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Semproser

What exactly is the point of the MSAs

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Hi all,

 

So with the new support packs coming out, one of the reasons you might get one pack over the other is the "Sanctuary Territory Unit (STU)"

Their description is as follows:

  • Territories located in a Moon Secure Area are called “Sanctuary Territories”.
  • A player can claim a Sanctuary Territory with a Normal or Sanctuary Territory Unit. (Note: Sanctuary Territory Units are bound to account). The precise role and application of Sanctuary Territory Units will be explained in more detail at a later date.
  • On unclaimed Sanctuary Territories there are no offensive actions and nothing else is allowed.
  • On claimed Sanctuary Territories there are no offensive actions and everything else is subject to RDMS.
  • No valuable resources are available in the ground (only dirt and soil).

in the faq page and:

Sanctuary zones allow players located in it to build, socialize, store items, and do commerce. Note that the Sanctuary Territory Unit items can only be used within safe zones located on moons. Please refer to the FAQ for more info.

 

So I guess the idea is that we can set up businesses/shops/bases/certain types of cities in these areas, but I feel like the likelyhood of people clumping together to build commercialism outside of the biggest clans might be quite low. So what exactly does Novaquark have in mind for these tiles, and more importantly: how do you get them without buying into the alpha. Also if tiles are account bound does this mean they are more for personal and not intended for group use? It says "will be explained in more detail later" but faq like these are rarely updated timely, so do we already have said update?

 

Another fairly big concern of mine here: what stops people doing mining in dangerous places cheaply without real danger when they can just set up cheap mining and then transport goods into safezones? Why would anyone NOT do this? Therefore, how can attacking/raiding anywhere ever be lucrative?

 

Thanks in advance!

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I am more worried about PVP. If you can create Sanctuaries then it really defeats the purpose of PVP. You can't raid a big factory, a commercial spot, a military traning facility with tons of military gear stored there, cause all those things will be at the sanctuary. The assets of organizations will be literally untouchable, only resources may be the reason to fight, which is really disappointing and limits the opportunity for persistent wars over multiple assets of various importance.

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I think the idea is to give solo/small groups a safe place to store their assets while they are offline.  Just because there is a MSA, does not mean there will be a large city there.  

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found this info:

 

A Territory Unit is an inventory item that allows you to claim a hexagon of land in the game. When on a claimed hexagon, only the owner of that Territory Unit can build upon it. However, please keep in mind that this does not protect you from a player’s direct assault.

There are two kinds of Territory Units:

  • Normal Territory Units
  • Sanctuary Territory Units

 

Normal Territory Units can be crafted or bought using in-game currency up to a certain limit. They are restricted to:

  • Normal territories, which are the large majority of the game space. In a normal territory, all offensive actions are allowed.
  • Guarded territories, which are territories under the protection of the Arkship and will be located around it. In a guarded territory, players may not initiate any offensive action.

 

Normal territories owned by players are subject to rights management such as restrictions on mining, crafting, and building. By default, players can build, mine, and craft on unclaimed normal territories.

Sanctuary Territory Units are restricted to the Sanctuary territories. These territories are located on special moons called Sanctuary Moons. In a sanctuary territory, players may not initiate any offensive action. Sanctuary territories owned by players are subject to rights management such as restrictions on mining, crafting, and building. By default, players cannot build, mine, or craft on unclaimed sanctuary territory.

Sanctuary Territory Units can be purchased through the future in-game shop using real currency up to a certain limit. Upon starting Dual Universe, each player will receive a free Sanctuary Territory Unit in their inventory.

For more information about territory protection mechanics, you can read our DevBlog post here.

 

But it doesnt address my later PVP concerns or group vs personal use questions.

 

That last part is weird though, as alpha 2 backers ("Contributors", 60 Euro) seemingly wont get one? 

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4 minutes ago, Ataren said:

I am more worried about PVP. If you can create Sanctuaries then it really defeats the purpose of PVP. You can't raid a big factory, a commercial spot, a military traning facility with tons of military gear stored there, cause all those things will be at the sanctuary. The assets of organizations will be literally untouchable, only resources may be the reason to fight, which is really disappointing and limits the opportunity for persistent wars over multiple assets of various importance.

