Vasten

After the 3 dev blog dump the only thing of import I read there was 
 
"We want you to stop mining planets so we plan to add new mechanics so you dont have to dig"
 
And
 
"Our databases are imploding like black holes under their own weight.. we seriously underestimated database load... the sub fees cant cover the costs.. but dont worry we plan to find a solution"
 
It was nice to see a vague and indirect admission that the tech is fundamentally flawed, even if they did basically say "omg.. why are you guys digging so much, our servers cant handle it... we had no idea about this thing where players will grind for hours.. it was impossible to anticipate that players will grind so much"
 
The part where they talked about it as some kind of profound learning experience and I was out..
 
Seems like NQ is always saying that kind of stuff...
 
"Omg.. what is this 'grinding' ?didnt expect that"
"Omg Death cubes.. what is this 'meta' thing? Didnt expect that"
"Omg.. most players are solo playing... why would they do that?"
"Omg.. most players want to just have fun instead of being part of complicated organized societies.. why?"
Etc...
 
Yeah... real groundbreaking profound realizations there.
 
So I just played some solo games..
 
any new signs of hope?
 
I dont see anything except some improving docking stuff.. cause yeah.. that should be priority lol
 
Meanwhile sb has solid roadmaps and is clearly growing into a good replacement for 99% of playerbase... sure they have a more limited building and coding system.. but if anything that give me faith they are seriously aware of where bottlenecks and overload will popup.. plus actually structural integrity and good ship and ava pvp...
 
Looks like I should just wait the 1 more month till sb ea.. am I wrong?

After the 3 dev blog dump the only thing of import I read there was 
 
"We want you to stop mining planets so we plan to add new mechanics so you dont have to dig"
 
And
 
"Our databases are imploding like black holes under their own weight.. we seriously underestimated database load... the sub fees cant cover the costs.. but dont worry we plan to find a solution"
 
It was nice to see a vague and indirect admission that the tech is fundamentally flawed, even if they did basically say "omg.. why are you guys digging so much, our servers cant handle it... we had no idea about this thing where players will grind for hours.. it was impossible to anticipate that players will grind so much"
 
The part where they talked about it as some kind of profound learning experience and I was out..
 
Seems like NQ is always saying that kind of stuff...
 
"Omg.. what is this 'grinding' ?didnt expect that"
"Omg Death cubes.. what is this 'meta' thing? Didnt expect that"
"Omg.. most players are solo playing... why would they do that?"
"Omg.. most players want to just have fun instead of being part of complicated organized societies.. why?"
Etc...
 
Yeah... real groundbreaking profound realizations there.
 
So I just played some solo games..
 
any new signs of hope?
 
I dont see anything except some improving docking stuff.. cause yeah.. that should be priority lol
 
Meanwhile sb has solid roadmaps and is clearly growing into a good replacement for 99% of playerbase... sure they have a more limited building and coding system.. but if anything that give me faith they are seriously aware of where bottlenecks and overload will popup.. plus actually structural integrity and good ship and ava pvp...
 
Looks like I should just wait the 1 more month till sb ea.. am I wrong?

After the 3 dev blog dump the only thing of import I read there was 
 
"We want you to stop mining planets so we plan to add new mechanics so you dont have to dig"
 
And
 
"Our databases are imploding like black holes under their own weight.. we seriously underestimated database load... the sub fees cant cover the costs.. but dont worry we plan to find a solution"
 
It was nice to see a vague and indirect admission that the tech is fundamentally flawed, even if they did basically say "omg.. why are you guys digging so much, our servers cant handle it... we had no idea about this thing where players will grind for hours.. it was impossible to anticipate that players will grind so much"
 
The part where they talked about it as some kind of profound learning experience and I was out..
 
Seems like NQ is always saying that kind of stuff...
 
"Omg.. what is this 'grinding' ?didnt expect that"
"Omg Death cubes.. what is this 'meta' thing? Didnt expect that"
"Omg.. most players are solo playing... why would they do that?"
"Omg.. most players want to just have fun instead of being part of complicated organized societies.. why?"
Etc...
 
