Novean-32184

A good few of the backers did ask the tough questions about this back in April 2020 when JC dropped the bomb that NQ was ending closed development at what we all knew was still very much a game in alpha and just stuck a "beta" label on it. 
 
Two years later, the game is still effectively in alpha and NQ is about to call it a release.
 
 

This is a MMO, there is no "endgame" in a MMO. DU is not about conflict, combat and "cause to fight for" are not goals to achieve. A reason to fight should grow into the world organically, as players settle and move around.
 
You are basically setting up/describing a thempark style game where you start at X and are expected to end up doing Y to achieve Z

We're here well into page 5 of fthe discussion, with so much being said, suggested, asked and wondered..
 
Guess what/who is entirely missing ..  Will any of it stick/land/be taken on board/reconsidered/adjusted? No one knows and all we have is past experience which tells us probably not.

The problem I see here is that NQ seems to not want to let go of ideas and move on from them when they see the signs of the idea not working or going to take way too much time/resources/effort. The result is a half done idea, with a lot of fallout in the surrounding mechanics. And we see that happen in DU a lot.
 
NQ does not iterate fast enough and they never have..  "Fail often, fail fast" is a truth that you really can't do without..  
 
And this is why the game effectively is still really in early Alpha.
 
 
Is the potential enough for DU to become a good game? I do believe that is areal possibility, but I also think that NQ lacks the ability to make that happpen because they are to attached to their "ideas" and by now have wasted enourmous amounts of resources trying to make them work anyway. And I believe ther stil lis no central project manager, which is simply going to be a blocker for a comnplex project like DU to become a reality. 

Backers and subscribers alike have paid NQ for a service and that service includes devs who maintain and expand the game.
Please stop being silly, you sound like a fanboi with his message on repeat (which you are entiitled to be if that is thecase).. 
 
 
People are frustrated, they are annoyed and unhappy. NQ's actions and choices are not exactly doing (or saying) much to alleviate that.
Just like you have the rightg to be the everlasting optimist, ignoring all things not fitting that narrative, so do others havethe right to recognize the issue and bring them front and center in a thread started as a "letter to the devs". Both letters  are valid as both are based on opinion, emotion, passion (yes, I do say passion here) and desire for the game to get good.

Backers and subscribers alike have paid NQ for a service and that service includes devs who maintain and expand the game.
Please stop being silly, you sound like a fanboi with his message on repeat (which you are entiitled to be if that is thecase).. 
 
 
People are frustrated, they are annoyed and unhappy. NQ's actions and choices are not exactly doing (or saying) much to alleviate that.
Just like you have the rightg to be the everlasting optimist, ignoring all things not fitting that narrative, so do others havethe right to recognize the issue and bring them front and center in a thread started as a "letter to the devs". Both letters  are valid as both are based on opinion, emotion, passion (yes, I do say passion here) and desire for the game to get good.

You are preaching to the choir @Knight-Sevy
 
Unfortunately, some of us who saw what was happening early on, got slammed and lambasted not just by NQ but by a good portion of the alpha tester community. "We told you so" certainly applies here, which is why I feel I can say I still believe that DU has the potential to be great in many ways, but it can't be for everyone (which is what NQ keeps trying to achieve) and it needs a very steady hand in development and F-U-N-D-I-N-G .. Neither of which NQ seems to be able to provide.
 
There is a good few in this community who know their stuff, it's obvious from what they say, how they say it and when. There is a number of members of the community who kick kicked for being persistent because they know they are right and want to see this game happen and be great. They get sent to the bench or worse and are not allowed back unless they promise to be good (as in, behave like NQ wants them to). And so more and more of the ones that could actually HELP NQ, if they'd only be willing to listen and engage have either left or not bothered to try again.
 
DU is a game which DOES have the potential. I'd even say it's really not THAT far-off but needs a good nudge in some areas. problem is NQ seems to not know how or chooses to not want to do that and I have no idea why. And NQ does not want to ask for help, reach out to the community and actually come up with workable solutions, examples of which are plentiful around the forums..
 

I'd say many still share the initial vision. And many also unerstand that a vision is just that and from there one needs to adjust and shape the vision to what is achievable.
 
 
NQ (in the form of JC) kept dreaming that their utopia was going to become reality. until reality came knocking at which time it was too late and NQ has been firefighting ans scrambling to just get to a release of some kind.

