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Dual Access Coupons (DAC) as Payment for Development

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As a future developer in Dual Universe, the idea of DACs as payment seems like an interesting prospect.  But the more I think about it, the more it seems like a bit of a d-bag move on the part of the developers.  I don't want this to be an overtly negative post, but bear with me..

 

I intend to be creating a whole lot of stuff in game, ships, defenses, tools, etc. with full Lua scripting to back them all up.  These things will take a TON of time to develop if you hope to have a decent result from them.  However, with the Dual Access Coupons being the only *real* form of payment I can hope to receive in game, it kind of feels like a bit of a face slap.  Think about it. 

 

I spend 25 hours working on a super awesome engine control module with advanced auto-maneuvering for someone who requested it custom.  Joe Space Captain goes to the Dual website and buys himself two DACs to give to me as payment for the work I did. Great, I got this month and next in game for free as payment.  = 30 Euro savings or whatever for me.

 

Now, instead of a custom job, I make a super awesome base turret blueprint that I sell on open market.  Let's say 250 people buy it at 500 credits each, and I trade those 125,000 credits for 5 DACs that people are selling on the market.  What happened here?  I now have 5 free months in game, which I may or may not ever use, but NovaQuark just made 75 euro in real money cash for all of that work that I did. Once I start collecting DACs like candy because now 10,000 users have realized how good it is and have purchased my super-awesome turret, NQ is rolling in the money for work I did, and those DACs I accrued have become virtually useless to me.

 

Obviously, I made assumptions the monthly fee is 12 euro and DAC are 15 euro.  Actual cost doesn't really matter.

 

The more I make and sell on market, the more trivial the DACs will become. Meanwhile, NQ makes tons of constant value cash on my work. My alternative would be to just hoard the in-game currency, which has equally nil real-world value.

 

I have to imagine that with this system of payments, serious developers and builders will eventually just start dealing outside of the game and make contracts to do in-game work with payments in real cash.  That's the only way it would actually be worth it to build things over the long term.  All of the really good stuff in game will only be accessible through various user-run black markets outside of game, with in-game market only used for trivial purchases just to get items transferred and to earn the in-game money needed for resource accumulation.

 

I could be wrong, but that's what I foresee happening. What are your thoughts? 

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interesting topic but i have to disagree because even if people decide to buy DACs to pay you and thus NQ make money off people  buying DACS, yuou still make money whether you want that payment in DACS or ingame currency and dont forget whatever you make you have a blueprint so you can keep on seeling that blueprint anyways, as for hoarding the ingame currency if we hypotheticaly agree that your creations become super popular and everyone wants them then you have more to spend on stuff if you wanted so dont really see your argument there pal because its still not really wasted your time

 

just my opinion thats all.

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If you insist of only being paid in DACs then YOU are forcing players to buy them. Then YOU are the one to blame that NQ makes money with YOUR work.

 

Simply be paid with money and buy the DACs from the market :P Problem solved. You will never get rl money for your work in-game....called rmt you know

 

Edit: works fine in Eve. Someone paid your sub, I see no problem there. NQ didn't make any extra profit except for those 2 or 3 euros per DAC, which is fine cause you can play for free and the other guy only converted real money in in-game money

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So Eve has shown that this model works really well. And one of the biggest reasons for NQ to implement this is to hinder the gold farmers. No matter what all MMO games will have them, but giving players a legal route to do this that both hinders the gold farmers, which can severely hurt the in game market, and gives players a way to play with no RL money investment. 

 

So there is a slight increase in the DAC cost with will earn NQ the difference but thats it, unless you do intentionally hord them. Lets assume there are 2 subscribers to the game. You and the guy you are selling too. In order for you both to play it requires 2 subs. if each of you buy them yourself then thats it. But lets assume he buys his and you would rather make money in game and buy a DAC. Now that guy buys his sub and a DAC, selling you one for in game currency. NQ has benefited by the difference in this transaction, but thats all. 

 

Now lets look at you working in game for what you did vs him spending real world money. If you choose to sell your 25 hr creation for 2 DACs then thats you're choice. Furthermore you can resell those designs again as you did in the second instance. What is happening is he is trading real world currency for your work in game. The money or items he gets for DAC isnt created out of thin air. It has to be earned by someone else's work in game, in this case yours. It still has to be earned by someone. 

