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“Marketplace Heist” Response

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9 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

How have i moved the goal post?

 

How is NQ making changes to a market's RDMS any different then them making changes to yours?

 

Was NQ playing the game when they made the changes?  Was the purpose of the RDMS change to benefit them personally in the game?  

 

Or was it maybe, part of their job, to make the market services available to all of us, so we can enjoy the game.

If NQ fucks up your RDMS they need to replace everything that you lost because of that, its their fault. If NQ fucks up their own RDMS they need to replace everything for the player who lost something because of their horribly amateurish way to implement the market inventory and storage, its their fault. Deleting the stolen material could be adequate, but not nessecarily. At no point is the player to blame within the context of sandbox and at no point was nuking players an adequate reaction. A temp ban wouldve been already been more enough of a show of "power" (Id call it weakness tho because it the most shortsighted punishment considering its their fault). We're still not talking about a bug here. It was within the set rules of the game NQ owned or not.

I know youre purposely acting stupid here to provoke, but it seems to fit the mentality of some. Sadly.

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Wow. Dual universe had me interested a few months back as I had heard it was a bit like Space Engineers with an MMO element making it a while lot like a voxel EvE, seemed to have some promise though having to pay monthly to beta test put me off. 

I heard about this 'incident' through TheYamicks and now this is a game I will never, ever subscribe to. 

Let me get things straight. First, according to your own rules if permissions are set incorrectly, or if a 'friend' decides to infiltrate and heist you, then it's your fault. That's much like the corporation system I remember from EvE (before a lot of changes got changed to appease the carebear) yet when you incorrectly set permissions on your stuff you permaban people for exposing a flaw that you previously ignored? I'm sorry but these people were beta testing your game. Not only that but they were paying you monthly to do so and in the course of their beta testing they found a problem, allegedly tried to contact you and then when there was no response posted this to reddit. 

Your response was to hit them with a permaban. You essentially banned one of your own paying beta testers in a childish fit of rage over the fact that you fell victim to your own game mechanics, which seem to be poorly implemented, there should be a person by person permission system and moved assets should default to private. If you wanted more complex access systems you should go down the route of Eve's corporation roles system (which is also present in many other MMOs) where certain members get certain permissions and a log is kept of who took what. 

 

Essentially you poorly implemented a system and when you became hoist on your own petard by it instead of thanking the beta testers for testing your game and maybe taking back some things which are dev only items you acted like a group of children and said that your toys cannot be touched and therefore you are permabanning the people who played by the rules, citing the EULA as the reason, yet you never said which section of the EULA they broke, personally I assume that you're using the part in almost every game EULA where "Novaquirk reserves the rights to deny a player access to the game" which basically translates to "if our fefes get hurt we will ban you" as such you've lost a potential customer. I assume you, or someone else (if this post even goes through) will say "potential customers don't matter" in which case I would like to know said person's opinion on piracy. 

 

Finally, these actions are almost certainly grounds for you to end up in SidAlpha's dirty devs Hall of shame. I've got in touch with him. No doubt others have too. 

-Dave

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5 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

How have i moved the goal post?

 

How is NQ making changes to a market's RDMS any different then them making changes to yours?

 

Was NQ playing the game when they made the changes?  Was the purpose of the RDMS change to benefit them personally in the game?  

 

Or was it maybe, part of their job, to make the market services available to all of us, so we can enjoy the game.

Very good.

 

> How is NQ making changes to a market's RDMS any different then them making changes to yours?

 

 

It's not. But if NQ changes my RDMS to be public and someone else loots my stuff, who is to blame?

 

Even if it's part of their job, they made a mistake doing that job. They are to blame. If I make a mistake doing my job, I don't blame the clients....

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39 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

Do you think bugs, are like real bugs?  Like there's a spider inside the computer?

 

Not mistakes in code?

Fun fact: A bug is called a bug, because at the beginning of IT, computers were so big that actual bugs would get in, get fried, and crash them. :D

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You guys are so stuck on this idea that the ban was some sort of punishment for a theft.

