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ZipSnipe

LAG free battles

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So coming from Empyrion Galactic Survival. Which this game is very similar to I have to say this . I am very skeptical of this game.

So question to the developers, have you looked at these games and what causes lag and what is your prevention of lag.

Lets talk about players , there two camps PVE'ers and PVP'ers.

PVE'ers like to build beautiful bases with fancy colors , devices and ships and they will saturate a playfield with many many objects, thus create lag.

PVP'ers  like to fight.  In this process they build  bigger and better war machines and bases.  If its 2 vs 2 players the lag is usually manageable , but throw in faction vs faction say 5 vs 5, coupled with bases , war machines and fighters.  Now all these guns maybe in the hundreds will start firing, explosions, etc.  and now we have lag

I see all the videos the devs put up , I see the crowd funding incentives, I see people wanting this game to be great including me BUT I will not pay a penny for any game that will end up being another lag fest.

Make the the game pretty all you want but if you don't address the scenarios above this game will go the way of No Mans SKy


PS  I wanna point out a game that has huge battles with very manageable lag and sometimes no lag and that is Planetside 2.  I have been in battles where it was 1000 vs 1000 people, it was awesome !!!!
So look for that balance there and you will have a winner

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26 minutes ago, ZipSnipe said:

I see all the videos the devs put up , I see the crowd funding incentives, I see people wanting this game to be great including me BUT I will not pay a penny for any game that will end up being another lag fest.

 

so you saw all the videos but were to lazy to read the dev journals? I'd suggest you to do so before writing something in such an agressive manner (not exactly the most intelligent way to make yourself known to a community)

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Watch the server tech videos and read their devblog about it. 

 

It's understandable that ppl are sceptical and that's fine. Alpha will start in about a month and those thousand or so will tell you what it's like

 

Just on a sidenote:

There is no classical pve in DU.

And maybe watch your passive aggressiveness there a bit, two out of three is an achievement only our kitty is capable of

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If you are skeptical about some game-play aspect or the game in general, don't pay to play it during the alpha which is going to be probably bug riddled and, as clearly stated by JC, only a small part of total future game-play. Just wait till you can hear from people who are in the Alpha and Beta phases to tell you what the game is like and whether the game is going to succeed from their perspective, according to the progression of the game development that is yet to be seen in constant updated detail. Also I have to agree with @Lethys; just wait for full launch and play the free trial period. If you don't think you will play the game, then you have lost nothing.

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6 hours ago, vylqun said:

 

so you saw all the videos but were to lazy to read the dev journals? I'd suggest you to do so before writing something in such an agressive manner (not exactly the most intelligent way to make yourself known to a community)

 

For an accusation of an aggressive post, that is an awfully aggressive response. He asked a valid question, and it is our job to provide an answer.

 

@ZipSnipe, I understand your concerns. The truth is that there are two types of lag: Client side lag and Server side lag. Client side lag is usually an issue of the player's computer not being powerful enough to render everything that is happening on screen, or to calculate everything that needs to be calculated. The devs can address this by optimizing the graphics and code of the game as much as possible to reduce the strain of running it, but at the end of the day if this is the main source of lag the only option is to upgrade your PC. The other type of lag is server side lag, which involves either the server not being able to run everything it has to, or the communication between the server and the client not happening in an efficient manner. NQ's server technology is designed to tackle both of those issues. The server system dynamically partitions space onto different nodes of the server and prioritizes updates from closer nodes. This prevents any one node from getting overloaded and it also reduces the amount of updates that must be sent to the client. They detailed that in several of their dev diaries and dev blogs. 

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1 hour ago, Lord_Void said:

 

He asked a valid question, and it is our job to provide an answer.

 

no, our "job" is it to review the devblogs and other sources of information about DU and give our suggestions as well as looking for bugs/exploits and similar as soon as the alpha starts, we're not community managers :). We may answer questions if we feel like it, but we aren't obligated to do so (and yes, we are allowed to give offtopic responses to questions in the general forum area^^).

 

Besides, you can't really call the thread a question, it was more like belittling the effort of the devs to make the game look "pretty" stating that it would lead to lag and claiming the devs wouldn't have adressed that problem yet. So all in all "read the devblogs" is an appropriate answer.

