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An idea: A German state in Dual Universe? - Phase 1

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The thread title is somewhat explanatory. But let's jump in further.
 
 

lS4DpL3.png

 
 

Vat? What? A German* state in Dual Universe
=====================================================================================


A country, state, republic (etc.) with German cultural influences, modelled either after a modern day Germany or a somewhat imperial version (think of WW1 ... not WW2). Ideally filled with / supported by German speaking players but open to others in general in the end. This thread is supposed to promote the idea and to roughly assess interest in this idea through user commentary on the subject.

TL;DR: Interested in (or against) a nation type of organization with more heavy German influences or mostly organized and founded by German speaking players for those and potentially others? Comment below.
 
*Open to any German speaker including those from Austria, Switzerland and beyond - more on this below

 

Inspiration and lore

=====================================================================================

 

Inspiration from this can be found in a game called "Freelancer". Long story short, in the future there is a war in this solar system between an "Alliance" (the western cultures and factions) and a "Coalition" (you may have guessed it, certain Eastern countries or cultures). Over a long period, the Coalition finally gets the upper hand. In a last move, a hand full of Alliance sleeper ships break through a blockade and head for a far-away sector in space where they intend to rebuild, away from their enemy. The unique trait among the sleeper ships is that each mostly contained people of a certain heritage, and each ship would form a new state in the new sector inspired by it - you'd see four states in the game covering a state modelled after the United States, England, Germany and Japan, or those cultural influences respectively.

 

Liberty - Bretonia - Rhineland - Kusari: Each a piece of the past, continued in the future.

 

If you look at it superficially, the story there isn't overly different from the one we have in Dual Universe - sure, humanity does not appear to be at war with each other and rather trying to get away from Earth, just like those sleeper ships in "Freelancer". But is it too strange to assume that old things might be carried over into the new home?

 

Let us look just look briefly at Freelancer again: Despite there basically being just two power blocks left in that long war, the survivors of the last battle still formed new individual states - just like the community in Dual Universe forms new unique factions. Is it that far off to see nations or states form based on culture. I don't think so, thus it seems that no matter how the world may have looked at the time of departure, we might find a logical explanation for this project and endeavour.

 

Doubts? Specifics? That is up for debate - take part in it!
 

 

What do we look for? What don't we look for? Specifics?

=====================================================================================

 

This is essentially Phase 1 - trying to find volunteers for a basic foundation that may or may not grow over time. The German(-speaking) community, and then the general community will have to decide over time whether there is hard demand for this or not.

 

The idea of a German state isn't just self-service for select few. There is a potential unique positive aspect: serving as general anchor or place to go for the German(-speaking) community and players to come later on. Why is it a state? The idea is to go beyond classic organizations and incorporate a wider array of people by default.

 

Let's start with a simple definition or formula of what we need. Georg Jellinek once defined what would somewhat translate to "3-element-theory" in terms of what defines a state:

 

  • People
  • Territory
  • An authority, a government, a ruling power

 

The idea, therefore, is to later have citizens (think of main residents; next to guests, visitors, tourists, etc), a location in space, like a part of a planet like today, a complete planet, a partial / complete solar system or sector and some form of government.

 

But how should it look like?

That's yet uncertain. The initial idea is that it either looks like a modern Germany and parliamentary republic, thus, with votes of some kind or some eventual rotation of offices and what not or some more ... static structure, like some form of monarchy perhaps. This is mostly a choice for structure and changes and then a bit of style so far. There is no intend to revive any parts of actual history in how it progressed. No matter the form, whether there will be some Emperor or Chancellor as head of state/government or whatever, we look for a modern day approach to politics and thus no warmongering state or mentality unless things naturally develop like this. Diplomatic relations to other entities will therefore be expected.

 

 

Who do we look for primarily so far?

Right now, what is needed is people willing to support - either as future citizens or, ideally, as members of the government in some fashion or form who will form the foundation.

 

Anyone can in theory take part, but for core government positions we look for German-speaking people due to the fact that despite translations, a lot will later be handled in German in internal or local communication on platforms or in the game, and to keep it somewhat authentic to some level. This may ease up later and change, open up, so to speak, but for now you should ideally be German-speaking, while you do not necessarily have to be from Germany or an actual German citizen. Austrians, Swiss and others can thus take part if they have sufficient language skills.