 

When NQ makes a mistake that creates an exploit.  And a player discovers that mistake and exploits it, then posts publicly about it.  That hurts the game and makes NQ look bad.  That's why it's in the TOS.  Because NQ doesn't want you to do it.

 

The ban is to remind people not to do stuff that NQ specifically asked us not to do.

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"and makes NQ look bad" you actually made me laugh hard right there. Maybe its cause NQ actually did badly in this situation in every possible aspect. Oh dear. Yes the bans show clearly "players will pay for our mistakes, even if theyre within the legit game systems". Because of the inherent hypocrisy in their actions they havent achieved any show of power but shown that they easily panic and overreact.

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You kids today constantly confusing private companies with some kind of Democracy.

 

"It's unfair"

 

"Hypocrisy"

 

"Muh free speech"

 

It's honestly kind of refreshing.  In a lot of ways i wish that was how things worked.

 

But it's not

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Just now, Atmosph3rik said:

You kids today constantly confusing private companies with some kind of Democracy.

 

"It's unfair"

 

"Hypocrisy"

 

"Muh free speech"

 

It's honestly kind of refreshing.  In a lot of ways i wish that was how things worked.

 

But it's not

Kids today - cute cute.

 

Your posts are vastly less mature than that of the "kids" you are accusing of having some failure to grasp the real world.

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11 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

You kids today constantly confusing private companies with some kind of Democracy.

 

"It's unfair"

 

"Hypocrisy"

 

"Muh free speech"

 

It's honestly kind of refreshing.  In a lot of ways i wish that was how things worked.

 

But it's not

Kids? Really judging from your level of reflection and logic I thought I was talking to a young kid right here. 

But sad too see that you think companies dont have any responsibility for their actions whatsoever.

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instead of separating data from UI, market data was encoded into physical game objects.

instead of double-checking RDMS, NQ staff released an editable marketplace.

instead of reporting the bug and waiting, dudes decided to actually disrupt market trading for anyone living around alioth 15.

instead of a temp ban and a meeting with GMs to find out where player-dev communication broke down, permanent bans are issued.

 

Everyone sucks here.

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16 minutes ago, Rakaneth said:

instead of separating data from UI, market data was encoded into physical game objects.

instead of double-checking RDMS, NQ staff released an editable marketplace.

instead of reporting the bug and waiting, dudes decided to actually disrupt market trading for anyone living around alioth 15.

instead of a temp ban and a meeting with GMs to find out where player-dev communication broke down, permanent bans are issued.

 

Everyone sucks here.

this sums it up quite well.

 

"instead of reporting the bug and waiting, dudes decided to actually disrupt market trading for anyone living around alioth 15."

 

its true partially, but it was never the intention of the players at any point to disrupt any trading (but a consequence clearly). and market 15 was incredibly far out and basically deserted, the devs have restored the market now and the damage was minor. but yeah definitely not the best approach on the players side, tho a reversible one. im fairly certain no one wouldve expected this kind of badly done storage of the data. if that wouldve been known to the players no one wouldve touched it. im also fairly certain damaging anyone was never the intention it was more the interest of disassembling the market and checking out the innards. like you would expect for a game thats full of engineers and builders. later on some other people came aswelll and took a bite after the whole thing was out in the open for hours and hours and NQ did not react to it.

 

"instead of a temp ban and a meeting with GMs to find out where player-dev communication broke down, permanent bans are issued."

 

especially considering NQ has been bragging about "being so close to the community" this point is very disappoiting as you can see theyre absolutely not close to the community, when it comes to their mistakes they get even unreasonable and defensive. officially starting to spread lies about "it wasnt reported" even tho there is clear evidence that it was. this redirection of blame is shocking.

 

Now NQ shrouds themself in darkness and expects the internet to forget.

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Running a company isn't about flimsy things like "ideals" and "doing the right thing". On that much, I can agree.
HOWEVER... Selling something requires to have a good grasp of the targeted consumer's interests.
In this game's case, the common trait all customers share, is that they want to play a game where they can do what they want, only needing to fear repercussion if they break the rules.
This event has shattered this concept. No rule was broken and a player has had all of his rights and progress revoked over something that was so ambiguous that the company's only defense is citing "common sense".
This only shows that no player is safe playing this game. Forget PvE or PvP, at any time, if you end up doing something that the devs don't like, wether it be accidental or not, you will lose all your progress.
This is pretty much a game led by an authoritarian regime. Tyrany at its best. And this is not something that will attract customers in the slightest.

