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Elephant in the room: PVP in DU = Pay to win


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It is quite obvious Athena is adding more features for pvp so that more players and orgs participate.
PVP never been popular among majority of players that own only 1 account. Participating or wanting to, requires levelling hundreds of pvp related talents that most players wont, because there are other hundreds more vital talents to enjoy better a quiet life. 

 

But NQ has done the probably unfixable mistake to open market to shadow PC players, which ultimately broke PVP in DU
There is not a single PVP org member that have less than 2 accounts and play pvp with 2 DU clients open on a single computer
Meaning a minimum of 2 characters seated in the same ship and ready for pvp, controlled by 1 single person, meaning double of weapon power controlled by 1 "at the same time"

Us random folks and orgs have absolutely no chance out there

What should be reviewed by NQ to rebalance this and give equal chance to anyone?

2 solutions:

1) Re enable the VR controls, letting player in VR use remotes / programming boards / command seats / pvp seats
VR could still restrain inventories access, and talents

2) Remove the number of allowed weapons per seat, but allocate it per construct

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That is not so true. I like to fly my PvP ship through the PvP zone and have only one account online at a time. 
Ever thought that PvP itself is more of a group game so you can be really good at it? Two players working well together should always outnumber a solo player. So, find friends and play together in a group.

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You are going to feel the pain and unbalance coming with Athena dont worry

They are implementing those aliens core and space warfare, where we will need to hold onto temporary built space fortress for the longest time possible
That will completely immobilise entire orgs members daily activities just to guard a mining unit that give 1 item per 6h


Unless of course you have multiple accounts and can just leave your pvp perk that you can log in with anytime at no cost but the cost of an additional subscription

= pay to win

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Multiple accounts are allowed in DU.

Multiple clients in pvp were not allowed (unless NQ changed their mind on that front).

 

The problem is then not that it p2w, but that it's cheating in pvp.

Of course, there are arguments to be made for multiple accounts in DU to be p2w, but win what exactly?

Of course a single account with 20 months training in piloting and gunnery will win from a single account with only 3 months of training in the same skills... That first account started earlier, has more talent points and paid more in subscriptions then the second account. Is that also p2w in your mind?

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1 minute ago, Cergorach said:

Multiple accounts are allowed in DU.

Multiple clients in pvp were not allowed (unless NQ changed their mind on that front).

 

The problem is then not that it p2w, but that it's cheating in pvp.

Of course, there are arguments to be made for multiple accounts in DU to be p2w, but win what exactly?

Of course a single account with 20 months training in piloting and gunnery will win from a single account with only 3 months of training in the same skills... That first account started earlier, has more talent points and paid more in subscriptions then the second account. Is that also p2w in your mind?


multiple accounts will be impossible to control, unless they let us build multiple characters with 1 account (what 100% of mmos do btw)

but having normal client plus running DU on shadow PC on same computer is common place for lot of PVP users
gives them enormous advantages, the first 1 is to double their fire power and be only 1 person out there, they dont need to move with friends and orgs, they are fully equiped for taking and having 100% of chance against any other single player even with full talents and max tier elements
is that cheating? not really, because NQ allows it, and did nothing to counter it. so its pay to win
 

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There is no actual evidence of a good number of players multiboxing in PVP with several Alts, unles you can show that, your argument falls flat.


And if you actually understand how a Shadow PC will work in this regard you'd know that it really is not a viable option for multiboxing PVP. A group of players against a muiltiboxing solo player will always favor the group in a massive way. INstead of complaining about this, even if true, get a group together and go punish them..
 

Alts in general are not a NQ or DU issue, besides it not being an issue at all IMO, it is a general occurence in MMO games. 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

There is no actual evidence of a good number of players multiboxing in PVP with several Alts, unles you can show that, your argument falls flat.


And if you actually understand how a Shadow PC will work in this regard you'd know that it really is not a viable option for multiboxing PVP. A group of players against a muiltiboxing solo player will always favor the group in a massive way. INstead of complaining about this, even if true, get a group together and go punish them..
 

Alts in general are not a NQ or DU issue, besides it not being an issue at all IMO, it is a general occurence in MMO games. 


all mmos are skilled based and unless having 4 arms and 2 pairs of eyes, dual client is unpraticable
DU is lock and fire, where you only press couple buttons then it does the job for you, with only 1 hand can handle easily 2 clients

we are no more than 500 active players, i personally dont have other account, but i m surrounded by others who have up to 8 accounts to be able to cover all talents
the more time will go after release the more players will join the more this exploit will be abused if nothing is done!

punishing them is stupid, prooves that you didnt adventure that much in space, pvp is obviously awaiting around asteroids, but not only, it can be anywhere around the corner
space is large. and i know no one around me or in my orgs whiling to loose hours doing nothing in space but looking for a needle in a haystack
and what i want is a fair fight when i want to do a mission alone and not ask 10 of my mates to company me for such task

Edited by Jeronimo
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27 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

we are no more than 500 active players,

Source for this statement?

