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Anopheles

I don't think I'm happy that Organizations are already up and running

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Seems like every niche has already been filled.  New organizations will be minnows and will struggle to survive.   

 

Yes, I know Organization Churn is a thing in games, but everything you want to do will already be up and running, so you are under a lot of weight.

 

This will be true even after a wipe.     This means the best areas will be found sooner (organized effort), better defended and so on.

 

Organizations shouldn't have started until a relatively short beta or after.

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As I see it I would not worry too much. The 'Organizational landscape' will change drastically once it becomes apparent that running an org is not easy and requires RL skills, effort and a _lot_ of time. Many current orgs are fairly loosely knit communities where infighting and general disagreements will cause breakup of some of the bigger ones very soon after the game starts going.

 

The current framework is mostly a placeholder IMO and while there are a few solid, well organized ones, these are generally specialized and not the dime a dozen 'we will kill you if we want your land and you do not submit' type of which there are too many.

 

Also it's interesting how so many seem to think that just setting up a military or government style leadership structure will make things work.. A title is just that unless the person holding it understands what it means to bear it. 

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An ... interesting topic. There's various aspects that come to mind though, at least in my mind right now.

 

Let's start at the end:
 

Let's assume an organization subforum would not have been an aspect, just like the organization registry on the community hub at https://community.dualthegame.com/

 

Would not stop existing groups to express an interest into Dual Universe and perhaps recruit for it (elsewhere). Aside from that I see no practical reason from the dev perspective to actively disable or avoid community sections. To them it would rather be counter-productive because avoiding that also avoids, in at least an abstract way, hinders establishing an active community. Organizations and community projects are a vital part of this. It would in that sense be a bit unrealistic.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Anopheles said:

Seems like every niche has already been filled.  New organizations will be minnows and will struggle to survive.   

 

Yes, I know Organization Churn is a thing in games, but everything you want to do will already be up and running, so you are under a lot of weight. 

 

That is a fact of life, I'd argue. Many ideas and niches already filled and taken. One is usually never the first (unless you actually are). But one is also never the last. You can branch out if you do it right. Or perhaps I'd change your expectation? That some people are first, or not necessarily first but able to establish an idea or fill a niche, can hardly be avoided. Now you have various options.

 

First I'd question why you are "under a lot of weight". If you wanted to do those things instead? Then yes, probably. It makes it tricky to compete with established entities, but it isn't impossible. But did you also ask yourself why you feel a need to compete in that area by yourself? If something you wanted to do is already subjectively "taken" and if you do not want to compete or feel it would be hard to do so, why not join with them?

 

And let us not forget that nothing lasts forever. How many organizations that exist now or are even big will still be around at release? And how many of those will then still be around 5 years later? There will be a notable fluctuation, especially once this game attracts more people and is ready for release. Perhaps most of the existing orgs will be washed way or out-played by future orgs who will do it better.

 

But in the end I see a Necromonger approach in a wider sense of "you keep what you kill", in addition to emergent gameplay: If you were first or successful, you likely deserve it.

 

As someone with the same idea you can basically either try to compete, join or do something else. You do not always have to invent the wheel anew.

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Almost every organization is bound to collapse within first several days of being in the release.

Reasons:
Too big to manage, which causes resource and leadership problems. Half-Senders, I'm ready to laugh at your inevitable downfall.

Too many inactives

Too many """rules and laws"""

Not enough time to expand naturally

Lack of proper leadership architecture

Industrial organizations won't have proper infrastructure.

Ship building organizations are going to be a complete and utter joke early game.

Research organizations... just... why?

Sleeper orgs: DoA.

Exodus fleets need ships and materials, which cannot be supplied until several months into the game.

 

 

"And they hated Jesus, for he told the truth."

I know it sounds cliched and dumb, but the ashes of those orgs make actual ones. Ones that function properly.

Organizations that "consume and adapt" (Like BOO, because they know how this shit works) are the proto-orgs that will survive.