 

So what will happen is the market will normalize at a price for DAC's eventually, a given credit amount. You will buy them with your credits. And when you have something to sell you will sell them for credits (we havent been told how the credits will be injected into the game).  You can decide how much you think your invested time is worth. It will either sell or not based on what others think. And maybe it will take you 25 hours to create something worth 2 DAC and maybe another guy can make something worth 2 DACs in just 15 hours. Whats interesting is with designs it will be highly subjective. With eve, there was a normal, somewhat restricted rate of making isk based on your skills and what you're doing. But with DU and making your own constructs, even mining could be done at varied speeds.

 

The reason I like this system is it allows people who have busy real lives and limited time to play on the same level of the basement nerd. You may have 40+ hours a week to play, whereas the guy who has a busy job and a family may only have 10 at best. (and they tend to be broken up and interrupted) Why should he be penalized for this, after all he is spending the same amount on a sub as you each month. So he finds it wroth wild to buy his sub and a DAC a month to supplement his game play. Instead of mining 10 hours a week he buys the resources and builds his ship only. 

 

Now lets say NQ decided that for $15 they just gave you 1mil in game currency. Well this would be game breaking as it could cause massive inflation in the markets and ruin the economy. This is why the method of money injection into the economy will matter. Usually MMOs do this by quest and bounties on NPCs. 

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As a future developer in Dual Universe, the idea of DACs as payment seems like an interesting prospect.  But the more I think about it, the more it seems like a bit of a d-bag move on the part of the developers.  I don't want this to be an overtly negative post, but bear with me..

 

I intend to be creating a whole lot of stuff in game, ships, defenses, tools, etc. with full Lua scripting to back them all up.  These things will take a TON of time to develop if you hope to have a decent result from them.  However, with the Dual Access Coupons being the only *real* form of payment I can hope to receive in game, it kind of feels like a bit of a face slap.  Think about it. 

 

I spend 25 hours working on a super awesome engine control module with advanced auto-maneuvering for someone who requested it custom.  Joe Space Captain goes to the Dual website and buys himself two DACs to give to me as payment for the work I did. Great, I got this month and next in game for free as payment.  = 30 Euro savings or whatever for me.

 

Now, instead of a custom job, I make a super awesome base turret blueprint that I sell on open market.  Let's say 250 people buy it at 500 credits each, and I trade those 125,000 credits for 5 DACs that people are selling on the market.  What happened here?  I now have 5 free months in game, which I may or may not ever use, but NovaQuark just made 75 euro in real money cash for all of that work that I did. Once I start collecting DACs like candy because now 10,000 users have realized how good it is and have purchased my super-awesome turret, NQ is rolling in the money for work I did, and those DACs I accrued have become virtually useless to me.

 

Obviously, I made assumptions the monthly fee is 12 euro and DAC are 15 euro.  Actual cost doesn't really matter.

 

The more I make and sell on market, the more trivial the DACs will become. Meanwhile, NQ makes tons of constant value cash on my work. My alternative would be to just hoard the in-game currency, which has equally nil real-world value.

 

I have to imagine that with this system of payments, serious developers and builders will eventually just start dealing outside of the game and make contracts to do in-game work with payments in real cash.  That's the only way it would actually be worth it to build things over the long term.  All of the really good stuff in game will only be accessible through various user-run black markets outside of game, with in-game market only used for trivial purchases just to get items transferred and to earn the in-game money needed for resource accumulation.

 

I could be wrong, but that's what I foresee happening. What are your thoughts? 

 

if your intention is to make real life money from your in game work, why complain that the only way to do it is through an out of game black market?  or are you just making a long post to suggest something like that be added to the in game markets????  I personally think that this is a game, and not meant to be a business model for us players.

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interesting topic but i have to disagree because even if people decide to buy DACs to pay you and thus NQ make money off people  buying DACS, yuou still make money whether you want that payment in DACS or ingame currency and dont forget whatever you make you have a blueprint so you can keep on seeling that blueprint anyways, as for hoarding the ingame currency if we hypotheticaly agree that your creations become super popular and everyone wants them then you have more to spend on stuff if you wanted so dont really see your argument there pal because its still not really wasted your time

 

just my opinion thats all.

 

Yeah, it's not so much about DACs as a form of payment, so much as what seems a general pointlessness to the whole DAC system.  Obviously, payment in-game would always be the in-game currency, and it would be up to the currency-holder (in this case, the builder) to decide if they want to purchase a DAC or not. It applies to resource gatherers / sellers just as much as builders.