 

For core government positions on an upper level, you ideally:

 

  • have sufficient German and English skills (this is why this is in English in the first place and not German)
  • are of somewhat more mature character or mindset when it matters
  • can provide a certain time commitment per week
  • are willing to actively take part and provide feedback while you respect others in the process

 

It won't be a walk in the park, thus certain requirement must be set. These are just initial core expectations from what I can tell so far; Multimedia and other skills might factor in as well at one point.

 

 

Interested?

=====================================================================================

 

Simply express it here or send me a message. If there is enough (long-term) demand and participation, a formal organization can be created once certain specifics have been set. Other assets can then also be created or maintained.

 

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To me it's just natural that players with the same language band together and conglomerate, be it a server or as in this case a nation.

Germans form the core part of EVEs industry (yes, there are statistics) so why not in DU too, or something else?

 

I wouldn't run it as a nation at first, because we lack vital parts of game mechanics for now. But the foundation can be layed now.

 

I'm personally not interested in running a nation (petty politics in games, just enough freedom...) But I'd offer my help in communication and advice if needed.

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Hallo Wraden,

eine tolle Idee, aber gleich einen Staat ?

Eine deutschsprachige Straße die, wenn sie von der ARK in das neue Universum führt, ja auch eine Struktur darstellt und verwaltet werden muß, sehe ich als praktischer.

Dabei würde ich die gemeinsame Sprache deutsch und nicht die Nationalität als Bedingung sehen.

 

mfG Die Waldfee

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I should add (and possibly clarify above) that it is of course not so much the real nationality, but language skills. Swiss, Austrian, German, anyone who can speak decent German and understand it.

 

And once a system is in place, anyone else, really.

 

Oktoberfest? Probably.

 

A street? Not flexible or too small in scale in my book.

Possibly quickly exhausted.

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[...]

Germans form the core part of EVEs industry (yes, there are statistics) so why not in DU too, or something else?

[...]

We are the core part of any industry everywhere :P

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Possible English name so far:

 

Spatial Republic of Germany / Rhineland / [Other name]

(SRG / SRR in short)

 

 

I would personally suggest and prefer a modern or non-monarchic / imperial system as it would allow bigger participation through elections and changing higher leadership positions regularly, but require a higher amount of people to possibly make it feasible.

 

Still looking for those who can generally imagine taking part actively in building this. As the task is not an easy one, those who are willing to invest time in the long-run and those with certain skillsets (writing forth a background and lore, utilizing multimedia such as logos, videos and so on and perhaps those with certain other experiences or skills that might benefit the creation) are preferred or needed to form a stable foundation that will last.

 

Those already part of organizations such as companies can also assist if they intend to interact with the "SRG" later on or want to base their business there, in parts or completely. In turn, I suppose helping early would entail certain political or other positions.

 

I, for example, later on intend to focus on security related matters, but many spots will have to be filled. We are essentially trying to create a state. Not easy, tough, a headache, but likely rewarding in the long run.

 

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I like this idea. While I do not speak any German myself, and so would probably not be involved directly, I think having places where people can go to find others that they can relate to is a great idea. Not to mention that having strong German language support helps open the game up to more people and helps it grow

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This will be somewhat revised or specified in the near future, maybe next days.

 

So far I consider my role to be this, with limited time input as other games might require those in the near or far future, and assuming DU will still take plenty of time to develop. Consider me as someone who lays a possible foundation - the bulk or rest beyond, other people have to carry. One can't do it alone anyway.

 

Let's see if this might start off or not - assuming it does, maybe later on the general community might appreciate it, as it might be another unique community-driven and made aspect in a world full of 'emergent gameplay'. Even if you are not German(-speaking), having different states or groups with heavier different cultural impacts might be something you will like. Think of it like ... a vacation where meeting other types of people or seeing other places can be beneficial. Why not take a trip to Space Germany for private reasons or business, in other words? Or, if other volunteers arise, space France and so on?

 

But for that to happen, someone has to start somewhere and lay the foundation. So far, it remains the same: Still looking for "Kickstarters". Depending on the role you look for, it might be very time-consuming or not, but likely rewarding either way.

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Great idea...


