Revelcro

Currently there are just two ways to make money in DU:
 
1. by getting the daily 150 kℎ
2. by mining and selling ore to bots
 
All other ways to 'make money' just mean that other players make money for you. If they stop doing it, because they are bored to death, you will need to do it yourself. Than you have even less time to do everything you want to do because you are mining all day long.

Right now we have massive amounts of resources tied up in our major mining operations and factories.  A truly mind boggling amount of quanta is tied up in all of it.  The idea of even tempting to risk some of it to pvp is laughable.  You are insane if you think we would risk a 300-500 million quanta operation on an outskirt planet to pvp if there was any serious chance of losing that much investment to a handful of bored lane campers and their cheap gank ship.  It's just not going to happen.  We probably would never trust a pvp org to guard us since they are notorious for turning on their benefactors for the lulz alone (and i'm sure guard duty would be even more boring than gank duty).  Most would rather quit playing than lose a fleet of haulers and prospectors every time they go out. Take away safe warping and at best you would drive us to using cheap throw away mining ships that are bringing back a mere 5KT of ore at a time on some slow boat lane, and thats going to get boring real fast for all parties
 
Right now the cost of moving ore in significant quantities is just too expensive ship wise.  Too much to invest to ever risk losing.  Thats not even speaking about the dozens of hours spent mining out all the ore over several days.  All down the drain.   Make building our mega haulers a bit easier and cheaper to replace and we might consider riskier tactics in getting it home.  But if you make it common to lose all of that on a regular basis without some way of getting our ships up and running without a massive investment, then the pvp orgs will have to take turns being the miner in the barrel  because the major mining orgs will just go find something else to do with their time.  Nobody is going to put up with that.
 
 

You are welcome. Cat-3 is abundant at any factory. If it's nerfed there are always other "creative" ways if people start doing crap. 

Right now we have massive amounts of resources tied up in our major mining operations and factories.  A truly mind boggling amount of quanta is tied up in all of it.  The idea of even tempting to risk some of it to pvp is laughable.  You are insane if you think we would risk a 300-500 million quanta operation on an outskirt planet to pvp if there was any serious chance of losing that much investment to a handful of bored lane campers and their cheap gank ship.  It's just not going to happen.  We probably would never trust a pvp org to guard us since they are notorious for turning on their benefactors for the lulz alone (and i'm sure guard duty would be even more boring than gank duty).  Most would rather quit playing than lose a fleet of haulers and prospectors every time they go out. Take away safe warping and at best you would drive us to using cheap throw away mining ships that are bringing back a mere 5KT of ore at a time on some slow boat lane, and thats going to get boring real fast for all parties
 
Right now the cost of moving ore in significant quantities is just too expensive ship wise.  Too much to invest to ever risk losing.  Thats not even speaking about the dozens of hours spent mining out all the ore over several days.  All down the drain.   Make building our mega haulers a bit easier and cheaper to replace and we might consider riskier tactics in getting it home.  But if you make it common to lose all of that on a regular basis without some way of getting our ships up and running without a massive investment, then the pvp orgs will have to take turns being the miner in the barrel  because the major mining orgs will just go find something else to do with their time.  Nobody is going to put up with that.
 
 

Is this where we quote eve and people daily fly ships worth $200, and people also welp ships worth "thousands" a few days ago fielding titans in war. Another dollar in the EvE Jar.

By reading all these posts and many others it is clear there are a lot of different views on how PvP or Non-PvP should emerge in DU but one thing is coming back every time, the cost of it all and that the cost of it all is the biggest hinderence to actual gameplay, whether you are on the PVP side or the non-PVP side, miner, creator you name it.
 
I propose to open a petition to NQ With a very simple question, nothing too fancy: "Please make Time invested in DU worthwile by reducing overal costs in creating ships and buildings".
 
Alternatively this will also probably reduce the gold sellers as margins plumeth and will inspire PvP as losses are manageble. Moreover will this help the economy because everyone loves to keep industry rolling so the surplus needs to go somewhere. Only reason not to would be in my perspective if the goldsellers are actual NQ people or affiliated.
 
It all comes down to what was already said, would you risk a 200 euro/dollar ship? probably not.  Would you risk a ship thats net worth is a cup of coffee and maybe a donut?  I would, wouldn't you?