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47 minutes ago, Kuritho said:

Almost every organization is bound to collapse within first several days of being in the release.

Reasons:
Too big to manage, which causes resource and leadership problems. Half-Senders, I'm ready to laugh at your inevitable downfall.

Too many inactives

Too many """rules and laws"""

Not enough time to expand naturally

Lack of proper leadership architecture

Industrial organizations won't have proper infrastructure.

Ship building organizations are going to be a complete and utter joke early game.

Research organizations... just... why?

Sleeper orgs: DoA.

Exodus fleets need ships and materials, which cannot be supplied until several months into the game.

 

 

"And they hated Jesus, for he told the truth."

I know it sounds cliched and dumb, but the ashes of those orgs make actual ones. Ones that function properly.

Organizations that "consume and adapt" (Like BOO, because they know how this shit works) are the proto-orgs that will survive.

 

You, I love you.

 

1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

As I see it I would not worry too much. The 'Organizational landscape' will change drastically once it becomes apparent that running an org is not easy and requires RL skills, effort and a _lot_ of time. Many current orgs are fairly loosely knit communities where infighting and general disagreements will cause breakup of some of the bigger ones very soon after the game starts going.

 

The current framework is mostly a placeholder IMO and while there are a few solid, well organized ones, these are generally specialized and not the dime a dozen 'we will kill you if we want your land and you do not submit' type of which there are too many.

 

Also it's interesting how so many seem to think that just setting up a military or government style leadership structure will make things work.. A title is just that unless the person holding it understands what it means to bear it. 

Agreed. If you don't know what you are doing and your organization isn't organized and planned, you are doomed to fail...miserably. ^^

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Interesting.

True and wrong at the same time.

 

Well alot of corp will still come up and even be well done.

You don't need 100+ people for a corp to work. 2 good friends would be enough already for some, 20 would be a good count for alot of these.

 

YOu can say that 90% of all corp registered members are probably ghosts, they might comeback or not.

But before we reach Beta, anything out there is just a note for people to look at.

 

Wait and see. Make a corp yourself or join one.

If it fails, evolve and take the next step.

 

A few of these corps will surely get trough, simply by the tenecity they show over the time.

And the active people that drive them.

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28 minutes ago, Sofernius said:

A few of these corps will surely get trough, simply by the tenecity they show over the time.

And the active people that drive them.

The early bird catches the worm.

 

While not all early birds will make it, those who do likely have the biggest advantages as they drive projects for years to come and establish themselves early on. Such as a notable city project as example, or the Aerospace expo. Or news-type projects.

 

Will they be the only ones in that regard? They might be now, more or less, but likely no, others will come. But the early ones had all the time to establish themselves and make connections where others who join way later have to start from scratch.

 

I personally think it is deserved. It's like natural selection in a certain way, at least loosely. Some struggle, some prosper. But any individual player has a choice. Compete, join, cooperate, fight, sabotage, support, hinder, whatever you can think of.

 

---------------------------------

 

Something else I sometimes wonder about

 

Regarding specific projects or niches that are already filled I'd actually wonder why some seemingly get the urge to compete instead of joining and supporting the specific project. If it's just an organization with a certain style, then okay, you can try to compete with a different style.

 

But if it's a very specific project a general community benefits from, why try to invent the wheel anew? If I have a general or sub-community podcast thing, why make 5 more where you compete and likely hinder each other instead of focusing it all into 1 or 2 projects?

 

Again, I mostly refer to something where the difference is minimal. Is it ego in the end? We all can't be leaders or calling the shots in the end. There could be justified reasons or differences, but often I've seen completely new groups and projects that are already covered by an established group of people or factions where I wonder: "Do you really expect to get far now?"

 

I guess this also factors into the general question of "established orgs and projects" vs. "new orgs and projects".