Yeah... real groundbreaking profound realizations there.
 
So I just played some solo games..
 
any new signs of hope?
 
I dont see anything except some improving docking stuff.. cause yeah.. that should be priority lol
 
Meanwhile sb has solid roadmaps and is clearly growing into a good replacement for 99% of playerbase... sure they have a more limited building and coding system.. but if anything that give me faith they are seriously aware of where bottlenecks and overload will popup.. plus actually structural integrity and good ship and ava pvp...
 
Looks like I should just wait the 1 more month till sb ea.. am I wrong?

After the 3 dev blog dump the only thing of import I read there was 
 
"We want you to stop mining planets so we plan to add new mechanics so you dont have to dig"
 
And
 
"Our databases are imploding like black holes under their own weight.. we seriously underestimated database load... the sub fees cant cover the costs.. but dont worry we plan to find a solution"
 
It was nice to see a vague and indirect admission that the tech is fundamentally flawed, even if they did basically say "omg.. why are you guys digging so much, our servers cant handle it... we had no idea about this thing where players will grind for hours.. it was impossible to anticipate that players will grind so much"
 
The part where they talked about it as some kind of profound learning experience and I was out..
 
Seems like NQ is always saying that kind of stuff...
 
"Omg.. what is this 'grinding' ?didnt expect that"
"Omg Death cubes.. what is this 'meta' thing? Didnt expect that"
"Omg.. most players are solo playing... why would they do that?"
"Omg.. most players want to just have fun instead of being part of complicated organized societies.. why?"
Etc...
 
Yeah... real groundbreaking profound realizations there.
 
So I just played some solo games..
 
any new signs of hope?
 
I dont see anything except some improving docking stuff.. cause yeah.. that should be priority lol
 
Meanwhile sb has solid roadmaps and is clearly growing into a good replacement for 99% of playerbase... sure they have a more limited building and coding system.. but if anything that give me faith they are seriously aware of where bottlenecks and overload will popup.. plus actually structural integrity and good ship and ava pvp...
 
Looks like I should just wait the 1 more month till sb ea.. am I wrong?

To be fair, the du website, promotional videos and materials paint a picture of a game which it not only fails to deliver but in all honesty is likely not possible to ever deliver.
 
The scenes of mass close quarters combat and crowded areas running lag free are complete misrepresentation and you cant blame someone for feeling scammed.
 
Saying "you should have done your due diligence" doesnt make the email from that guy claiming to be a Nigerian prince not a scam.
 
Du is still luring in subs based on complete misrepresentation of what the reality of du is.
 
I would say this level of misrepresentation goes beyond "positive spin pr" or "avoiding showcasing product weaknesses".. 
 
The only thing they can cling to is the "fine print" of "we said its beta and still under construction" under the premise that they intend to deliver the game as advertised eventually, and if they fail to do so they can use a bunch of excuses they will claim were unforeseeable to dismiss claims they were intentionally misleading 
 
There are laws in many places that do actually combat the "fine print" loopholes.. where a more common sense approach is used to determine if the seller misrepresented the deliverable
 
If you look at what they present and what they deliver, I dont think it's a stretch to classify this as a scam

Yeah.. charge for time usage then see how much worse people scream about lag haha

To be fair, the du website, promotional videos and materials paint a picture of a game which it not only fails to deliver but in all honesty is likely not possible to ever deliver.
 
The scenes of mass close quarters combat and crowded areas running lag free are complete misrepresentation and you cant blame someone for feeling scammed.
 
Saying "you should have done your due diligence" doesnt make the email from that guy claiming to be a Nigerian prince not a scam.
 
Du is still luring in subs based on complete misrepresentation of what the reality of du is.
 
I would say this level of misrepresentation goes beyond "positive spin pr" or "avoiding showcasing product weaknesses".. 
 