Now, let's see who's gonna come up with an Inglorious Basterds group of only Jewish people, then Cambodians who will form a Totally NOT Camarouge guerilla army and, of course, Japanese who will form a Totally Not Imperial Japan of WW1 (not WW2 guys, even though the Japanese were on a warpath from 1900s to 1945, so technically, the WW2 JApan was WW1 Japan). I can't personally wait for the Imperial Britain isnpired Birtish only army that will attack any smaller faction and of course, the Cartel inspired Latin american groups. Ah, how fun it is to segregate. Why be inclusive when you can be segregated.

I personally can't wait for the Mujahedin inspired Afghani organisation. No no! Not the ones the USA fought in the early 2000s !!! I am talking about the Mujahedin the USA trained in the 1980s to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan !!!

 

 I know at this point you see the problem with your suggestion, but let me continue so I can become contextualised.

Warden. I like you man, but here's the problem.

Your idea sounds a LOT like WW2 Germany. The very thing you just described, is the etymological definition of fascism - a desire to "turn back the clock" to the "good old days". You know, good old days like...  WW1. Ah, who can forget the stories about an aspiring Lance Corporal who was told to shave his moustache so he could wear his gas mask, as the Germany was about to unveil Chemical Warfare for the first time and the Lance Corporal outsmarted his C.O. by making his moustache fit the gas mask by making it look like a toothbrush in shape. 

Ah, good old WW1 days. Cause, you know, when you say "World War 1 Germany inspired group", people will say "Yeah, WW1 Germany were the good germans, I have no problem now, who cares about the Chemical warfare, or the fact, you know, the desire to bring back WW1 germany was what led to Hitler's rise to power, Warden's German only state is awesome. Yey Space Nazis!".

And, let's be honest here, you are neither naive nor foolish, you know that it will end there. People watched Wonder Woman  recently saying "oh, she fought Nazis as well like Captain America?". Do you really think people see a German in Black and Red and think "totally WW1 Germans, those were not Nazis" -- even if to begin with, only 5% of the German army in WW2 were registered members of the Nationalist-Socialist party AKA the Nazis, but who cares about those things when you can blanket statement an entire army as "Nazis", right?

Also, do you think people will see this :ww1imperial-flag.jpg

 

 

and say "totally WW1 Germany, those were the Okay Germans. Wait, didn't they start that war and caused like 20 million confirmed deaths?", then immediately go like "yeah, let's just shoot them and never ask questions, F those germans and their shenanigans".

 

 

 

Having a "German DU Community Organisation" for people of the same language to communicate in-game, sure, it can work. Having a german only organsiation? Sure, many people do that in EVE, for the sake of convenience on comms and operational hours.

But nnne of them I ever seen went like "oh, btw, we are the Space WW1 Germany guys". Those who did, got insta-gimped. Nothing incites cooperation than beating on "WW1 Germany inspired" Germans. It's a sad fact about mob mentality.

The very notion of "World War inspired German-only Organisation", is like putting a target on yours and on every other german's head in Dual Universe. The very notion of "Imperial Germany of WW1", devalidates any and all good intentions you may have beyond that sentence.

Germany has a lot of stigma following it as a country, don't accumulate more reasons for people to insta-grief an entire ethnicity on "they are part of the Space Nazis" principle alone mate.



Cheerios.


P.S. : I hope HuschHusch does something without "WW1 Germany" in the mix.

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With the advice Twerk put in there, i agree. Focus on the purpose and community aspect of the desired org and be more subtle with its inspiration and you'll avoid a few of the problems he brought up.

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Thanks for the concerns so far.

 

Perhaps I should recap to possibly take away some fears; I did intend to overhaul the first post regardless.

 

I wouldn't actually put emphasis on the whole WW1 part, I feel it might have been perceived wrong.

 

The idea is still simple: Some modern-ish German state later on in DU in some area. The initial references were simply referring to government form, not any actual historical events - Germany simply looked different in government form around WW1 (I used WW1 just as a simple time reference, while I meant how Germany was roughly organized back then, my bad) compared to how it looks today.

 

It was simply used as possible alternative to the initially mentioned modern day Germany, which is a federal (parliamentary) republic. There is no intention of reviving any "good old days", but simply taking some government form and then applying it roughly for the organization in the setting of DU. The rest would be up to players (in this "org" and beyond) from that point on, though (emergent gameplay).