 

My kind suggestion I can give to people: Look, if what you look for already has been covered and if there is no notable difference in execution, do not try to always invent the wheel anew and join up with existing ideas instead of trying to compete as newbie - unless you truly think you can offer something different and unique. This also has practical effects: You may not get far alone or as "copy". Or you may eventually fail despite initial results, meaning you wasted time when it was possibly foreseeable.

 

Okay, enough text for now. People should get what I mean. Long story short, competing is generally fine, but can sometimes be futile.

 

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5 hours ago, Anopheles said:

Seems like every niche has already been filled.  New organizations will be minnows and will struggle to survive.   

 

Yes, I know Organization Churn is a thing in games, but everything you want to do will already be up and running, so you are under a lot of weight.

 

This will be true even after a wipe.     This means the best areas will be found sooner (organized effort), better defended and so on.

 

Organizations shouldn't have started until a relatively short beta or after.

Just do it better than the others and suddenly you will fill that niche. Shocking isn't it.... That's like saying every business is already taken by some company in RL so making a new one will fail for sure. Which isn't the case

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59 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Just do it better than the others and suddenly you will fill that niche. Shocking isn't it.... That's like saying every business is already taken by some company in RL so making a new one will fail for sure. Which isn't the case

Think he meant: like the guy that chooses  to start manufacturing CD's  compared to the guy that manufactured floppy disc or VCR tapes. 

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Simply brushing the argument aside with an opportunistic comment seems somewhat easy. Even when OP is exaggerating, he does have a point.

 

I think the current orgs in general really have no context, they mostly have no reason to exist and quite a few seem to be more about the 'leadership' not looking out for anything but them being leaders/CEO/King/General of their own little piece of DU. As mentioned I do believe most of these will fall apart quickly especially the ones built around conquest and conflict as a main driver IMO. The orgs that are emerging in more specialist and unique ways would tend to be able to grow and flourish much more and much faster.

 

The problem will be though that these failing orgs will potentially leave a lot of collateral damage which may actually impact the game in a negative way if people come away with a bad taste. So yes I would agree that it may be better to at least not have orgs establish and promote themselves as much as happens now, especially on 'official' platforms. I do believe this will resolve itself within the first 6 months after the game goes live for reasons mentioned earlier.

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Just now, blazemonger said:

which may actually impact the game in a negative way if people come away with a bad taste.

 

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? What potential "damage" to you see and how would it impact the game in a negative way?

 

I would simply see a reshuffling of the cards as part of the game idea. Another rises where someone falls.

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I think that there is a good chance of people coming in to the game, signing up with an org based on the expectations and promises set by said org and then finding these are based on nothing but fantasy with no actually ability to make this work.

 

Running an org is not about you calling yourself General, CEO, president or whatever. Running an Org in the scale of DU will require actual leadership and management skills that I fear a lot of those now creating such orgs lack. People will tend to not distinguish player created content from developer ones and will blame the game if these things fall apart. Not always and not in every  situation obviously, but negative experiences are generally shared 10-5 times more than good ones so a bad rep spreads fast, even when not justified.

 

So yes, I feel there may need to be more control over orgs, when they are created, how and through which platforms they communicate (as in using developer media platforms). Will it kill the game, certainly not! It may well cause some bad rep to spread though, which IMO is a real potential issue. I'm not saying this will spell doom as it won't, but it would be something I would want to manage/control if I were a games developer.

 

 

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Funny, i think of that argument as easy.

 

Weak leaders and ceos will always exist and will always emerge in such games. And even "successful" ones can be very bad for the game.....

 

And some ppl who have no idea about the game will certainly fall for them. And may share their negative xp thus leaving Du in a bad light - as we've seen thousands of times in Eve. 

 

GL controlling that metagame 

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Funny, i think of that argument as easy.

 

Weak leaders and ceos will always exist and will always emerge in such games. And even "successful" ones can be very bad for the game.....

 

And some ppl who have no idea about the game will certainly fall for them. And may share their negative xp thus leaving Du in a bad light - as we've seen thousands of times in Eve. 

 

GL controlling that metagame 

So is it that the leader must operate the same way an empire would.