Unfortunately NQ has never really engaged what is probably their most valuable ally and asset in developing DU, their community. They just kept dreaming up overcomplicated ideas to "fix" other overcomplicated or over reaching ideas. This community has stood up and offered valueble suggestions/iodeas/feedback throughout he years but most has been ignored and much forgotten as the players who provided it have long since moved on.
 
 
So what happened you ask? NQ happened is what..
DU still has the potential it had back then and could still work out. But NQ is not the company to do it I believe. they lack the vision and (financial) resources to really make that push and make it fast enough.

No. Making items magically transport across the planet removes part of the hauling gameplay as well as the buy-transport-sell game some enjoy. Lets not remove the few things that are fun in the game.

So, after giving this some thought and considering how NQ is clearly copying EVE once again, yet fails to grasp the basic concept of how the EVE system works, this is how the rework SHOULD (as I see it) work:
 
As NQ seems to not have any intention of letting players control the game and will continue to be the game master and provider of all things, let's go with that.
 
Basic setup:
Aphelia sells original blueprints. These are unlimited runs with basic efficiency and material requirements Industry elements lose their time and material buffs through talents  
From there several "career" opportunities exist:
 
Researcher
A new element is introduced to allow players to research both time and material buffs, these buffs come in 10 levels which will take an increasing amount of time to research per level and each level adds a same percentage to time reduction as well as material input and output stats
 
A high multiplier talent will allow to train reductions in time needed to research each level
 
This research element also allows players to make copies of their researched schematics, they can sell these or sell the researched original blueprints but only through barter/contract.
 
Industrialist
Will generally use researched originals or high run count copies, bought from researchers
 
DIY enthusiasts
Will generally either use unresearched originals bought from Aphelia or low run count copies bought from researchers
 
Schematic Bank
Schematics could be centralised. have a "schematic bank" which is linked to the construct core and in that way allow any relevant industry to access these schematics through Lua. If that would be possible, you can leave it to the game's coder base to quickly come up with some fancy industry management scripts while for the non-Lua types, you can just select any recipe from a schematic in the bank on the relevant Industry unit.
 
That way, you could even consider keeping the requirement for each item to be made to have a schematic as you'd only ever need one of them in the schematics bank for the construct.
 
 
There.. fixed the schematic system for you within the constraints of what DU allows.
 
@NQ-Entropy @NQ-Kyrios 

The problem with the now coming is that it tries to showhorn an EVE style BPO/BPC system into a factorio style industry system.
 
The blueprint system work sin EVE because there is no differentiation between compenents as to where they are built. It also works because in EVE people playing theIndustry game will generally focus on making X by buying what is needed to make X an ssell it back to market, And X can be anything between a ship and a subcomponent used to make modules.
 
Research blueprints in order to optimize them and maximize their yield and cerate copies of these optimized blueprints with Y runs is a separate loop entirely.
 
 
DU however is designed for players to always work towards an endproduct by producing everything needed for that in a chain. And simply copying the base system EVE uses is not going to work for that.
 
I also found the post on this to be very misleading. I do not see where at any time, NQ listened to feedback or came to their current new implementation based on feedback. The seeming emphasis on reduction of schematic cost mere days after intrroducing them, due to the fact players abandonned the game in droves, was a knee jerk reaction to stop the bleeding, not "listening to feedback". It was self preservation which effectively took away most of the purpose and effect schematics were to have.
 
And it sound like this is yet another "play in the UI" change, moving more action away from the actual world and just use an interface without the need to travel and get the schematics you need. Another boring greenish UI box .. yay /s
 
 
But as I expect that the 4 hour maintenance coming tomrowwow will drop the new system on the game and throw it into turmoil and chaos once again, mere weeks before a planned release, will only backfire in a big way. INdustry is becomeing a chore even more than it allready was, it becomes tedious and a job. And with it a good few sho are still around will decide it's not worth their time and move on.. again.. 
 
 
Yes, a game like DU needs quanta sinks and faucets. But this is not what should be a sink, this is what shoudl be part of the buy and sell economy and as it seems to be designed now, it wil not be.