 

If others automatically assume "space nazi" and so on simply through the existence of some formal German(-speaking) centered state in DU, it's solely up to them, just like people today still think or call Germans Nazis by default. Can't really change that, do not intend to as generalizations on that level exist in many forms.

 

I personally see little problems so far if things are kept reasonable on this side (no obvious references or changes in mentality that might warrant said assumptions).

 

What anyone else thinks of it, is of course beyond my initial control. All I saw is that those unique aspects (with some cultural influences) worked out in the specific MC community, which had some similar 'state' - but it was rather Prussian influenced or modelled after such themes.

 

Perhaps that was already somewhat helpful in clearing any potential concerns. If you have more, throw them my way (or, better yet, in here). Best way to solve concerns or problems is to talk about it.

 

 

 

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English (Translator used)

 

Hello CaptainTowermotor,
I love the future and games in which you can try new ideas.
Unfortunately, the past does not change, but one can learn from the mistakes of the past. Symbols and phrases that reflect these errors should not be used, because then the repetition of the errors is also counted.

Warden would like to make a big German nation is his rolling game, but I give you right, he should not repeat the old mistakes (and symbols).
For whoever has great power also has a great responsibility.

I do not want all the German speaking players here to be seen as NAZI, and I assume that Warden would not like that.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

Hallo CaptainTwerkmotor,
ich liebe die Zukunft und Spiele in der man neue Ideen ausprobieren kann.
Die Vergangenheit läst sich leider nicht ändern, aber man kann aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit lernen. Symbole und Phrasen die diese Fehler wiederspiegeln sollten nicht benutzt werden, denn dann wird auch mit der Wiederholung der Fehler gerechnet.

 

Das Warden eine große deutsche Nation machen möchte ist sein Rollenspiel aber ich gebe dir Recht, er sollte die alten Fehler (und Symbole) nicht wiederholen.
Denn wer große Macht besitzt, hat auch eine große Verantwortung.

 

Ich möchte nicht das alle deutschsprechenden Spieler hier als NAZI gesehen werden, und ich gehe davon aus, dass auch Warden das nicht möchte.

 

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

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Twerk is spot on, albeit verbose.

 

That said:

 

What if (a) Germany had continued in DU alt history to be really super green/environment focused. How would they act in a virgin world suddenly beset by resource hungary colonists... 

 

What if (b) Germany had returned to an Hanseatic League state and so represented the ultra-modern trading company conglomerate which represented dynastic family companies... 

 

Assume they did, as a culture, learn from the past. These two possibilities are likely assuming they continued upon a path of "going with what has worked". 

 

Alternative path 3 - Germany effectively re-establishes the old borders of the Holy Roman Empire under an EU banner - also quite possible given the leading role they currently have in Europe, and would allow for the old Elector system as an interesting option.

 

Or a mix of those perhaps.

 

There are always options ?

 

----------------

 

Entschuldigung für mein Deutsch.

 

Twerk ist  korrekt, wenn auch verbose.  

Das gesagt:

 

Was wäre, wenn (a) Deutschland in DU alt Geschichte fortgesetzt wurde, um wirklich super grün / umweltorientiert zu sein. Wie würden sie in einer jungfräulichen Welt handeln, die plötzlich von Ressourcenkolonisten besetzt ist ...

 

Was wäre, wenn (b) Deutschland in einen Hanse-Staat zurückgekehrt war und so das hochmoderne Handelsunternehmenskonglomerat repräsentierte, das dynastische Familienunternehmen repräsentierte ...

 

Angenommen, sie haben als Kultur aus der Vergangenheit gelernt. Diese beiden Möglichkeiten sind wahrscheinlich vorausgesetzt, dass sie auf einem Weg des "Gehen mit dem, was gearbeitet hat" fortgesetzt wird.

 

Alternativer Weg 3 - Deutschland stellt die alten Grenzen des Heiligen Römischen Reiches unter einem EU-Banner effektiv wieder her - auch durch die führende Rolle, die sie derzeit in Europa haben, und das alte Kurfürtensystem als interessante Option zu ermöglichen.

 

Oder eine Mischung aus denen vielleicht.

 

Es gibt immer Optionen ?

 

 

Edited by Anonymous
Added German ver.

