TLDR: The more of this topic I read, the more I feel like it has less to do with the situation and more to do with people's core views on justice, punishment, and rules...and the inability to think beyond the letter of an end user license agreement.  

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26 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

 

That's a good video. Subbed and liked.

Seems like Scoopy and Uber wanted to have some fun in a beta they paid $120 for. The pls no ban sign is an obvious joke and the fact that uber and scoopy are saying that one guy got permabanned for taking two whole lamps is kind of telling of how little the developers care for "even justice" in their game. 

My opinion is that Uber and Scoopy did nothing wrong, they just wanted to have some fun and leave their mark on a game. The fact that other players have gotten away with griefing by trying to make areas inaccessible or create lag and are still playing shows that this is more to to with the developers having a bruised anu... uhh... ego than anything else as it makes them look silly and they now have to do some work to fix market 15.

As for actions affecting other players, which people keep bringing up, it seems Uber and Scoopy made sure they didn't grief other players, they wanted to leave a small mark on a beta game. Instead the developers have left one giant shitstain. 

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14 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I'd say that people seeing a Youtube video and then actually coming here to post about how they'd never consider the game due to this nonsense is not exactly "good press". There's many people right now, who never heard of DU before and never actually came here, talking smack and advising their friends to stay away from the game. How is that good press?

 

Yes, what these guys did was against EULA/TOS and yes, there should be consequences. Had NQ followed this line, smacked these guys over the head, emptied their in game wallets and locked them out for a while then I'd say fair enough and should have known better.

 

instead NQ pretty much went out of their way to try and set these guys up as maliciously using an exploit (which they did not), not bothering to report (which they did) and deliberately and with intent o do so wreck the markets (they did not) and cause loss of data (that happened due to NQ's now exposed sketchy way of implementing the market mechanic and how it interacts with the database. NQ can certainly make the case that these guys are accountable for the damage and can hand out punitive consequences for  it but the permaban is really way over the top.

 

If you break the law and in the process kill someone by accident you can't be convicted of murder, you would be guilty of involuntary manslaughter which is still a crime and you'd do time but you can't be put on the chair for it which is what NQ pretty much did here.

Yeah, anyone who is going to waste time coming here just to virtue signal that the devs were meanies to players willfully doing things everyone knows they shouldn't is someone who a sane community doesn't want or need here anyway. These are the people who would get banned for similar infractions in the future anyway. You already agree here there was a deserved punishment. Why are you mentioning people outside of the game who do not understand nor agree with you on this?

 

Also, you are wrong about the law there. Very disappointing you keep defending and minimizing the wilful harm these players caused. We can debate about the severity of the punishment, but there is no excuse for trying to defend these actions.

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