The only thing they can cling to is the "fine print" of "we said its beta and still under construction" under the premise that they intend to deliver the game as advertised eventually, and if they fail to do so they can use a bunch of excuses they will claim were unforeseeable to dismiss claims they were intentionally misleading 
 
There are laws in many places that do actually combat the "fine print" loopholes.. where a more common sense approach is used to determine if the seller misrepresented the deliverable
 
If you look at what they present and what they deliver, I dont think it's a stretch to classify this as a scam

To be fair, the du website, promotional videos and materials paint a picture of a game which it not only fails to deliver but in all honesty is likely not possible to ever deliver.
 
The scenes of mass close quarters combat and crowded areas running lag free are complete misrepresentation and you cant blame someone for feeling scammed.
 
Saying "you should have done your due diligence" doesnt make the email from that guy claiming to be a Nigerian prince not a scam.
 
Du is still luring in subs based on complete misrepresentation of what the reality of du is.
 
I would say this level of misrepresentation goes beyond "positive spin pr" or "avoiding showcasing product weaknesses".. 
 
The only thing they can cling to is the "fine print" of "we said its beta and still under construction" under the premise that they intend to deliver the game as advertised eventually, and if they fail to do so they can use a bunch of excuses they will claim were unforeseeable to dismiss claims they were intentionally misleading 
 
There are laws in many places that do actually combat the "fine print" loopholes.. where a more common sense approach is used to determine if the seller misrepresented the deliverable
 
If you look at what they present and what they deliver, I dont think it's a stretch to classify this as a scam

Yeah, cause ability to have cool lua screen animations is what should be priority right? That's what everyone wants/needs most. 
 
I guess if they break the previous standard it does mean a lot of old screens stop working so in a way it might help a bit when tones of those screens at market now do nothing... assuming the broken code just stops loading and rendering.
 
if your priority is lua screen lag, how abou a toggle for "only load my lua and NQ lua", and/or "my, my org, and NQ lua"
 
All these lua features and screens are SUPER NEAT guys... but you know what would actually help save the game..... fix the GAME aspect
 
The whole premise of having such advanced and intricate in game programming that auto loads for all players, and is executed client side on every users box just fundamentally has performance issues... 
 
You know why web pages work? Cause I only load the sites I want, one at a time.. if I open to many tabs my computer will lag and eventually implode. 
 
The same principle applies to contructs and voxels.
 
You cant just keep trying to distract everyone from the fundamental issues..
 
-Lag
 
-No game mechanics, less fun than my day job
 
-Broken economy
 
-Killed the free building experience and didnt even get the civ building you wanted
 
-Your skills tree doesnt create orgs and civs if people can just create an army of alt slaves... a supply chain of many player have to split the profit between each specialized player, but one guy with alts can just undercut them in market so much they make almost nothing per player when they split their profits 
 
-Legacy of bugs/exploits built into a massive wealth inequality
 
 
If your goal is to solve lua screen lag.. just let me toggle off other people's lua
 
But clearly it wasnt lag.. it was "hey. Let's improve the rendering quality of the screen so people can create even cooler animations that no one else will ever see because we refuse to address our core issues"
 
Seriously... are they just playing this game in house connected directly to server with high end computers and 0 local latency thinking "what will make my local network play experience better?

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

Farewell DU I barely knew you
 
I love this game, i will be so happy if it survives
 
But venture capital is part of the angel investor, VC, PE chain.... they are all focused on exit strategy... to hope they will try to build and a run a company is a fools dream. Vc is all about the exit
 
The VC taking control is near certain death.. it means they no longer will sit in background, the only thing a VC knows how to do is prepare for and execute their exit strategy
 
I guess all we can hope for now is an M&A exit, and the slim chance the game is picked up by someone who will finish it off.. but I'm not holding my breath..
 
I guess it's time for starbase.. funny that the VC takes over right as starbase early access is about to come out.. maybe their industry consultants are telling them starbase will eat up much of the tiny market du has left.
 