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English (Translator used)

 

Hello Anonymous,
First thank you for the translation (it is understandable).


Yes you are right there are always possibilities,
The intensification of the organizations does create conflicts, not nationality. Anyone who wants to play robbers and killers (at sea and in space, also known as a pirate) can be badly persuaded by diplomatic means (even if there are "diplomats"). But the organizations that are willing to form a new ideal society will find ways to settle these conflicts on the diplomatic path.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

Hallo Anonymous,

ersteinmal vielen Dank für die Übersetzung (sie ist verständlich).

 

Ja Du hast Recht es gibt immer Möglichkeiten,

die Intension der Organisationen erzeugt die Konflikte, nicht die Nationalität. Wer Räuber und Mörder spielen möchte (zur See und im Weltraum, auch Pirat genannt), kann man mit diplomatischen Mitteln schlecht überzeugen, dass zu lassen (auch wenn es dort "Diplomaten" gibt). Aber die Organisationen, die bereit sind eine neue ideale Gesellschaft zu formen, werden Wege finden diese Konflikte auf diplomatischen Weg zu schlichten.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

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Thanks for the input so far.

 

I redid the first post a bit - not much shorter but maybe more structured or clear on some aspects now. A few "expectations" on official positions were also added, making it likely a bit less abstract.

 

If people ask "Why a state", the core advantage I so far see is that a formal approach can possibly provide a few advantages over "just" an organization or an alliance of organizations of sorts, as it might be more open to other players at one point, too, and thus lead to greater interaction. In addition, if taxes would exist, tax money can (literally) pave the way - and result in benefits for citizens. In addition the state thing could possibly mean a more neutral approach to some situations where classic organizations or an alliance of organizations might automatically feel like they are at competition or actually are at some form of odds. This might suggest or imply being more open and you are not automatically "banned" or "out of the picture" if you are already in an organization as German speaking player.

 

If there are any further potential concerns, just throw them in here. Best way to solve some potential assumptions, mistakes or concerns is an open debate, I suppose.

 

Other than that, I do look forward to the first volunteers. Now and for the future, pending DU's success, my time commitment will be somewhat limited due to personal reasons and commitments in another game. Consider me initiator and perhaps in a background role later on. One can't do it alone anyway, so at least a few people are required to fill the notable jobs and to pave the way for further moves.

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Piraterie entsteht überall dort wo die Diplomatie versagt. Es taugt nicht mal als Druckmittel, da aus Freibeutern früher oder später ziellose Piraten werden, die sich auch gegen einen wenden.

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1 hour ago, Rafiki said:

Piraterie entsteht überall dort wo die Diplomatie versagt. Es taugt nicht mal als Druckmittel, da aus Freibeutern früher oder später ziellose Piraten werden, die sich auch gegen einen wenden.

Nah, some ppl just want to kill others because reasons. It's a game after all. 

Has nothing to do with failed diplomacy

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English (Translator used)

 

Such characters are also called murderers.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

solche Charaktere nennt man auch Mörder.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

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27 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Nah, some ppl just want to kill others because reasons. It's a game after all. 

Has nothing to do with failed diplomacy

 

German:

 

Natürlich wird es sowas geben wie Kriminalität oder wie man es auch nennen mag.

Wenn dieses Spiel aber wirklich die politische Vernetzung mit sich bring, die es suggeriert, dann werden sich die Werte schöpfenden Organisationen zusammen tun, um so etwas wie Piraterie zu unterbinden. Piraterie kann man quasi mit organisierter Kriminalität vergleichen. Auch das sind komplizierte und angreifbare Strukturen, die von den schwächen der Werte schöpfenden Organisationen leben. Ohne Diplomatie werden viele Häfen entstehen, die nach dem Prinzip arbeiten, dass Kriminelle Willkommen sind, solange sie nur woanders Kriminell sind. Das ist der Nährboden für Kriminelle Strukturen und ist der Kontrollverlust der zivilen Gesellschaft.

 

 

English tl;tr:

strong universewide diplomacy + strong law and order politics = weak organized crime

 

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Mafia_klein.jpg.ed24c0ed20a4ae7b1905a4d88da19fc4.jpg

English (Translator used)

 

Such structures are also called mafia.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

solche Strukturen nennt man auch Mafia.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

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