They need to shape up, or I'm not going to waste any more of my time and money on this failure of a game. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in this.

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7 minutes ago, Eruend the SkyReaper said:

Running a company isn't about flimsy things like "ideals" and "doing the right thing". On that much, I can agree.
HOWEVER... Selling something requires to have a good grasp of the targeted consumer's interests.
In this game's case, the common trait all customers share, is that they want to play a game where they can so what they want, only needing to fear repercussion if they break the rules.
This event has shattered this concept. No rule was broken and a player has had all of his rights and progress revoked over something that was so ambiguous that their only defense is citing "common sense".
This only shows that no player is safe playing this game. Forget PvE or PvP, at any time, if you end up doing something that the devs don't like, wether it be accidental or not, you will lose all your progress.
This is pretty much a game led by an authoritarian regime. Tyrany at its best. And this is not something that will attract customers in the slightest.

They need to shape up, or I'm not going to waste any more of my time and money on this failure of a game. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in this.

I would disagree on the "doing the right thing"-part with you, since NQ should be a positive example for what they expect of others and I guess morals are also a thing when you run a company. Other than that its perfect summaration of the underlying issue.

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1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

How have i moved the goal post?

 

How is NQ making changes to a market's RDMS any different then them making changes to yours?

 

Was NQ playing the game when they made the changes?  Was the purpose of the RDMS change to benefit them personally in the game?  

 

Or was it maybe, part of their job, to make the market services available to all of us, so we can enjoy the game.

As if the dev response to THEIR OWN CREATED ISSUE wasn't enough to make me consider unsubscribing to this game, this guy solidified my decision.  If this clown is the kinda white knight this game is attracting I'm glad I'm getting out now. 🙄

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2 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

When NQ makes a mistake that creates an exploit.

 

This is the core of the argument. NQ would love for everyone to buy into this and pretty much went out of their way to try and portray events to align with the sentiment this is/was an exploit. and pretty much spun the response in such a way that it appears to be a matter of an exploit being used and the players involved knowingly and with malicious intent sabotaging the market system and causing loss of data. Problem is that there is enough information available to at least poke holes in their response.

 

It's not an exploit and NQ did not create one by a dev being dumb and leaving a market with open access in RDMS. 

 

This is a case of players taking advantage of an incorrectly set RDMS. NQ has been hammering home the fact that they consider RDMS theft as perfectly fine. They drove home the notion that if you mistakenly set RDMS wrong and someone takes advantage that is your loss and they can't get involved. And that is actually fine for me.

 

Were the guys doing this wrong? yes

Did these guys continue to make dumb moves? certainly

Should there be consequences? yes

 

Is it good for NQ to pretty much play the victim and quite literally spin and twist their rules to fit justifying a permaban? No on many fronts

Is a permaban justified here? IMO certainly not

 

NQ could have benefitted from this positively in many ways, certainly publicly. Now and over the next few days if not weeks, the opposite will happen and they should have realized this action would not go down well. Many, many people who had never heard of DU or might have and were considering joining will at best have second thoughts and/or based on blown out of proportion hit piece videos and articles decide to stay away and "spread the word" which is not what the game deserves or what NQ can afford to happen. And all of that is entirely on them for not considering their options, not reconsidering as the first signs of this started to emerge and stating quiet hoping it will go away as they tend to do.

In less than two months they have now created two incidents which have been blow up in the gaming press with a negative image of them and reflecting badly on the game and that is a shame.

 

This situation is very much reminiscent of the recent incident with a CSM member for CCP/EVE, a knee jerk reaction before all the facts are in line and then a massive fallout as more details emerge. CCP was smart enough to recognize the situation, take ownership and correct it. It blew over and actually got them praise for being able to own up on their error, take the hit when they turn out to be wrong and overreact. I honestly do not see NQ be able to do the same, in fact I expect NQ just pressed delete on these guys and went back to sleep. I also expect NQ will just start handing out more bans and mutes as this continues to be a topic thinking they can make it go away in that manner. I think NQ has a lot to learn still and do wonder what JC would think f this as I somehow suspect he is not actually (fully) informed on this matter.