Like fast communication to all cities within its borders

Sending supplies, citizens and soldiers to wear they need to go quickly and efficiently

An identity based on policies,"propaganda", and media like having community created content

The empires strengths like military or transport

The power structure being the best for the empire.

 

I'm probably wrong or confusing in this but i what do you think

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There are problems with an organization at the beginning of a Game.   The Corp I set up in Elite Dangerous (The Code - nothing to do with Eve's C.O.D.E - that eventually partly splintered to form the SDC) had things in the charter that didn't happen in the game (splitting loot mainly and other things that seemed logical but didnt get put in) so, yeah, some organizations will fail because of that, or burn out or politics.

 

Some won't.

 

The ability to have an organization infrastructure (leadership, webpage, practical knowledge of game systems) already in place is a huge secret bonus for those lucky enough to get into Pre-Alpha.

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2 minutes ago, Anopheles said:

There are problems with an organization at the beginning of a Game.   The Corp I set up in Elite Dangerous (The Code - nothing to do with Eve's C.O.D.E - that eventually partly splintered to form the SDC) had things in the charter that didn't happen in the game (splitting loot mainly and other things that seemed logical but didnt get put in) so, yeah, some organizations will fail because of that, or burn out or politics.

 

Some won't.

 

The ability to have an organization infrastructure (leadership, webpage, practical knowledge of game systems) is a secret bonus for those lucky enough to get into Pre-Alpha.

If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on the three things you mentioned. It’s great advice for future Orgs and the ones we have right now

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9 minutes ago, Lulichika said:

So is it that the leader must operate the same way an empire would.

Like fast communication to all cities within its borders

Sending supplies, citizens and soldiers to wear they need to go quickly and efficiently

An identity based on policies,"propaganda", and media like having community created content

The empires strengths like military or transport

The power structure being the best for the empire.

 

I'm probably wrong or confusing in this but i what do you think

Leading an org in a game like Du is a 24/7 job. 365 days. You will get calls in the middle of the night because somerhing went downhill. You are stuck in ingame meetings and need to make deciscions 24/7. Letting other ppl help you, just makes the leadership more prone to spais, infiltrators and scammers. That's what leading means. 

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Very true @Anopheles..

 

As an example, for Signal Cartel we see many possible opportunities already present in the game much like we are in EVE, as a counter culture which builds a protective reputation based on neutrality and service oriented mindset. Right now we are but a few but by growing with the game we will find and develop ways to make our playstyle work. Will we encounter those who just shoot to kill and do not care? sure, bu that is part of the consequence of how we play the game. Overall though I am confident we will be able to build our rep and offer what we can offer the way we choose to and not let other factors dictate that. By gradually bringing members into the game as it progresses and develops we can build a strong organizational structure, obviously some requirements such as not allowing membership of multiple orgs to maintain our neutrality will limit appeal, it will also attract the right people at the same time though.

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Leading an org in a game like Du is a 24/7 job. 365 days. You will get calls in the middle of the night because somerhing went downhill. You are stuck in ingame meetings and need to make deciscions 24/7. Letting other ppl help you, just makes the leadership more prone to spais, infiltrators and scammers. That's what leading means. 

So a central Leader is still needed to handle every single decision even if each city has 500 or so citizens, each with their own systems that need to managed

 

EG:  Nova Union has a city on Alioth, Thades, and Sicari with a 2 dozen outposts. Does every command go through him, or do 40% of the commands be made by local officials while 60 is made by the Leader? 

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5 minutes ago, Lethys said:

 Letting other ppl help you, just makes the leadership more prone to spais, infiltrators and scammers. That's what leading means. 

While you are entitled to your opinion obviously, to me what you describe is a paranoid monocratic despot.

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13 minutes ago, Lulichika said:

If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on the three things you mentioned. It’s great advice for future Orgs and the ones we have right now

 

12 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Leading an org in a game like Du is a 24/7 job. 365 days. You will get calls in the middle of the night because somerhing went downhill. You are stuck in ingame meetings and need to make deciscions 24/7. Letting other ppl help you, just makes the leadership more prone to spais, infiltrators and scammers. That's what leading means. 