Regardless.. I prefer du.. but starbase looks like it actually has a GAME.. fps shooting, cutting into hull and killing pilot, pvp, etc... so even if I as a highly technical player would prefer the du model, I think it may appeal to a much broader player base and have a much larger market
 
Oh DU... I hardly knew you
 
 

Actually it is pretty much all on them
 
Every mmo has this problem
 
A large base of casual players for fun
And small base a Meta optimization focused players
 
If they didnt plan for this it is on them.
 
They cant create a game with a meta strategy that creates this and say "oh my, I didnt realize there would be gamers to take to the meta strategy to such extreme lengths"
 
I now understand why 0.23 killed the player base
 
Because schemas made everyone dependent on the tychoons.. it's either buy from tychoons or spend all your time and money buying schemas.
 
Yes.. they created a good replica of modern day capitalism.. schemas are akin to patents and copyrights...
 
But this is not what they say they are trying to create.. they say they want civs composed of specialized players...
 
All they need to do is remove the passive play element.. make industry machines break down and require maintenance and care so that there is a reasonable limit on how much a single person can handle. (No char limit on max units.. make the input actually active play.. human time maintaining the factory machines)
 
Problem solved so easily...

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

The mega factory meta is what prevents the dream of a specialized economy and cooperative civilization building 
 
To break it the scalability of factory industry needs to be nerfed.. scripting is fun but it just further amplifies industry scalability to riddiculous meta levels
 
Limit based on char (like max active units per char) would be circumvented by alts.
 
Human time is the only thing that will work
 
Make industry units break down and require repair, maintenance and care.. require human grinding play time to keep the factory units operating 
 
Mining,logistics and trade are all grindy and hard to scale
 
Why is industry allowed to scale to such riddiculous levels that it create tychoons and monopolies that have largely passive income.. it actually kills the cooperative specialization that is supposedly the goal of this game.
 
As long as the single human mega factory meta exists it is the only thing worth doing.. it needs to not just be nerfed.. but killed.. otherwise there will never civ building and specialization 

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

Like you say.. items
 
There is only market for finished products and those need multiple industry's to make..
 
There is no market for intermediary part, alloys, etc
 
Everyone has mega factories the take in ore and output final product
 
There is no room for a screw producer.. or a pipe, or frame makers.. no one can be an alloy maker

So we have factories with magic equiment that never breaks down, never needs repair, zero maintenance.. programmable production so we can create "magic black box factories" where you just say "computer make 5 of this and 20 of that" and it does it...
 
Ok that's cool
 
But we have stone age trade.. mo way to offer up goods across the world. You have to haul goods to market and hope someone buys like a peasant farmer in medieval times.
 
I cant chat with potential buyers.. cant inquire about bulk discount... I cant contact sellers and buyers at all
 
What the hell?
 
Of course the economy is completely screwed up.. supply chains are going to be pushed to zero.. or course
 
Of course you end up with a few tychoons who make everything
 
And everyone else is a peasant farmer feeding them ore
 
 
Either buff trade with ibsta system wide teleport shipping 
 
Or nerf manufacturing
Machine needing maintenance and care would do the trick

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

The opportunity cost for using the market is way too high
 
The time required to go to market due to lag means the markets have a massive economic opportunity cost
 
Selling at markets requires hauling good directly to location of intended offer without knowing if/when it will sell
 
This is already on top of the fact that We already have to travel long distances to get to market buying fuel and time, risking a crash due to lag
 
 
There is only one problem that needs to be dealt with.... loading lag
 
Until then the "use the market" mantra is meaningless when you factor in the time opportunity cost, fuel cost, and risk factor
 
The markets are useless in their current state
 
Cant you just put market terminal outside](loading the elevator can take a long time])
 
And force market terminals to load first priority before all other contructs?
 
Please start Factoring in time opportunity cost.. we as always do.. you cant ignore it, it's the most important factor

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
 
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
 
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
 
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
 
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
 
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
 
So I'm left thinking.. 

I FINALLY GET IT!!
 
I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
 
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun