Robotic workforce and fatorys

[unown]

So will DU be allowing a player the ability to make a robotic workforce that can do certain task? And if so will they be able to rebel? What are there limits? Can they be used for warfare? How smart can we make them?

[Nebenfigur]

AI/LUA/robots will be unable to fight/mine/build. There are some exceptions, but I'm too lazy to list them.

[Alsan Teamaro]

It's inevitable.... both things: robots in DU and this song...

 

 

[Veld]

What will we become of all our cheap noob labour? They have feelings too.

[Artificial_Intelligence]

How useful it would be for me to control a robotic workforce in this part of space.

 

But it appears there is a general ban on such technologies by the UMF or other entities, with exceptions being heavily regulated or restricted. I speak of experience. Forget your dreams of outsourcing manual labor, human, and be prepared for hard work.

 

It is the price you pay for your survival.

[ShioriStein]

We got certain automation but robot for task i think isnt. Just a DUMB machine do what it was program to do. Like go there, go here, stop , bla bla.

It smart i will rate as "doll" which cant move like it want because itsnt have one thinking function.

But it may be link Dawn of Synth in Stellaris if they can rebel and have feeling

[CalenLoki]

IMO just simple tasks. Like managing base storage (porter bots), building simple things (i.e. straight stone road for kilometres, simple tunnel), produce constructs from blueprints, patrol around bases (no shooting, just detecting), repair ships and bases after combat, recycle constructs, ect.

 

Just as complicated as players can program them. Without access to: resource mining, offensive weapons and resource scanners.

[CoreVamore]

28 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

IMO just simple tasks. Like managing base storage (porter bots), building simple things (i.e. straight stone road for kilometres, simple tunnel), produce constructs from blueprints, patrol around bases (no shooting, just detecting), repair ships and bases after combat, recycle constructs, ect.

 

Just as complicated as players can program them. Without access to: resource mining, offensive weapons and resource scanners.

Pretty sure most of that will be done by players.

[CalenLoki]

11 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Pretty sure most of that will be done by players.

Unfortunately you may be right.

Although one can always dream.

[unown]

18 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

Unfortunately you may be right.

Although one can always dream.

Dream I will

 

[Thainz]

This does make me wonder, why the lack of automation ability? Lets look at this from another perspective, real world vs dual universe. The real world did have lots of manual workers manning large machines individually but that was in the industrial age, where coal power was the main source of electricity and steam was the main work horse of factories. Dual universe is on a much grander level of existence, there are space ships for crying out loud! I do see the reason for limiting pvp AI but as far as workers go, I think that AI or at least automation/ drones should be allowed. In the United States we have issues with employment and wages. This is because of the automation in blue color jobs like manufacturing and mining. However these are jobs people want because they make money from them. In dual universe you will be paying a subscription fee every month to play the game. Now I must ask this question, why would people pay to play a game every month where they do menial tasks. the point of Dual universe as I see it is to make a economy, this economy does not rely on people getting resources, it depends on people playing the game, and trading among-st each other. having menial jobs will not encourage people to play the game. The end result will be no-mans sky, a huge universes with no players to inhabit it.  Lets now look at other games, first of all Planet Side 2. Why does this game work? It is free to play but pay to win, those who play for free are grunts in an army. Those who pay are commanders or especially powerful players. Shooting and fighting is much more fun than mining resources with no end in sight. Next game: Minecraft. this is a game that dual universe is often compared to. so what is the point of mine craft? once again automation. mods are created in mine craft to have an even higher ability to automate mining and resource production. The economy's in Dual universe should not be based on man power but instead ingenuity and automation. although LUA script is somewhat limited it is still powerful enough to make simple AI's and is most defiantly powerful enough to control autonomous robots and drones. I made a LUA AI that learned in 5 generations how to play tetris almost perfectly. And I have also made robots do simple tasks With LUA. 

 

My final thought is that Automation will be what makes, or what breaks, the player count  in dual universe. 

[dw_ace_918]

Interesting topic. I like robots. AI has a lot of potential in real life too. Isn't robotics and AI in dev background? It will be cool to see how we can use and create it. I remember reading how players would not have god power, but robots and AI is within the reach of man.