Right now we have massive amounts of resources tied up in our major mining operations and factories.  A truly mind boggling amount of quanta is tied up in all of it.  The idea of even tempting to risk some of it to pvp is laughable.  You are insane if you think we would risk a 300-500 million quanta operation on an outskirt planet to pvp if there was any serious chance of losing that much investment to a handful of bored lane campers and their cheap gank ship.  It's just not going to happen.  We probably would never trust a pvp org to guard us since they are notorious for turning on their benefactors for the lulz alone (and i'm sure guard duty would be even more boring than gank duty).  Most would rather quit playing than lose a fleet of haulers and prospectors every time they go out. Take away safe warping and at best you would drive us to using cheap throw away mining ships that are bringing back a mere 5KT of ore at a time on some slow boat lane, and thats going to get boring real fast for all parties
 
Right now the cost of moving ore in significant quantities is just too expensive ship wise.  Too much to invest to ever risk losing.  Thats not even speaking about the dozens of hours spent mining out all the ore over several days.  All down the drain.   Make building our mega haulers a bit easier and cheaper to replace and we might consider riskier tactics in getting it home.  But if you make it common to lose all of that on a regular basis without some way of getting our ships up and running without a massive investment, then the pvp orgs will have to take turns being the miner in the barrel  because the major mining orgs will just go find something else to do with their time.  Nobody is going to put up with that.
 
 

In the end this just goes back to core issues with PvP. 
 
1) Its incredibly cost prohibitive for small groups to get into. Even a rough time for large orgs. We can't expect good pvp content if the majority of the player base can't even afford to participate. Even if do find a fight its not like you get a whole lot of the fight. Some half used elements and some ammo if you're lucky. 
 
2) PvP is most fun at the current non-meta points. Small core non cube fights are some of the best. Unfortunately the game is designed to punish that play style tbh. The recent changes didn't do much to push back on flying brick designs. Gold is still way too strong and if you're fighting an M core or above thats built for PvP, time to kill starts getting measured in hours. Large weapons are still pretty much the go to unless you're trying to minmax to the finest details. 

Lol if they open up Alioth to Territory Wars this game is finished like 1-2 months after that. No doubt in my mind.
 
For funzies I decided to check the usual gold farming suspects pages to see what all this effort is worth monitarily.
 
Turns out that 100-125 million h goes for $100 and scales by how much you buy with a discount %. Turns out warp cells are $25-30 for 5k cells. Turns out ore sells for T1 for 500kl for $10-15 and goes up quickly for smaller and smaller volumes. Turns out Thorium sells for $250-500 per LITER.
 
Turns out it could cost me $25 of real money to bypass PvP and use fast travel. Turns out the ships I make are $100 a pop. Turns out the 1.26kt loads I was hauling were about $38.48.
 
Beyond that you can pretty much get anything you want on those sites and just looking how much effort or real world money investment to how quickly it is destroyed is the real issue here. If I lose a ship with a full load im out $140 with just T1 mats factored in and knowing that I could pretty much be losing out on $250+ of real monitary worth.
 
No wonder they want to take away the $25 priveledge to warp since they can sieze shipments and make the equivelent of a weeks worth of pay if they worked a job multiple times a day depending on who they hit. Or that most of the stuff siezed from Territory wars will end up on here too when mega orgs ransack everything they can pillage.
 
If and when Alioth is stripped of PvP protection being the largest planet in the solar system as a home world will be catastropic and game ending for a large majority of people who dont care about the pirana PvP group ambush gankfest if it costs them potentially hundreds in real world $ to dip their toe in or put the work in constructing a warship to lose it in 3 mins after whoever gets missle locked first loses $100.
 
The real monetary cost of this game is real for the effort that goes into doing the most simplist of things. The system NQ has set up in DU is a gold farmers dream game apparently.

And i find it funny how either oblivious or willfully ignorant you are that you think many of us are "anti-pvp" just because we dont agree with YOU or boo in general and instantly go into "cry moar carebears" mode. If you actully read our posts most of us are PRO pvp and would LOVE pvp content in the game, hell many of us crave it likey as much or more then YOU. However, we also would like there to BE a game to enjoy the pvp in and for there to be a POINT to the pvp aside from "lulz me r blew up teh noobs"
 
Your vision would not help the game and infact hurts it and quite badly.....at this time. Currently the game is not in a state where limiting options and forcing players into fights that they are likely to lose due to broken mechanics, balance issies, missing features and a SCORE of other problems is nothing but a negitive for the game. Right now we have exactly 3 flushed out mechanics. Mineing, building and flying. thats it.
 
Currently industry is broken as "only 10% of players" are supposed to use it, and while currently a determined player CAN force their way into it, the cost is so obscene that its a bad joke to new players. PvP is full of issues as noted by MANY players. There is really only 1 gameplay loop, mine to make stuff to mine more. There is zero reward to PvP aside from people like you getting to laugh as you destroy some poor carebear. And exploration is a bad joke right now especially considering how bloody long it takes and how limited most players who actully have a jobs time is. Compounding all of this is the fact there are ZERO counters to pvp that prey can use. No ECM, no jamming of radars to make targeting harder, no stealth fields, no powering down, nothing. The only solution is to build a space only warship or to jump.
 