Regardless of size, unless the game sets up a ersatz webbrowser in game, a webpage helps to focus players, gives a platform for stimulating the interest of friends who play other games and gives something important to important future and current recruits - a sign that you know what you are doing.   

 

Leadership depends on the nature of the organization and the energy/commitment of the leadership.   It can range from very loose (a pirate band, with a leader who is the idea man and someone who owns the website) - basically just a band of mates who want to have fun - all the way up to a Japanese Style Corporation/Military Structure with everyone knowing their place and having a set role, even if it is 'meat shield'.     The problem is if you want the loose formation but with strict order or a Corporation where no one is in charge.   Lead, pally about or delegate, but do something that fits the theme of the org.

 

Practical knowledge is things like (i'm not in Pre Alpha, but I can hypothesize), what landscape is best for defense, what minerals are most efficient to process, if the terrain gives clues to the minerals, that kind of thing as well as having an idea of the most efficient way to produce a blueprint).

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5 minutes ago, Anopheles said:

 

Regardless of size, unless the game sets up a ersatz webbrowser in game, a webpage helps to focus players, gives a platform for stimulating the interest of friends who play other games and gives something important to important future and current recruits - a sign that you know what you are doing.   

 

Leadership depends on the nature of the organization and the energy/commitment of the leadership.   It can range from very loose (a pirate band, with a leader who is just an idea man and someone who just owns the website) - basically just a band of mates who want to have fun - all the way up to a Japanese Corporation/Military Structure with everyone knowing their place and having a set role, even if it is 'meat shield'.     The problem is if you want the loose formation but with strict order or a Corporation where no one is in charge.   Lead, pally about or delegate, but do something that fits the theme of the org.

 

Practical knowledge is things like (i'm not in Pre Alpha, but I can hypothesize), what landscape is best for defense, what minerals are most efficient to process, if the terrain gives clues to the minerals, that kind of thing as well as having an idea of the most efficient way to produce a blueprint).

Great advice, but one thing that i'm not so sure about is practical knowledge. We have basic information from interviews, tutorials, and devblogs, but not of Alioth itself. What resources we'll be used to make ships, weapons, Res Nodes. Is scripting with Lua in DU different or is it the same. Just a few worries of mine

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18 minutes ago, Lulichika said:

So a central Leader is still needed to handle every single decision even if each city has 500 or so citizens, each with their own systems that need to managed

 

EG:  Nova Union has a city on Alioth, Thades, and Sicari with a 2 dozen outposts. Does every command go through him, or do 40% of the commands be made by local officials while 60 is made by the Leader? 

Depends on how lucky you are with recruiting.  It also depends what kind of leader you are: Charisma Boy or Organization Boy.     The first type makes people want to help him, the second type impresses people.    Don't try to be a cold, calculating Charisma Boy and don't try to be a Make It Up As You Go Along Organization boy.   You'll be given mixed signals and putting people at unease.     I tend to the lucky with people type, this person is good at this and that, would you like to do that?   I try to make an organization that doesn't have any real secrets (or I make light and try to sell them to you myself) which discourages spiess and agents and try to be light on centralized goods, which puts off scammers (though most EVE 'master scammers' are people who betrayed trust and try to make it seem warm and fuzzy by claiming it was 'years in the planning'.)

 

I do let people know that X Y and Z do the big decision making, just to save money on painkillers.

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4 minutes ago, Lulichika said:

Great advice, but one thing that i'm not so sure about is practical knowledge. We have basic information from interviews, tutorials, and devblogs, but not of Alioth itself. What resources we'll be used to make ships, weapons, Res Nodes. Is scripting with Lua in DU different or is it the same. Just a few worries of mine

Neither do I.  I just know that existing orgs will have them and new orgs will be late to the game.

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