 

27 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

the more time will go after release the more players will join the more this exploit will be abused if nothing is done!

It's not an exploit

 

Again, you clearly have no idea how Shadow PC works.. and I very much doubt that there is players who spend $30 a month per shadow account just to dualbox several alts in PVP in DU. That idea is just silly as there are much better options in PVP games to do that cheaper and easier.

 

You make a lot of assumptions and statements for which you really have not presented anything that validates them.

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44 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Source for this statement?

 

It's not an exploit

 

Again, you clearly have no idea how Shadow PC works.. and I very much doubt that there is players who spend $30 a month per shadow account just to dualbox several alts in PVP in DU. That idea is just silly as there are much better options in PVP games to do that cheaper and easier.

 

You make a lot of assumptions and statements for which you really have not presented anything that validates them.

active accounts are said to be around 3000 by NQ
active accounts includes active players with all their alts
hopes at release are to be around 95k subs

if there is couple of the alpha tester i never ever encountered in game, you are one
first you come play the game, and you ll se how dead it is, join big orgs and see how many active players are in compare to total members
if active players are ready to pay for 8 accounts, 30$ more for a shadow play is nothing, and shadow Pc is nothing else but a PC over IP, so can even be used to play with a tablet pc
there were also a bunch whiling to pay more than 1000$ for playing this game

so dont say there arent players that will do everything to dominate at all costs


if a dozen players abuse of this dual client out of 3000 today, it will be couple hundreds out of 95k players tomorow

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14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

active accounts are said to be around 3000 by NQ

Source?

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

active accounts includes active players with all their alts

True

 

An educated guestimate regarding concurrent daily logins is about 600 and about 65-ish K unique active accounts (backers, beta keys and subscribers), those numbers are based on the numbers on MMO-population divided by a factor 7 as that is a fairly consistent factor for other MMO games on that site where we know actual numbers so we can compare.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

hopes at release are to be around 95k subs

Again, source?

I see no path for NQ to gain that many subs, it woudl take amiracle iof they hit half that, which may be barely enough for NQ to stay alive.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

if there is couple of the alpha tester i never ever encountered in game, you are one

That is because you are not on my friendslist, you appear to not have the same interests as mee and possibly are in a different timezone than me.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

if active players are ready to pay for 8 accounts, 30$ more for a shadow play is nothing, and shadow Pc is nothing else but a PC over IP, so can even be used to play with a tablet pc

I know very well what a Shadow PC is, I am paying for one and have for a long time.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

there were also a bunch whiling to pay more than 1000$ for playing this game

so dont say there arent players that will do everything to dominate at all costs

There will always be whales and NQ willprobably need a lot more than they have currently.

Also, I never said there weren't any, I said not in the numbers you seem to be claiming

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

if a dozen players abuse of this dual client out of 3000 today, it will be couple hundreds out of 95k players tomorow

 

"If" being the keyword here. Again, you have nothing to actually back up your claim so it's really just speculative assumptions to try and justify an otherwise baseless opinion.

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I really think it's important in these discussions to make a distinction between people using Alts, and people automating Alts.

 

If anyone is cloning mouse clicks or keystrokes to control an Alt, that is cheating.

 

It really has nothing to do with the Alt though, it's just cheating in general. 

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I think it's more about the function of what you can do with an alt. PvP is a click game. click target, unlock, shoot. you click that once and that's it. Accordingly, you can very well click through some alt accounts and thus build up a group or an army to annoy other players in the PvP area.

I don't really see an advantage in this as a "game goal", since there is no goal in DualUniverse. There is no "first or best" there are no kill lists or score lists, nothing that would somehow make sense to want to achieve something there to stroke your own ego.

You one might even build more through LAt accounts because you get more core slots with it. Is that an advantage? At least not a game influencing one, but a way to build more through more money.

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11 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

I think it's more about the function of what you can do with an alt.

 

NQ will never be able to determine whether there are one or two people in the room.  So, they'll never really be able to stop people from using alts.

When they try, by doing things like stopping us from running multiple clients, all it does is widen the gap/advantage between people who are doing it and people who aren't.

 

But one player controlling two accounts will always be at a disadvantage to two equally skilled players.  Unless they are cheating by automating one of the accounts.

 

My point is just that If people are gaining an advantage by using Alts in PVP, the answer is to bring friends.

 

If people are gaining an advantage in PVP by automating Alts, the answer is for NQ to ban them.

 

 

 

 

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If you want to do PvP on the game, it is mandatory to have at least 2 accounts.
 

Unfortunately any player wanting to do PvP, this one being most of the time unpredictable, when your cargo is 6 hours away you don't know when we may need you, you have to be ready all the time, you can't allow you to be doing another activity.
 

It is therefore obligatory to permanently keep a character ready to fight next to or in a ship. While you do your stuff on another.
This is the bare minimum.
 

And then for the most competitive in PvP, it is also mandatory to have 2 accounts to be able to use a second gunner with GEFORCE NOW.
This is what most people do in PvP.
 