So, after giving this some thought and considering how NQ is clearly copying EVE once again, yet fails to grasp the basic concept of how the EVE system works, this is how the rework SHOULD (as I see it) work:
 
As NQ seems to not have any intention of letting players control the game and will continue to be the game master and provider of all things, let's go with that.
 
Basic setup:
Aphelia sells original blueprints. These are unlimited runs with basic efficiency and material requirements Industry elements lose their time and material buffs through talents  
From there several "career" opportunities exist:
 
Researcher
A new element is introduced to allow players to research both time and material buffs, these buffs come in 10 levels which will take an increasing amount of time to research per level and each level adds a same percentage to time reduction as well as material input and output stats
 
A high multiplier talent will allow to train reductions in time needed to research each level
 
This research element also allows players to make copies of their researched schematics, they can sell these or sell the researched original blueprints but only through barter/contract.
 
Industrialist
Will generally use researched originals or high run count copies, bought from researchers
 
DIY enthusiasts
Will generally either use unresearched originals bought from Aphelia or low run count copies bought from researchers
 
Schematic Bank
Schematics could be centralised. have a "schematic bank" which is linked to the construct core and in that way allow any relevant industry to access these schematics through Lua. If that would be possible, you can leave it to the game's coder base to quickly come up with some fancy industry management scripts while for the non-Lua types, you can just select any recipe from a schematic in the bank on the relevant Industry unit.
 
That way, you could even consider keeping the requirement for each item to be made to have a schematic as you'd only ever need one of them in the schematics bank for the construct.
 
 
There.. fixed the schematic system for you within the constraints of what DU allows.
 
@NQ-Entropy @NQ-Kyrios 

The problem with the now coming is that it tries to showhorn an EVE style BPO/BPC system into a factorio style industry system.
 
The blueprint system work sin EVE because there is no differentiation between compenents as to where they are built. It also works because in EVE people playing theIndustry game will generally focus on making X by buying what is needed to make X an ssell it back to market, And X can be anything between a ship and a subcomponent used to make modules.
 
Research blueprints in order to optimize them and maximize their yield and cerate copies of these optimized blueprints with Y runs is a separate loop entirely.
 
 
DU however is designed for players to always work towards an endproduct by producing everything needed for that in a chain. And simply copying the base system EVE uses is not going to work for that.
 
I also found the post on this to be very misleading. I do not see where at any time, NQ listened to feedback or came to their current new implementation based on feedback. The seeming emphasis on reduction of schematic cost mere days after intrroducing them, due to the fact players abandonned the game in droves, was a knee jerk reaction to stop the bleeding, not "listening to feedback". It was self preservation which effectively took away most of the purpose and effect schematics were to have.
 
And it sound like this is yet another "play in the UI" change, moving more action away from the actual world and just use an interface without the need to travel and get the schematics you need. Another boring greenish UI box .. yay /s
 
 
But as I expect that the 4 hour maintenance coming tomrowwow will drop the new system on the game and throw it into turmoil and chaos once again, mere weeks before a planned release, will only backfire in a big way. INdustry is becomeing a chore even more than it allready was, it becomes tedious and a job. And with it a good few sho are still around will decide it's not worth their time and move on.. again.. 
 
 
Yes, a game like DU needs quanta sinks and faucets. But this is not what should be a sink, this is what shoudl be part of the buy and sell economy and as it seems to be designed now, it wil not be.

Or.. how about not having a CHAIR weigh THREE TONNES

So after haven taken some time to look at these and how they affect non PVP focussed players, here's how.
 
You are now a target from the moment you take off, regardless of whether you are in the safe zone or not.
 
The speed and mass changes wil:
Make you accelerate much slower Severely limit your max speed in space  
This now allows PVP players to track and follow you in the safe zone and/or as you approach PVP space in small light ships, making it fairly easy to grab and stasis you as you leave the safe zxone from where the big guns can move in with enough speed advantage to get the easy kill with no way for you to get away from it.
 
These changes effectively remove the option to take the long way around to avoid pipes and with it the only thing which is somewhat of a counter to PVP you have.  I guess this is in part why mission running is now all but dead in game.. There is just way too big a risk of getting caught to justify the meager rewards.

Would be interesting to hear what @NQ-Entropy has to say about this and how he can explain this.