This is precisely why there are NO resources on MSA territory.  Yes an org can store their stuff safely in MSAs, just as a solo/small group can.  However, the question is... how quickly can you get those assets to a hotspot?  If an org leaves all of their military power inside of a safezone, it will be hard for them to respond to threats on their resources outside of the MSA.

 

@OP

To answer one of your questions, you can claim a MSA with a territory control unit which is craftable in game.  AFAIK

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MSAs or Moon Secure Areas are Locations similar to the Arkship Secure Areas where those worried about pvp can safely build and set-up their bases and/or constructs.

PvP is restricted in these
They hold no valuables at all in regards to mining


More info can be found here @Semproser:

http://dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/

and here:

http://dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/03/02/more-info-on-sanctuary-territory-units/

 

 

~ Meldrik

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To avoid having this same topic being debated yet again in the forums:

Please head over to:


Questions have been answered and addressed officially from Novaquark.


~ Meldrik

Edited by Mod-Meldrik

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I've gone through that and I'm still not seeing a reason anyone would ever put time into building OUTSIDE a safezone, therefore what ever will there be to do PVP with? Why DOES someone build something outside the safezone where they can't be raided and cant lose their stuff - hence how can raiding or war ever be a viable option? Surely you can just mine your stuff cheaply without any non essential structures and transport the goods frequently, leaving little to ever plunder. If a secret and evil organisation wanted to steal from the USA then they rob a bank, not steal a lumberjacks wallet while he cuts wood. 

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You missed the fact that not all moons will have MSA. That larger orgs can easily secure areas on a planet and use the shield generators that will be in the game later on not to mention have the fire power to protect it. You say what stops people from building inside the MSA. Well counter point what stops me from camping outside the MSA and waiting for goods to be transported in or out?

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2 minutes ago, The_War_Doctor said:

You missed the fact that not all moons will have MSA. That larger orgs can easily secure areas on a planet and use the shield generators that will be in the game later on not to mention have the fire power to protect it. You say what stops people from building inside the MSA. Well counter point what stops me from camping outside the MSA and waiting for goods to be transported in or out?

But why bother with the risk. Why have a bank in an area that could be attacked when you could put it in an 100% safe invulnerable area. People can camp outside non-msa bases too, but they can also attack it too. Does anyone know how raw resource to general currency or other usable items will work? (like buildable ATMS, markets/general markets - where?) Will you really ever need to take things out of their safety?

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I think attacking a ship full of minerals on it's way to or from a secure area would still be perfectly viable.  Likewise, if orgs get into a disagreement over minerals rights in a certain area, then they could certainly go to war over it.  So I think there will be lots of loss and pvp, but MSAs just ensure that no one loses it all, and have something to work with if their ship full of minerals is hijacked by pirates.

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For a market to be successful it has to be easy to get to. Markets are only local. you cant access it from half a system away. Destroying a building isnt as easy as you think either. or it wont be. Its been stated that if a building is destroyed that there is a snapshot saved of it to easily rebuild it.

not to mention just the sheer logistics of transporting so much resources just to build in a singluar MSA

 

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@Semproser

 

I think your missing the big picture.

 

In this game things won't be as easy as you think. Mining will be hard and time consuming, to locate good materials, then harvesting those materials. During that time players will be vulnerable to attack. So, players will have to build a base or defense at the mining site to protect it while they gather resources. An space travel isn't super fast like in most space games. Travel between planets will be a long voyage, which makes transporting goods to secure territory even more risky.

Then you still have crafting to refine those raw materials into something usable. An that doesn't include building and manufacturing. An the whole time a player or org is doing that they will be vulnerable to getting attacked.

 

The Moons have Zero valuable resources, and Alioth only has low value resources. So players will have to venture out if they want to get materials to build anything important in the game. And that's when they are vulnerable to attack.

Also, if you really take the time to think about it, the savezones in the game are a tiny compared to the rest of the game. only a few thousand kilometers around the Arkship, and one moon. The rest of Alioth, and 5 other planets is open to combat. Players have no choice but to venture out to gather resources.