If you then further restrict the game and start making it so travel and by extension industry and trade is even more restricted and gated off as well as blow up ships of players when getting started to begin with is already such a huge problem, then all you do is drive yet more players off. Especially with all the problems listed above, and in addition to there being no POINT to pvp. no reward no nothing. Even T4 and T5 mats are literally worthless as there is no point to them beyond fluff. No one is going to willingly risk hours or days of work for NOTHING and having it forced upon them makes them just say "to hell with this" and leave. 
 
Infact many of us have pointed out once these are addressed your idea would be much more viable and that we even AGREE warp is a problem that needs to be addressed LATER when the game has more loops, less bugs, more features, better PvP countermeasures, and more things to do in general ontop of a REASON to PvP and a reward worth the risk.
 
Then again as i said you boohoos dont care you just want to watch everything burn so you can shoot up some ships.

Many of the players complaining and crying here are not looking for fights as they just might lose. They just want kills and for that they need access to those who are not interested in being a combatant as they are easy prey. Vector into them to intercept and most will turn tail and run.
 
There is a good number of PVP focused players who engage, spar, train and research the best ways to win a fight and spend a lot of time doing so.

As there is _no_ counter to attacks currently in game, I'd say that suggestion is rather one sided.
"put guns on your ship" is not a counter.
 
With the amount of senseless and pointless pewpew currently in game and the amount of loopholes and borderline exploits giving attackers a massive advantage I'd say NQ needs to bring in proper countermeasures and introduce ways to deal with logged off beacon alts before giving more room to those looking for kills instead of fights
 
I'd say, while NQ proceeds on the PVP overhaul they have announced, why don't you find and engage with like-minded players where you will actually get a risk/reward ratio from combat  PVP..

Yeah ganking and griefing isnt PVP content. Its catering to griefers because youre too lazy to actually come up with entertaining content.

Wonder if they were surprised by how many people quit over the last big patch.

Wonder if they were surprised by how many people quit over the last big patch.

No clue but for slowboating to be a desireable option they need to do one of 3 things.
 
1. Safe zones between planets to allow travelers a place to safely log out and create shipping lanes. Bonus is it narrows where pirates need to look and also gives them multiple chances to catch accelerateing and decelerateing ships. Can also be used as a tie in point for roid fields.
 
2. Raise the speed limit either for everyone (not recomeded) or allow ships with a full set of higher tier engines to go faster then 30K to give rare materials and better engines a useage beyond "fluff"
 
3. Create engine mods you can install in any engine to allow you to push past 30K to various degrees depending on the mix of engines and mods that will require rare resources to craft and/or burn warp cells at a very slow rate. (think 1 cell per minute of active acceleration past 30k) Which also gives a reason for people to want rare resources.
 
The current "up to 8 hours in one go" slowboating method is moronic and is likely a HUGE part of why space is so damn abandonded and everyone who has anything like a job or family just warps.

lol seems about right for sanctuary.  Take that as your warning, get off sanctuary ASAP, do not stay there for any reason.
 
If we had known at the begening what we know now we would have plopped down our S-TU in any random hex, mined just enough rocks to build a barely space capable puddle jumper and flown it to Thades or Madis within the first day to set up a permeant base. 
 
Sanctuary is the roach motel of planets.  So little ore it traps you there if you try to do anything other than immediately leave.  That place needs to come with a warning to all new players showing up.

Our little corner of SLI recovered way better than most from patch .23, in fact we probably ended up stronger since it forced us to work together on a single factory and logistic operations instead of everyone on separate projects.  From what we are hearing from new members who are coming from even some of the larger guilds though we were one of the lucky ones.  Or as one of our new members mentioned last night: "I didnt leave my guild, my guild left me" (members all quite).  This game has barely survived patch .23.  Imagine how many players NQ is going to lose with the power system nerf, then the mining nerf, then atmospheric warfare so nobody but BOO and EMPIRE can keep claimed tiles on pvp planets and they push everybody else to the safe planets.
 
Good luck NQ, you are going to friggin need it.

the funny part is this isnt over,wait till they implement power gens,all that work u just did with schematics goes in the trash,now ur building gens to maintain all this u built again, but wait there's more,stay tuned

That's just the thing though.  I didn't support this game to become "game rich".  I joined to make friends, build, craft and work towards a common goal with my org mates.  But now this game is nothing BUT about making tons and tons of money even before you get to do anything else at all.  I already have a real job, thank you very much.  I don't need a game job too.

Like a previous poster, I suffered through all the grind we had before. I did end up building some cool things since pre-alpha.  But now I am told that's not how we play this game.  Instead, I am to choose one or two parts, spend millions of quanta to make them and hope that I don't choose something that gets saturated in the market.  And sell, sell, sell.  Or mine, mine, mine and then sell, sell, sell.  THEN maybe I can build something or fix something.  Meh.

I also did not sign up for Eve Online here.  I signed up for a sandbox where I could build anything I wanted.  That promise has been revoked.  No way in hell my small group of guys will be able to build what we have planned on now.  All we can do is try to make money just to keep the ships flying and the market making money for the rich guys.  I have not logged in for two weeks now.  I have cancelled all DU notifications.  I may or my not come back depending on how the next few updates are handled. 

If you guys wanna play "space billionaire," feel free and have fun.  That's not what I signed up for.
 

Mining is probably next : )
 
"Not everyone supposed to mine".

Oh look... Warp drives are back down to 1.5M on a number of markets after hitting a high of about 8M a few days ago.... That didn't take long. LOL.
 
JC, was that too quick for you? Are you going nerf tf out of everything again?

I should start off by saying, this is specifically for the devs & NQ. I'm not trolling anyone on the thread, nor demeaning anyone else.
 
I have tried defending most of the updates, even ones I didn't personally like, because the game is in beta, and there is still soooo much to do before it's released. But the schematic thing is complete bullshit. "That's not how the game is suppose to be played" is a cop-out answer. At least have the common decency to tell the truth and say "we don't care what ppl want, we already got your money, we want this so this is what we're doing...deal with it or f*ck off. We don't care either way."
 
The biggest draw to this game was I could build anything I wanted. I could do anything I wanted. As long as I could imagine it, and I put in the work to get it, I could accomplish it. With or without a group to play with. There were obvious, and large, advantages to playing with a group, but it wasn't necessary to enjoy the game, or to accomplish things. But this latest change, this is the last kick in the juju bees I'm willing to take without voicing my displeasure. And there is no defense for this. There was nothing in the fund raising that said anything about this game being another version of Eve. If I wanted to play Eve, I'd renew my sub and go play. This had sooo much more potential. Me and my group of friends played for 2 yrs, and we still hadn't got a lot of things that we wanted, and hadn't done a lot of things we wanted to do simply because of the time involved in going out to get the materials, refining, skills, etc.....,we do after all have some semblance of a life. But we were still having fun. We were a small group, less than 1/2 a dozen, that played well together, were able to coordinate and accomplish a lot. We could keep relative pace even with the larger orgs. But with this, there's absolutely no point in even logging on. We can't do anything. Go mine, sell it to bots to purchase schems so we can go mine so we can refine so we can sell, so we can mine, so we can refine, then build. Gee...that sounds like FUN! The point is to get together, work for a common goal, ie build a specific ship, building, etc..., and enjoy doing it because we could see progress and the results of our time and effort. Now it's just a grind fest.
 
I understand wanting people to work together. i get it...MMorpg does start with multi-player. However, there are much better ways to encourage it than this abomination. The players seemed to be pretty involved and working together well before this non-sense. The dev's want to slow things down? News flash, it taking months upon months of mining, crafting, planning, and working to complete ONE build is plenty 'long' enough. I even encourage the intricate crafting system. I love that part. The better you are, the more resilient, the more of a product, the less materials consumed or the better a product should turn out. So I don't even have issues with that. But again, making me buy a schem to be able to make it is inane.
 
You don't like the pace at which large orgs were progressing, then do something that would limit them. Not the community as a whole. People will always figure out a way around your idiotic, artificial time sinks. They have hundreds of players to harvest $ from so they can purchase w/e you have set up to try and 'slow' down progress. You still haven't slowed down anything, all you've done is make it impossible for smaller orgs, or small groups of players playing together to be able to do anything except mine. So effectively you've turned all of us into mining slaves for the large orgs. Nice job.
 
If you had put this crap in your fund-raising efforts, instead of the promise to be able to build anything we can imagine, I would never have put out the money to support the game. But since I did, I get to bitch about it on the forums. For all the good it will do.

@Underhook
If the shuttle is built SOLELY for warping cheaply and lightly (only >25 tons of cargo carried preferably on the player) then you should be able to warp virtually everywhere and back for less than 6 warp cells round trip, 40 would be for multiple excursions.  The cost goes up exponentially for adding more honeycomb than you need, heavier materials for looks and every element added past the bare minimum needed to get you and the warp drive off a 1g planet and into the warp capable zone and then land again after warping.
 
My lightest warp shuttle with 2 small containers can make the trip from alioth to madis on 3 warp cells, 5 warp cells with its max carrying capacity of ~60 tons.  I have seen shuttles without any cargo boxes and bare minimum elements/voxels do the trip on 2 cells.  However my MUCH beefier medium cargo container warp shuttle takes at least 5 warp cells for that same trip but can get off Alioth with a bit over half a kiloton of cargo and then warp (for a much higher warp cell cost due to weight).
 
I have heard a container for the warp cells is not even necessary, that if you keep the warp cells in your inventory then it will deduct them from your nanopack.  
 
But what do you want?  To move just you and your handbag?  Or are you planning on going on shopping trips and coming back with a few hundred tons?