I'm personally not a fan of this.  Industry may be annoying or time consuming or tedious in some aspects but the most important thing that industry and factories and building elements brings is purpose.  Goals to achieve as one expands and grows as a player.  For those of us that have big factories, a lot of us do because it provides literally years of gameplay.  I've been playing for 1.5 years now and every element I add to my factory is a personal accomplishment.  It's the culmination of selling blueprints that I've created, or mining or salvaging or missioning.  It's the year and a half of building something that's very intricate and delicate and complex and yes, tedious. 
 
I'm also concerned about the push towards Coop or more than likely requiring alts making industry pay to play. 
 
I'm concerned about how this will limit the market capabilities for the parts.  While DU is in beta, I wouldn't expect there to be parts only manufacturing, but it's not unreasonable to expect there to be a market for these items with a larger player base.
 
I'm mostly concerned about the elimination of Goals to achieve in DU.

The nerfs have pretty much killed the entire warp shuttle concept. By giving in to the crying and complaining of the PVP crowd NQ have effectively destroyed a good portion of entirely non related gameplay.

Use Markee's site to buy game time
https://store.markeedragon.com/index.php?cat=360

Or.. how about not having a CHAIR weigh THREE TONNES

Or.. how about not having a CHAIR weigh THREE TONNES

Or.. how about not having a CHAIR weigh THREE TONNES

Or.. how about not having a CHAIR weigh THREE TONNES

The problem is that the changes NQ made pretty much destroyeed any chance of shuttle slike the skipper ever being viable again. These ship types are sacrificed by NQ in order to appease the PVP crowd..
 
I recycled my lightskipper because it became a useless ship after the changes. Not anything @TobiwanKenobi can be blamed for obviously, but it just sat on the pad without a purpose or function.

While I see what you are saying, it effectively means what NQ did was "fix" what PVP players found to be lacking. The problem I have, and I have seen others say the same, is that NQ tends to "fix" things by carpet bombing and hoping that will address an issue but ignoring the considerable collateral damage they create in doing so.
 
Throwing principal laws of physics out the door to give PVP players a way to "catch up" is not a solution, it is snake oil as you do not fix anything, you just bend the rules. NQ did not balance anything here, they moved the goalpost to allow the ball to pass. Balance would have been to tweak the performance of engines in a way which allows smaller ships to accelerate faster relative to their mass and with that catch up to larger ships before those can reach the same top speed. Or create a way for ships to jump ahead using warp at the cost of cooldown and maybe accuracy of fire, so they can have a chance of catching a (bigger) prey. 
 
That would then also require skill and experience while potentially be aided by talents to reduce the penalties of using a manoeuvre like that to offer a specialized "interceptor" role to players and further deepening the strategy aspects of combat.
 
This would effectively bring the same change to combat while it in no way affects anything outside that context. And for me, this is why I feel NQ is continuously missing the point and is not taking their time to think things through, it all feels like "ok this works, done.." and no-one is going "but wait a moment" .. Well, the community is but we all know that NQ really does not do very well in paying attention in that respect.
 

While I see what you are saying, it effectively means what NQ did was "fix" what PVP players found to be lacking. The problem I have, and I have seen others say the same, is that NQ tends to "fix" things by carpet bombing and hoping that will address an issue but ignoring the considerable collateral damage they create in doing so.
 
Throwing principal laws of physics out the door to give PVP players a way to "catch up" is not a solution, it is snake oil as you do not fix anything, you just bend the rules. NQ did not balance anything here, they moved the goalpost to allow the ball to pass. Balance would have been to tweak the performance of engines in a way which allows smaller ships to accelerate faster relative to their mass and with that catch up to larger ships before those can reach the same top speed. Or create a way for ships to jump ahead using warp at the cost of cooldown and maybe accuracy of fire, so they can have a chance of catching a (bigger) prey. 
 
That would then also require skill and experience while potentially be aided by talents to reduce the penalties of using a manoeuvre like that to offer a specialized "interceptor" role to players and further deepening the strategy aspects of combat.
 
This would effectively bring the same change to combat while it in no way affects anything outside that context. And for me, this is why I feel NQ is continuously missing the point and is not taking their time to think things through, it all feels like "ok this works, done.." and no-one is going "but wait a moment" .. Well, the community is but we all know that NQ really does not do very well in paying attention in that respect.