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7 minutes ago, vylqun said:

no, our "job" is it to review the devblogs and other sources of information about DU

 

Alright, job was not the correct word to use, I'll give you that. How about this: it is in our best interest to help provide answers to people with questions so that they will join our community and help it grow. Telling them they are lazy or unintelligent for not having read or watched every piece of information put out over the last two years is not only unproductive, it spawns a group of people who feel wronged by the community and will do their best to tell everyone else about their negative experience.

 

It may not have had a question mark, but there was essentially a question in it. Helping to answer that implied question not only addresses their concerns, but also encourages them to seek out more information. 

 

I'm not trying to tell how you can or can't respond, since I don't have that right. All I'm saying is that attacking someone for attacking someone/something is a bit hypocritical. 

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Hey this post is really aimed at the developers. It is my hope they  take in account that in a game like this which everyone should agree is following the footsteps of games like Space Engineers and Empyrion. That people will create which is what the game is allowing but the creations can cause lag and I have seen the video where it divides the server into boxes and that is great I hope it is a better method than SE or EGS. 

Hey I just want this game to be worth putting money into, I am not putting the game down and no I haven't read all dev logs but I will.  ME and my faction mates have been eyeing this game for some time and were ready to jump in, I just don't want it to be a prettied up version of Empyrion.

Thanx for the replies mates

 

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2 hours ago, ZipSnipe said:

I hope it is a better method than SE or EGS. 

 

It is :) it is revolutionary. 

 

2 hours ago, ZipSnipe said:

Hey I just want this game to be worth putting money into, I am not putting the game down and no I haven't read all dev logs but I will.  ME and my faction mates have been eyeing this game for some time and were ready to jump in, I just don't want it to be a prettied up version of Empyrio

 

Perfectly fair. Luckily, this game is not dependent on continued crowdfunding in order to keep it afloat. Alpha should be here in a little over a month, so check back then to start seeing a taste of more complete (not completed, just more complete) gameplay. Launch is not predicted till the end of 2018 and hopefully by then there will be enough to convince you that the game is solid and that your concerns are not an issue. In the mean time, take care :) 

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13 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

 

Alright, job was not the correct word to use, I'll give you that. How about this: it is in our best interest to help provide answers to people with questions so that they will join our community and help it grow. Telling them they are lazy or unintelligent for not having read or watched every piece of information put out over the last two years is not only unproductive, it spawns a group of people who feel wronged by the community and will do their best to tell everyone else about their negative experience.

 

It may not have had a question mark, but there was essentially a question in it. Helping to answer that implied question not only addresses their concerns, but also encourages them to seek out more information. 

 

I'm not trying to tell how you can or can't respond, since I don't have that right. All I'm saying is that attacking someone for attacking someone/something is a bit hypocritical. 

 

Great answer Lord_Void and really exemplary behavior.

 

I want this game to succeed... I want it a lot actually. But honestly, I have seen a lot of great ideas generated by game developers and still those ideas either have not been implemented or there were not enough technical capabilities to implement them. I am not IT specialist, neither engineer and I can't judge if the plans of NQ are valid and achievable. Therefore I fully understand skepticism of topic starter - I am bit skeptic myself. But people like Lord_Void make me want this game to succeed even more as it would be pleasure to play the same game with such a nice person.

 

While people like vylqun make totally different, opposite impression. If you are irritated by people who know less than you, did not read all the dev. blogs/logs and so on... just avoid threads like this... that will be way more useful for them, game community and... yourself too. If you can't/don't want / don't know how to help these people, then don't do anything - others who want/know/like helping (like Lord_Void ) will do it without frustration and everything will be fine.

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14 hours ago, ZipSnipe said:

Hey this post is really aimed at the developers.

They will respond if they feel its necessary and have time, meanwhile i'd like to point out that they have shown in at least two different videos their simulation of 1000 players densely populating a small area. You gave me the impression that you haven't seen that and if i'm right i'd recommend watching as they explain their method of dealing with it

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9 hours ago, Kirtis said:

 

Great answer Lord_Void and really exemplary behavior.

 

I want this game to succeed... I want it a lot actually. But honestly, I have seen a lot of great ideas generated by game developers and still those ideas either have not been implemented or there were not enough technical capabilities to implement them. I am not IT specialist, neither engineer and I can't judge if the plans of NQ are valid and achievable. Therefore I fully understand skepticism of topic starter - I am bit skeptic myself. But people like Lord_Void make me want this game to succeed even more as it would be pleasure to play the same game with such a nice person.