 

When I think about it a bit deeper, I suppose it does make some sense to have them in-game as both a way for NQ to make additional money (as they are more expensive than regular sub), but also as a way to dump currency to keep the economy flowing.

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if your intention is to make real life money from your in game work, why complain that the only way to do it is through an out of game black market?  or are you just making a long post to suggest something like that be added to the in game markets????  I personally think that this is a game, and not meant to be a business model for us players.

 

I don't particularly care about RL money for game work.  It just struck me as odd that the DAC system would promote builder work to earn RL money for NQ solely, with nothing for the people adding content to the game, besides free play. 

 

Perhaps it is because I am viewing in-game built items more like player-driven DLC. Using Steam Workshop as an example, there would at least be profit sharing.

 

 

You will never get rl money for your work in-game....

 

Using Second Life as an example (because it is by far the closest existing game model to Dual Universe), there are definitely well-off players that spend real-life money to contract developers to make things for them.  I've seen it first hand, and DU seems like an excellent candidate for the same. There are those players who spend $1200 for an early copy of No Man's Sky and people who buy the $139.99 coin pack for free to play games. Somehow, people have money to blow on ridiculous things.

 

 

The reason I like this system is it allows people who have busy real lives and limited time to play on the same level of the basement nerd.

 

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with this statement.  The basement nerd who lives online might have distinct advantages over those (like me) with families and super busy lives. Time spent in game means more time to build and script bigger, better, and badder objects. 

 

I fear that DU might become a prime example of pay to win.  If the builder decides not to sell blueprints regularly on open markets, but rather sell single copies to the highest bidder.  If those items have distinct advantages over what is currently available, then simply buying DACs and selling to earn in-game money might be all you need to become the next tyrant leader until the next person buys something better and takes you down.  Or perhaps the builder decides to become the tyrant for a time and later decides to offer their Death Star to the highest bidder on ebay. Just a couple of examples. 

 

Perhaps I'm just a cynic at heart, but I really hope that doesn't happen to DU. 

 

This topic was started mainly in hopes of promoting discussion around the topic in hopes NQ sees it and figures out a way to prevent it.

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This is not second life and I'm not referring to second life or any other game. This is DU.

 

 

There will always be tyrants. With or without DAC. Take eve: when you know what to do you can make with ease 20bil+ per month with like 10min/day, a plex is around 1bil - you have to invest like 350€/month to get the same money. And 20bil/month is only the lower margin, you CAN do way way more.....

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I sympathise with the initial complaint. The whole concept of DACs could potentially become meaningless if you are successful enough on the market. At the same time, I wonder if NQ were to translate DACs into real world currency how would that effect the gameplay? My initial thoughts are that in some sense it would impoverish the overall gaming experience.

Being pretty new to DU I'm pretty intrigued by the idea of in-game scripting. But perhaps like CodeGlitch0 I'm also a cynic at heart in that I have concerns that scripting will become (intentionally or otherwise) a P2W dynamic.

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of a similar mechanic in the Steam F2P game, Robocraft to the proposed on in DU. Players can create their own vehicles and then choose to sell them on a market and earn cash (I assume just in-game currency but I'm not sure about this). The result is heavily mismatched battles in which you encounter dominant players - sometimes it's genuine skill (no complaints there) but other times it's down to better machines, and here I'm guessing that some of these are bought rather than earned. Additionally, you have people spamming general chat with pleas to buy their latest and greatest machine. It doesn't make for a great gaming experience or a nice community. Now the games are completely different but perhaps it's a good example of what can happen with a blueprint market.

 

I think when you add the possibility of earning real world cash then things begin to get messy and perhaps the gaming community becomes a little crass as you attract people who are convinced that they will make their fortune. Conversely, in-game cash has it's own problems as highlighted by the Robocraft example.

 

All in all, it's going to be a tricky one for NQ to figure out.

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I disagree a bit about the idea of Dual Universe being that close to Second Life. Even less regarding money. Dual Universe is using the same model as EVE online. 

 

DACs are PLEX, and work the very same way. 

 

Economy will be driven by market orders, asked and fullfilled by players. Therefore their value will change depending on  demand/offer.

DACs, like PLEX in EVE, are a special item. Subject to the same market rules, but these are different in that they have a fixed value in real money, and they can't be crafted. These properties give some stability to the item value and provide a reference for all the market.

 

Being suscription model and with DACs, NQ doesn't really have much to figure out. It is a very well tested scenario, and they do well in my opinion to follow something that works. I wouldn't change it. You want to make profit from an item crafted in game? Have your profit in game.