 

If you just want to do running and gunning style pew pew, then this games is probably not for you, I'd recommend the game "Angels fall First". That's a pvp focused space game that has that type of gameplay. This game is focused on on rebuilding civilization, and you can't do that without stability. If this was just free for all PVP, then there wouldn't be any savezones.

 

Think about it this way, Players and Orgs will be constantly thinking up clever ways to defend and protect themselves, so they can build their civilization. So if you want to attack people, then you need to be equally as clever, an think up good strategies.

 

Also, their is another angle you should consider, and that's espionage and the meta game. Its no secret around here that some Organizations already have spy's everywhere, and are planning to destroy other Organizations from the inside. Those spies can simply steal any resources. If anything, the sanctuaries and savezones are just a false since of security. 

 

 

 

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@Semproser There are no vaults in Dual Universe, every item looted ingame must be moved by hand (or ship ^^). So, like in real world, moving valuable is risky by nature.

Moreover, IRL, well defended banks are not a main target. It's easier to attack a fund carrier or a depot in a remote area.

 

And to answer your worries about STU and normal TU, they are items that you can buy and build ingame at anytime. But they are planned to be quite expensive, so it's a free valuable item included with some packs. Find more here: https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/03/02/more-info-on-sanctuary-territory-units/

 

To come back to pvp, anyway from my experience, this kind of debate has no object and is an epiphenomenon of the stereotype war between PvP gamestyle and no-PvP gamestyle. And it's easy to illustrate that with a counter example:

 

Take a free PvP server in Space Engineers.

 

What happens? Nothing. Really Nothing.

 

Why? Because valorous PvP players are hidding, they are completely afraid to lose their precious assets. So, nothing happens, not even trade or RP or anything because if you give your location, you are sure to be raided sooner or later. It's a big difference between a game simulating a huge virtual space like SE or DU and a calculating game like Ogame or maybe EVE Online.

Thinking like this, it's logical to create safe zones if NQ wants to bring life in its game. Not to mention the fact that DU is not only a pvp game, it's also a crafting game, and with no creative mode, there are no other choices. Doing so, everyone has a better chance to find a place and make an interesting ingame economy.

 

Hope it's more clear now.

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Sorry for the double post, but I thought of something else.

 

So, lets say an Org builds a base in a sanctuary territory on the moon. You can't attack them or their base in that zone, but technically you can blockade the area around the planet with ships, and just wait for them the show up with those valuable resources they are bringing to their base. That's the double edge sword of having a base, you unintentionally make yourself easy to find.

 

My mind is imagining emergent gameplay scenarios like, if an Org builds a big commerce city on sanctuary territory, and another Org wants to disrupt their cash flow. They could send a big fleet to that location and force any incoming ships to turn around, and destroy any ships trying to leave, and with no more players going to the city to spend money, that Orgs income and resources will be hurt. So, the Org that controls the city, will have no choice but to send their own fleet to fight off the Blockade. An boom, big space battle ensues.

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The only thing that really counts is that rare resources aren't located anywhere near ASA/MSA. This forces players outside of they want to make more money or build better constructs.

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I see little issues with this. In fact, I like the idea of STUs. An okay-ish or good compromise catering to different audiences while those using them will still not be completely untouchable. 

 

Why or how has been mentioned prior by various people. 

 

In turn let's say there will be some war. Enemy might have backup materials or valuables stored in STUs area. You might not be able to target it directly but it can essentially turn into a material war. If the other side gets blockaded or if they run out of resources, use up the things in the STU and can't throw more at you, then that's also damage to them or victory for you. 

 

I again think the general idea is good and while it might prolong some wars, it also gives builders or creators (or businessmen) a place to live or act in relative peace. 

 

A compromise of sorts, bridging various types of players. 

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Fact of life is, you can't live in a constant state of fear. 

 

There needs to be a moment where you can relax, breath and enjoy what's in front of you. Nothing but the fear of death all the time would get boring for a lot of people. So I think these safe tiles are a great addition to the game. 

 

I don't think diminishing pvp is a concern, just the opposite in fact. They create yet another way to express yourself beyond "blowing things up". It creates the mechanics for blockades and a lot more that I can't think of. 

 

In the end I see this as just another way by NQ to bring some balance between 2 opposing spectrums. The builders and the destroyers. 