 

While people like vylqun make totally different, opposite impression. If you are irritated by people who know less than you, did not read all the dev. blogs/logs and so on... just avoid threads like this... that will be way more useful for them, game community and... yourself too. If you can't/don't want / don't know how to help these people, then don't do anything - others who want/know/like helping (like Lord_Void ) will do it without frustration and everything will be fine.

 

I really appreciate the complement :) It brought a smile to my face. However, don't deify me because of one post. I have made a *lot* of posts and there are a few I'm not proud of. Likewise don't villainize @vylqun based on a couple posts. He is not a bad person by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I think the important thing is to build our community positively, and convince skeptics through tangible proof (as it comes) and with presentation of information rather than force of argument. I'm glad to hear that I have made a positive impact on your DU experience @Kirtis and I hope that when the game comes out it will comfort everyone's concerns and that you will join us in exploring the stars. :)

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23 hours ago, Kirtis said:

While people like vylqun make totally different, opposite impression. If you are irritated by people who know less than you, did not read all the dev. blogs/logs and so on... just avoid threads like this... that will be way more useful for them, game community and... yourself too. If you can't/don't want / don't know how to help these people, then don't do anything

 

we could now lead a discussion about why a healthy community shouldn't welcome every kind of attitude in posts and what the best reaction towards those attitudes is (pampering or ignoring isn't always the best answer), but that would be far to offtopic, so i will avoid doing so^^.

 

Just let me point out that i never said people who know less then me aren't allowed to ask, its the way the questions are written which is important.

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My understanding is there are two main reasons for lag.

 

1.  Graphics rendering of everything on screen.

2.  User bandwidth bottleneck, for transmitting data.

 

I'm not a graphics guy, and I couldn't say how NQ plans to keep rendering under control. 

 

However, NQ has indicated that player positional coordinates will be updated on the game client by proximity to the player.  This will allow for larger battles.  I would ALSO recommend to NQ that if they are already prioritizing players by proximity, then they could also set the highest priority to players who have damaged you, or you have damaged in the past 30 seconds.  Possibly prioritizing the player that is also in your cross hairs.

 

A second aspect of network bandwidth that concerns me is all of the uniquely created models.  If players are cranking out thousands of models a day, then those models will need to be downloaded to each client PC.  We know we don't have to download the models until we get within range of them, but consider flying into a new city on a planet you haven't visited recently.  There would be a HUGE amount of models that need to be updated.  I can't speak for the file size of each model, but I would guess it could impact performance.

 

We will just have to wait and see.

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Hi ZipSnipe and Kirtis, 
welcome on the official Dual Universe forum!

 

- It's true the introduction post was a bit brutal. It's understandable as many developers released games promised a lot and didn't met the expectations of the players, and now every game projects having any significant ambition is welcome with caution, suspicion and/or disbelief. And that's okay. We don't ask to be believed just with words. We force no one to support us before having seen the game. We understand your decision. We have no problem with that.

 

- It's also true vylqun's answer was a bit brutal as well. It's understandable as we had many aggressive introduction in the past from people who think to know what Dual Universe is about and bash it, before even inform themselves on the game. So those who took the time to inform themselves have sometimes to a hard time to answer kindly to this kind of introduction post.

 

- Regarding the role of the veteran community members (and especially the members of the ATV group):
True, we are happy to get feedback from the active members, but we are also happy if they welcome the new members and help them to integrate the community: "welcoming new comers and reply to their questions, even obvious ones without being rude" is one of the factor on which the ATV members can be selected as mentioned there

 

Now to answer the main question of the topic:

 

Games like Space Engineers or Empyrion were originally designed to be multiplayer for small groups of players, hosted on private/personal servers. Going this way has its pros and cons. Among the pros, there are some that made the popularity of these games like the physics applied to voxels where you can ram into a spaceship with another spaceship and breaking it in two parts moving independently. It's this kind of "waow" effect who made Space Engineers well known for example. The problem here is this kind of things is hardly compatible with massively multiplayer technology (if you want to avoid big lag problems), at least with the current level of technology across the world and the average internet bandwith of a player. 