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[...]

 

I think when you add the possibility of earning real world cash then things begin to get messy and perhaps the gaming community becomes a little crass as you attract people who are convinced that they will make their fortune. Conversely, in-game cash has it's own problems as highlighted by the Robocraft example.

 

All in all, it's going to be a tricky one for NQ to figure out.

 

Hmmm, I disagree for several reasons.

 

First: you are not supposed to "earn" IRL money by any extent of the meaning. In this regard, I have trouble understanding why OP insists on being paid with DACs instead of in-game currency if he really gets that popular and really get a metric-ton of DACs which he ultimately finds useless...

 

You can buy play time with both ingame money, or IRL cash, but the fact that YOU are converting DACs  bought within the game market into IRL cash in your head is pretty irrelevant in my humble opinion. It doesn't change anything regarding the gaming experience you can get from the game, it does not provide any perk or upgraded feature, and it does not hinder the experience of other players in any way.

 

Secondly, unlike DU, Robocraft is a free to play with a premium subscription to help you boost your progression in the game (research points and credits earned with each match). In that regard, almost every player in DU (except for those with a free access/limited functionalities) will play the same game / have the same "potential" in earnings, features etc.

In robocraft, you can either put IRL money in the game for a temporary boost, or have people buying your creations to try and have an equal income as those with a paid account. This is not the case un DU, but I beleieve you will certainly see people spamming the general chat to promote their creations indeed. These people will certainly get muted / warned by GMs within minutes though.

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As a future developer in Dual Universe, the idea of DACs as payment seems like an interesting prospect.  But the more I think about it, the more it seems like a bit of a d-bag move on the part of the developers.  I don't want this to be an overtly negative post, but bear with me..

 

I intend to be creating a whole lot of stuff in game, ships, defenses, tools, etc. with full Lua scripting to back them all up.  These things will take a TON of time to develop if you hope to have a decent result from them.  However, with the Dual Access Coupons being the only *real* form of payment I can hope to receive in game, it kind of feels like a bit of a face slap.  Think about it. 

 

I spend 25 hours working on a super awesome engine control module with advanced auto-maneuvering for someone who requested it custom.  Joe Space Captain goes to the Dual website and buys himself two DACs to give to me as payment for the work I did. Great, I got this month and next in game for free as payment.  = 30 Euro savings or whatever for me.

 

Now, instead of a custom job, I make a super awesome base turret blueprint that I sell on open market.  Let's say 250 people buy it at 500 credits each, and I trade those 125,000 credits for 5 DACs that people are selling on the market.  What happened here?  I now have 5 free months in game, which I may or may not ever use, but NovaQuark just made 75 euro in real money cash for all of that work that I did. Once I start collecting DACs like candy because now 10,000 users have realized how good it is and have purchased my super-awesome turret, NQ is rolling in the money for work I did, and those DACs I accrued have become virtually useless to me.

 

Obviously, I made assumptions the monthly fee is 12 euro and DAC are 15 euro.  Actual cost doesn't really matter.

 

The more I make and sell on market, the more trivial the DACs will become. Meanwhile, NQ makes tons of constant value cash on my work. My alternative would be to just hoard the in-game currency, which has equally nil real-world value.

 

I have to imagine that with this system of payments, serious developers and builders will eventually just start dealing outside of the game and make contracts to do in-game work with payments in real cash.  That's the only way it would actually be worth it to build things over the long term.  All of the really good stuff in game will only be accessible through various user-run black markets outside of game, with in-game market only used for trivial purchases just to get items transferred and to earn the in-game money needed for resource accumulation.

 

I could be wrong, but that's what I foresee happening. What are your thoughts? 

 

 

The simple solution: If you don't feel like playing DU don't. How you spend your time doing so and whether or not you feel like it's a worthwhile investment are entirely subjective and based on personal perspective. First of all, for you to believe that you "deserve" some sort of just reward for playing a video game as a self-purported "developer" is laughable to say the very least.

 

Secondly, for you to consider your time spent as a measurable source of real world income speaks to a number of psycho-social disorders not the least of which is blatant narcissism. Tell me, when driving down the road at night, do you look out of your vehicle's window and wonder "why is the moon following me again"?

 

How about, "get a life"?

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Woah! Easy now. Your post is completely out of order. 

 

I agree, the OP saying the devs made a douche-bag move by selling DAC's and making them trade-able is totally out of line.