 

If you can sell your MSA tile it might become even more interesting. 

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I think the MSAs will provide a good first goal for all players to get somewhere where their stuff is safe, but I can foresee there will be massive piracy going on the moment you hit space. Depending on the distance between the safeties of Alioth and its MSA moon, this will be a more or less major attraction for well armed shuttle services, or wing-man accompanyment.

It is my guess that most private resource transport in and out will be well advised to pay for protection - the worst areas of the universe will be right next to the safest!

Literally on the other side of this, there is the question of transportation from other planets and systems. It has been mentioned: the slippery slope between areas of risk+fun and relative safety+boredom. I hope transporting a valuable cargo does not mean flying for 1 hour in relative but boring safety, and only then running a 10-minute gauntlet of risk.

 

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12 hours ago, Ataren said:

I am more worried about PVP.

 

DU is first a community/society building MMO with PVP elements to be implemented at a later phase (but prior to release). 

 

As always the PVP oriented players will complain about anything that prevents their preferred play style as will those who are not PVP oriented will about the lack of 'safe guards' against PVP. With the known 'limitations' and requirements for these STUs and the need to still get whatever you want to do there into it there is opportunities for the war/conflict seeking play styles to try and get a hit off. It's a matter of balance and frankly, this sounds to me like a pretty decent one.

 

This also opens up a number of possible options for PVP not as obvious as firing guns.. Infiltration being one of them.. 

 

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43 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

This also opens up a number of possible options for PVP not as obvious as firing guns.. Infiltration being one of them..

I think that the rights management and tag system will make things pretty hard for infiltrators. They will act like clearance codes and each security level will limit the damage an infiltrator to that level can do. 

Yes, the ability to steal a ship and cargo may be seen quite often as an infiltration objective, but I think the MSAs that this topic is about will be pretty secure on the inside [I mean the bases that get built in the STUs there], as well as being unattackable because nothing offensive will be active.

Edited by dualism
clarity

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Little can protect the average group against infiltration attempts. It can only get harder, but not be impossible

Unless you do not recruit at all. And depending on size or background, maybe not even that. 

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I think another important aspect of gameplay to consider is shipping costs of goods. NQ can easily implement mechanics that make it beneficial to process material on site. Example raw Iron ore weighs 10 and refines to something usable that weighs 1. If you want to be safe and process the ore at your MSA you have to transport 10x the weight as someone who risks refining on/close to the source of ore. Another example is fuel/power, small bases may only require some solar panels to keep the lights on. Large factories may require harvest-able material to generate large amounts of power. If you want to have a "safe" factory you will have to import/transport both material for ships and for power. You are far better of partnering with a mining company and building your factory with them, sharing the protection bubble and making it stronger and greatly saving on transport costs and risks(pirates). So the only thing that would be safe at MSA would be finished products which I am ok with, there is still lots of opportunity to pvp, steal, and pirate.

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You guys are OUT-THINKING YOURSELVES here.

 

Number 1: They're boot-strapping the development of the game in tandem with the growing population of players.

 

Think about it to make sense of what that statement means:-

 

DU is the "Civilization Building MMO": Where FORM = SCI-FI + FUNCTION = VOXEL GAMEPLAY are merged together.

 

That's the game! It is being built right now via the dev tech at NQ.

 

1) That is going to be huge huge gameplay creativity space. So do it.

2) That means safe spaces to advertise that you can just get on with building by finding a place in these things as per advertised (see the title again).

3) This core gameplay will be available SOONEST. This is proven whatever anyone wants to say eg pre-alpha early...

4) It will take time to mesh systems on top of this, a lot of time and iteration to get a balance.

5) The space taken by these safe places is TINY compared to how much MORE space/land there is elsewhere: Absolutely they're going to provide tons of space for people who just want to build. Relatively they're insignificant.

 

Personally I envision a day years ahead where these bootstraps are no longer needed: The whole player base will have developed player-emergent interactions that self-organize some accommodation or other for builders, OR/Same thing, everyone gets over their own hump and realizes DU will work just fine in whatever way you are interested in. Then and again these things could become some raging success story... and who knows where that will take us...

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