 

In Dual Universe, this is the kind of topic that we decided to "sacrifice": where Space Engineers put physics applied on voxels at the top priority (and it makes sense if you aim for a multiplayer game with a few friends), we put the priority on the massively multiplayer environment, while physics come second. This is essential for a single-shard universe (where the whole community is gathered on one server cluster). If we can implement physics in some aspects without stressing too much the server where we are in a situation with hundreds or event thousands of players gathering at the same place, then we will probably implement it. However, physics applied to voxels, water physics and other type of realistic features that are "unfriendly" with massively multiplayer environment will most probably never implemented unless there is a technology breakthrough to handle that properly in a MMORPG. 

 

Large scale battles of Planetside 2 are also a great achievement, but they can't push much further as FPS real time mechanics can become a factor that limits the massively multiplayer environment. That's why we opted for a "lock and fire" mechanics in PvP combat similar to EvE Online, instead of FPS Mechanics a la Planetside 2. "lock and fire" mechanics enable us to refresh the position of players very far away less frequently without making it a gameplay issue = less data to transmit to all clients = more massively multiplayer friendly.

 

In the nutshell:
- We are favoring massively multiplayer environment (trying to avoid as much lag as possible) over physics.
- We are favoring massively mutliplayer environment by chosing massively multiplayer PvP mechanics optimized for it ("Lock & Fire").

 

So we are not trying to make a perfect game impossible to make.
We had to take tough design decisions to make the best game possible while keeping in mind the constraints to make it doable.

 

That doesn't mean either we promise there will never be any lag: so many factors come into play that there might be situations where you will have lag, depending on your computer configuration, your internet bandwith, the ping you have, etc... But we will do our best to minimize the lag whenever it's possible. That's one of our priorities.

 

Best Regards,
Nyzaltar.

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Hello @ZipSnipe

 

Welcome to community.

Knowing you coming from Empyrion Galactic Survival and probably familiar with SE as a similar type of game you may have a certain expectations.

But you also know about what's wrong with SE and Empyrion. Those games do not provide one thing everyone after a while will start looking for.

 

A goal.

You can gather with few friends, build your base, ships. But after a while you ending up wandering around aimlessly. No matter how much you like building stuff, the most exiting stuff in Empyrion and SE is first 2-3 days of game play. When you building your new cool project or idea coming along.

 

I know that from experience, as I played both of those games a lot. What personally attracted me to DU was the fact they started with MMO in mind first. Sure there are sacrifices needs to be made in physics, battle system etc, but server technology behind DU is impressive. Having thousands of people on the same server is something that SE or Empyrion will never ever be able to achieve. And this is a first condition to add a sense to the game play.

 

I have seen many attempts to build bigger servers, provide some scenarios, economy systems, build worlds and there was many nice ideas, even multi-instances to overcome limitations of those games came into play. But ultimately those games cannot handle more than 50k dynamic blocks/voxels at the same time to provide a smooth game play. No matter how hard they will try those games will never be a truly multiplayer games. More co-op category kind of thing. Even single player can build massive construct that will drop sim speed to unplayable levels.

 

DU on top of promise of being proper MMO game will give you economy, politics and players itself will build a world and scenarios around themselves. As oppose to trying to convince you to 1 scenario or give you aimless game play. Only because long term game play in single server will be possible. How many wipe-outs did you survive on the other titles? As many to bring you back to the beginning, to the most interesting part of those games ;). But we all wished for a bit more. And this is why we ended up here. ;)

 

I see you jumping to conclusions early, in fact nobody here knows how well it all perform. But if you spent some time around the dev blogs you would recognise the spirit behind NQ developers and understood the vision behind the project. With this understanding you would recognise that comparing DU to Empyrion many here could take as an insult and react a bit to harsh.

 

Think about DU as a combination of SE/Empyrion, Minecraft/ Eve Online/ Entropia Universe and you will see how much more is into it. Do not expect realistic physics simulation on grand scale, or welding blocks in stages (that I would argue about realism of it anyway ;) ) there will be simplification in many areas crucial to run this smoothly. But one thing for sure, the goal will be to accommodate as many players at the same world with a assumption each may have some firepower and start a epic battle at some point. I don't think anybody gives up on this part here ;)

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