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Come on Blakjac. If you are going to respond to my comment then respond to what I said - both the spirit and the substance of my words. On several occasions, the OP said that he was trying to start a discussion, which is entirely different to him stating that the 'devs made a douche-bag move'. He even granted in a later post that the DAC as a concept has its merits. So let's all take a step back and realise that this is an extraordinarily early point in the development of the game and just about anything is up for discussion.

The value I've taken so far from this thread is to think a little more about in-game scripting and what it could mean. While the concept is cool my concern is that it could compound the disadvantage part-time players will face. No only will they not be able to amass resources at the same rate as others, they may also be at a disadvantage to those gifted enough at scripting (I'm a front-end developer by trade so my idea of scripting is probably completely different from in-game scripting). What do you think Blackjac? Do you see any issues here?

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Well.....And where's the problem? So not all of us are going to play 24/7? Wow big deal, devs can't do shut about it. If someone has no life/work/wife/whatever and plays DU OF CoURSE HE will have an advantage.

 

So someone can script better. Or build better. Or is smarter. Well that's life, isn't it? Just like in RL there will be trolls, ppl who can do stuff better and ppl who just don't care. Just like in rl those ppl will.get away with it, earn more money and be better than you. I don't see a problem

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If allowing in game currency to purchase real game time is a d-bag move ... then I'd wish all developers were d-bags .... faceslap me all day and I'd be happy with having that problem of having too many DAC's   lol   I don't want this to be an overtly negative post, but bear with me..

 

You make and invent to play the game ... and if it gets you free play time to a subscription game then that's a very nice bonus. 

 

If you do have such a stockpile of DAC's you can sell them in market and use the game cash for whatever you want.

 

I see what you are saying but I do not see any d-bagging or negative to being in such a position.  NQ needs to make a profit for their product and that is to be expected and I hope they do so I can play this for years and years.

 

Playing a game and doing stuff in game only can yield you game rewards .... well duh.  You are not being hired by a development company, you are choosing to join an MMO.

 

I would worry more about the game mechanics and how to make the digital cash first before worrying how you are getting cheated by such success.  There are many smart creative people you will be in competition with.

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Well.....And where's the problem? So not all of us are going to play 24/7? Wow big deal, devs can't do shut about it. If someone has no life/work/wife/whatever and plays DU OF CoURSE HE will have an advantage.

 

So someone can script better. Or build better. Or is smarter. Well that's life, isn't it? Just like in RL there will be trolls, ppl who can do stuff better and ppl who just don't care. Just like in rl those ppl will.get away with it, earn more money and be better than you. I don't see a problem

 

I gave an example of a game that as part of a major update introduced a similar dynamic (user created blueprints that are traded on a marketplace) and how this has damaged the balance of the game. This has made for a poorer game and I've raised this as a potential problem for DU. What I'm not suggesting is that DU removes all competitive advantage.

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No, you said in your post that NQ makes money with YOUR work. Which isn't true as pointed out. And you implied that in order to make rl money users will build a black market, which I can't follow why one would think that.

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Hmmm, I disagree for several reasons.

 

First: you are not supposed to "earn" IRL money by any extent of the meaning. In this regard, I have trouble understanding why OP insists on being paid with DACs instead of in-game currency if he really gets that popular and really get a metric-ton of DACs which he ultimately finds useless...

 

You can buy play time with both ingame money, or IRL cash, but the fact that YOU are converting DACs  bought within the game market into IRL cash in your head is pretty irrelevant in my humble opinion. It doesn't change anything regarding the gaming experience you can get from the game, it does not provide any perk or upgraded feature, and it does not hinder the experience of other players in any way.

 

Secondly, unlike DU, Robocraft is a free to play with a premium subscription to help you boost your progression in the game (research points and credits earned with each match). In that regard, almost every player in DU (except for those with a free access/limited functionalities) will play the same game / have the same "potential" in earnings, features etc.

In robocraft, you can either put IRL money in the game for a temporary boost, or have people buying your creations to try and have an equal income as those with a paid account. This is not the case un DU, but I beleieve you will certainly see people spamming the general chat to promote their creations indeed. These people will certainly get muted / warned by GMs within minutes though.

I missed your post originally. Good points.

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No, you said in your post that NQ makes money with YOUR work. Which isn't true as pointed out. And you implied that in order to make rl money users will build a black market, which I can't follow why one would think that.

I said nor implied nothing of the sort

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