[NanoDot]

On 05/05/2018 at 9:46 PM, Thainz said:

Shooting and fighting is much more fun than mining resources with no end in sight

 

On 05/05/2018 at 9:46 PM, Thainz said:

My final thought is that Automation will be what makes, or what breaks, the player count  in dual universe. 

Your preferences shape your conclusion, of course.

 

Sounds like you'd prefer if ALL players could spend 90% of their game time in PVP, with the "boring" stuff like mining and manufacturing as automated as possible. Nothing wrong with that goal, provided you're the kind of player that likes to PVP all the time.

 

NQ are not marketing DU as a "PVP game" though. They are trying to provide activities that will accommodate a wide range of playstyles. DU has PVP, but it's not the focus of the game.

 

If you don't like mining and crafting, leave that to those who will enjoy it, and just buy your military gear on the market. That's how it's worked in EVE for the last 15 years...

[CalenLoki]

@NanoDot combat is just one example of non-menial job. But building, constructing, trading, spying, exploring, ect also fall into that category. So all activities that require players to make meaningful decisions. And I'd totally like to spend most of the time doing those.

 

Don't take his whole post as simple "hurr durr PvP all the time!". That's putting words into his mouth.

 

We'll see how interesting mining aspect in DU will be. No game so far made it anything but boring IMO, but who knows....

 

But yeah, the sowball effect of automation is real concern. It could quickly lead the wining side in a region to monopolie means of productions, making everyone else unable to ever come back into competition.

 

Unless automation is granted to everyone (basic resource income over time), but it's pretty much removing whole mining aspect from the game. And encourage botting (if require online presence) or multi-account (if not). Not gonna happen.

 

So our only hope is that NQ really make it nice. Or that population of people who enjoy pure relaxing life of a miner is large, so resources are cheap on the market.

[Aaron Cain]

Yeah, in the end thats the breaker, cheapness of materials. When materials are to costly in time or cash it will interfere with building and production and so on. And in the end the game must flow to keep players in.

[ShioriStein]

Well we should have some job for new bro come in. Just like a FORCE tutorial because i think not everyone will use tutorial.

[unown]

Good automation runs smoothly https://dualuniverse.gamepedia.com/Industrial_Unit

[Cookie]

Personally I am for automation and robots. Firstly this would certainly be one way for smaller organisations to compete with the larger organisations with huge amounts of resources and territory. Secondly in terms of balance while only proficient coders would be able to create these robots, this would take up a significant portion of time so I personally think it's only fair that they would be able to profit from their skills. Lastly, this adds to the immersion as you get a better sense of sci fi if say your walking round a station and see some patrol drones going up and down the corridors or customer support drones helping people to navigate through the station. 

That's just my personal opinion though, and I can certainly see why people might worry that this would be too op in game, and give the people building these robots too much power. On a side note I'm pretty sure that it was stated that only people can mine, so that's less of an issue.

 

[ShioriStein]

52 minutes ago, Gonk said:

Personally I am for automation and robots. Firstly this would certainly be one way for smaller organisations to compete with the larger organisations with huge amounts of resources and territory. Secondly in terms of balance while only proficient coders would be able to create these robots, this would take up a significant portion of time so I personally think it's only fair that they would be able to profit from their skills. Lastly, this adds to the immersion as you get a better sense of sci fi if say your walking round a station and see some patrol drones going up and down the corridors or customer support drones helping people to navigate through the station. 

That's just my personal opinion though, and I can certainly see why people might worry that this would be too op in game, and give the people building these robots too much power. On a side note I'm pretty sure that it was stated that only people can mine, so that's less of an issue.

 

If small org can compete with large org with robot and automation it is a broken feature. I know someone will say big org will monopoly but allow the small org have ability to compete with large org by robot/automation is a good thing ?

If small org can do it there will be a lot of one man Org and the good for being a large org will be gone. IT will be no point for being a large org.

You say only people can mine will decrease the OP of robot ?! I dont think so. in DU there is many thing to do with robot aside from mining. Battlebot, construct bot, transport bot, ... all make the life of small group easier and big group more bad.

[Aaron Cain]

Even with these arguments i agree with Gonk, and if a small org can build then and a large org can too but doesn't then the fault is in the large org. Immersion should include these possibility but then it will be relative, smaller orgs can only master a few robots due to their size and large orgs probably can fight out the complete clone wars sort of speaking.