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Exactly the shortsightedness of NQ is causing the biggest harm here. Some people here mistake the concern for the future of DU as hate for DU, but its the opposite if anything. For many its obvious that what NQ is doing is actually harming the reputation and therefore the future of the game itself. I dont understand how a company that claims to be community orientated thinks it gets away tyranny and ignorance in this day and age. The censorship is also a huge part that worries me. Of course many of us try to document as much of the events as possible and if NQ keeps on with this it will come back even worse. I can only shake my head at a company that acts like a little kid with an hurt ego instead of reaching out to the community and solving issues in a mannered fashion, being able to admit their own responsibility in this and act accordingly, instead of spreading lies, twisting words or trying to change things into something theyre not or even deny stuff that is well documented.

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2 hours ago, DavidDavidson said:

Wow. Dual universe had me interested a few months back as I had heard it was a bit like Space Engineers with an MMO element making it a while lot like a voxel EvE, seemed to have some promise though having to pay monthly to beta test put me off. 

 

NQ made a booboo here yes, I certainly agree as fo many others. but please keep some perspective especially since you come from a source which , let's be fair, is designed and feeds from, blowing stuff well out of proportion. Also we are mostly just a bunch of nerds who have strong opinions and will share them whether you like it or not but when it comes to it we mostly all like the game and really want it to do well and get big.

 

Frankly, if you choose to not touch DU for this reason that is your choice but IMO also your loss if this kind of game is your thing. But you do you and what works for you.. ;) 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Eruend the SkyReaper said:

This is pretty much a game led by an authoritarian regime. Tyrany at its best. 

Well, as surviving alpha dissident of sorts (sure, not most radical), I can say, that NQ obviously not tyranical, and especialy not in comparison with some other dev teams. 

 

Its even funny, that issue is of contrary nature. 

 

For very long time NQ was (or percieved, we dont know internal workings) so impossibly soft-handed (undecisive?), that when they actualy gone "serious", it become... complicated, because was done in bad moment/circumstance/context.

 

But just to think about, if NQ banned not those silly "market reconstruction agents" to make their first example of how strict they can be, but presented to us with news, that cabal of abominable dupers is destroyed, superpermabanned and whole their cursed org totaly wiped and removed from existance...

 

Then lots of people will be in spasms of vendictive pleasure, totaly happy about NQ severe justice. Completly different story and public opinion. 

 

 

 

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Are you seriously comparing duping and hacks with stealing some voxels within the intended game mechanics (unintentionally and accidentally breaking NQs absolute horrible way of data storing)?

No one would defend dupers, no one would defend speed hackers, no one would defend other means of third party use or messing with the game code. Actively trying to break the game by creating programms is something on a completely different layer. No one wouldve bat an eye if they wouldve banned these kind of hackers and actual exploiters. They made a huge mistake and now theyre treating regular players who did not mess with the game in any other way than how it was intended like they hacked into their mainframe and deleted all accounts plus doxing JCs private address. This is out of proportion.

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31 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

It's not an exploit and NQ did not create one by a dev being dumb and leaving a market with open access in RDMS. 

 

You can't honestly believe that?   A player having access to something that they absolutely were never intended to have access to, by the developers of the game.

 

It's not that the player USED an exploit to access the market.  It's the fact that they were able to, that IS an exploit, to anyone who knows about it.

 

For all we know, at one point all the markets had open RDMS, and NQ managed to fix them all except market 15.  I think you can see how it's important to keep something like that quiet.

 

NQ specifically put wording in the TOS, so when they screw up like this, players don't go post about it on Reddit.

 

I agree 100% that the entire concept of RDMS theft, with a flawed RDMS system and no pvp,  is a mess, and is doing nothing but reflect badly on the game right now.

 

That doesn't change the fact that intentionally violating the TOS gets you banned.

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