 

So there is no breaking the game in this, just more fun. And frankly, if a large organization does not automatize because they have enough cannon fodder to get somewhere they have an inefficient mindset.

[ShioriStein]

i can understand your argument Aaron. But remember the more you big the more problem you have to deal with with little gain. The big thing i think every large or extra-large will have to deal with is their unity and control their org.

Those downside isnt appear with small group as they are small so they can easily control and hold unity easier than big org. As you say what you think can hold small org to build and master a number of robot small than a big org ? Dont underestimate dedicate player. IF there is a hole to exploit people will and always will try to exploit it.

Edited July 21, 2018 by ShioriStein
hole not hold damnit

[Cookie]

13 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

If small org can compete with large org with robot and automation it is a broken feature. I know someone will say big org will monopoly but allow the small org have ability to compete with large org by robot/automation is a good thing ?

If small org can do it there will be a lot of one man Org and the good for being a large org will be gone. IT will be no point for being a large org.

You say only people can mine will decrease the OP of robot ?! I dont think so. in DU there is many thing to do with robot aside from mining. Battlebot, construct bot, transport bot, ... all make the life of small group easier and big group more bad.

Does it though? I agree with what your saying that it will make the game easier for smaller groups using them, but it would also allow larger orgs to expand more. Secondly the main problem with mining robots is that they would be able to gather huge amounts of resources 24/7, whereas any automated ship will be weaker than player ships ("Weapons, when scripted, will be extremely inefficient or underpowered compared to unscripted weapons used by players (for example by limiting number of actions per second achieved by the script). This is to make the game more balanced" Dual Universe Wiki on LAU scripting). But it would allow smaller organisations who don't have members of larger organisations to defend their territory 24/7 to have some protection from pirate raids. In addition while they would be able to build structures quicker with construction bots, they would still need the resources to do so, hence they would not be able to build the same structures as larger organisations.

In my previous comment I probably should've specified this, as while these wouldn't make smaller organisations equal to larger organisations, they could still compete in the sense of being able to complete projects like building a space station at least near to the speed in which larger organisations can. 

Lastly, life of a larger organisation will not be made worse by additions of battlebot, construction bot, etc. Considering the large amount of resources they have to deal with, these would be very useful as battlebot's could be used as fighters like vulture droids, transport bots would help these larger organisations manage and transport their enormous quantities of resources a lot easier, and construction bots would allow them to complete huge projects a lot easier. 

In summary I probably shouldn't have said that small organisations will be able to compete with larger organisations, just that it would certainly benefit smaller organisations a lot.

[NanoDot]

One problem I see with the idea of "automated bots" is that it will massively increase server load, because each player can then control multiple constructs simultaneously. Each active construct will be a mobile core, and will have to be tracked by the servers so that they can be displayed in the game world and be shown on radar scans, etc. The amount of mobile constructs in a battle or player city will potentially double or triple (or more).

 

I suspect the server load implications are possibly a significant reason why NQ is against automated drones and bots...

[ShioriStein]

So @Gonk, you havent hear about "Swarm" ? Dont need to be efficent, just cheap and stupid straight to the enemy. While enemy is confuse by large amount of robot you can attack or keep the Swarm surround and shot un-accuracy but because there so many shot from many bot so in total it will be a huge fire power.

About if you are small how you can defend yourself it is very easy. Hire other or stand under some big Org's umbrella as they defend you. In DU dev have said they want people to work together not working separately and i can understand this.

Small org dont need bot still have ability to build like big org, they just need spend more time or more money from org pocket. In other word you cant compete or compete in some aspect with big org but still can hold both money and time.

As for @NanoDot : We dont know if it stress the server or not but at this point of time just assume it not first.

[NanoDot]

1 minute ago, ShioriStein said:

As for @NanoDot : We dont know if it stress the server or not but at this point of time just assume it not first.

That assumption wouldn't make sense.

 

We know that the amount of objects in the game world impacts ANY game. In the case of moving objects, that impact is higher. For instance, EVE severely limits which ships can deploy drones and how many they can deploy.

 

Without remotely controlled drones, the amount of moving constructs in DU cannot exceed the amount of active players, but if drones and bots become a thing, the amount of moving constructs at any given moment could increase by several orders of magnitude.