We went from an unkillable ship to:
- Massive nerf to voxel HP
- Added CCS
- Addition of the game on GFN so doubling of the TTK
(- Still little point in using higher tier voxel rather than T1 plastic)

And there are still plenty of Alpha players in the game.
Half of our most active members are still people who started in alpha. The other half being people paying 2 subscriptions.

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9 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

If you want to do PvP on the game, it is mandatory to have at least 2 accounts.
 

Unfortunately any player wanting to do PvP, this one being most of the time unpredictable, when your cargo is 6 hours away you don't know when we may need you, you have to be ready all the time, you can't allow you to be doing another activity.
 

It is therefore obligatory to permanently keep a character ready to fight next to or in a ship. While you do your stuff on another.
This is the bare minimum.
 

And then for the most competitive in PvP, it is also mandatory to have 2 accounts to be able to use a second gunner with GEFORCE NOW.
This is what most people do in PvP.
 

We went from an unkillable ship to:
- Massive nerf to voxel HP
- Added CCS
- Addition of the game on GFN so doubling of the TTK
(- Still little point in using higher tier voxel rather than T1 plastic)

And there are still plenty of Alpha players in the game.
Half of our most active members are still people who started in alpha. The other half being people paying 2 subscriptions.

 

 

thx for sharing you experience Knight-Sevy

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Hi !

I agree with you. Also i made a similar post but I didnt read this before making it . Thankfully is a bit different than yours one as it describes economy and fearness .

I think they should think of making DU a single player game , allowing players to operate only one account . But that is just me.

 

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51 minutes ago, Habitant said:

Hi !

I agree with you. Also i made a similar post but I didnt read this before making it . Thankfully is a bit different than yours one as it describes economy and fearness .

I think they should think of making DU a single player game , allowing players to operate only one account . But that is just me.

 

 

it will be impossible for them to control accounts, but yes gives huge progression advantage to players owning multiple accounts
Its like that we have to do with it, other games are same, and NQ will never say no to more sub/money

But other games allow multiple characters per account


They just have to do things right for that doesn't disadvantage in any case single account players

And right now is the PVP the most affected/unbalanced by geforcenow or other PCoIP, more than the economy itself

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1 hour ago, Jeronimo said:

it will be impossible for them to control accounts, but yes gives huge progression advantage to players owning multiple accounts

That opinion would only be valid IF the progression accounts make is shared across all accounts the player owns. And that is not the case.

 

I have 10 alts currently, come "release" I will probably just have my four backer accounts accounts and each of these are entirely separate. Funny thing is one of my characters is playing with some of the people who have no idea it's one of my accounts. and probably would not be happy if they find out as some of them love to pick fights with me here on Discord.

 

The core of the argument here is "I play solo, I choose to not play together with others, and I am not able to match their abilities which is why I am reeling against the people who run multiple accounts." Fact is that four players going at it together are FAR more advanced and powerful than one player with four accounts.

 

Instead of complaining about this, why not find others and join forces as a group to achieve a better progression together.

 

 

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I have always played solo and that is my thing. But I also never expect to be competitive, except maybe in some small niche I happen to find that has not yet been filled by the larger actors. Simple fact is that for every "winner", there must also be a "loser". Or maybe loser is not the right word, but someone making less quanta and loosing out on opportunities at least.

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About 1/4 of the pvpers in our group play with one character. A handful of us multibox multiple computers and can field 3+ accounts into a fight. Most of our group can field 2, the main box, and geforce now. 

 

Yes, if you want to pvp in this game you keep a character near a fueled up and ready ship. Or you are ready to force respawn back to that ship.

 

Yes, you stand very little chance out there if you wander out alone. You stand very little chance out there if you wander out alone running 2 alts, 3 or 4. You probably gonna die.

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Don't distort the pay2win tag. While I don't disagree that having multiple accounts has some big advantages. It's a far cry froming being able to buy premium ammo that's better then you get in game.

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On 4/18/2022 at 11:33 AM, blazemonger said:

That opinion would only be valid IF the progression accounts make is shared across all accounts the player owns. And that is not the case.

That depends on how you do it...

Examples:

Training, you can train x times faster, certain characters can do thing 1, the other thing 2, the other thing 3, etc. I have two dedicated pilots, everything to lvl 5, one dedicated Element placer and one industrialist. You could train dedicated gunners, split up the Industry stack across multiple accounts, etc. You, as a player, can do everything well (it might just require a different character).

 

Automining, allows you x times the charges to automine, allowing you to mine more ore then a single account. Use for your main account.

 

Missions, gives you multiple valuable packages to transport. Makes more quanta you can use for your main account.

 

Multiple accounts can't run on a single PC, but they can run on multiple PCs. Which is allowed by NQ, as long as you don't use multiple chars in PVP.

One PC flying missions, one PC doing other stuff...

 

Multiple accounts do make the progression of the 'collective' faster. More quanta, more ore, cheaper production, more profit, better ships/industry, etc. This snowballs quickly!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

That depends on how you do it...

Examples:

Training, you can train x times faster, certain characters can do thing 1, the other thing 2, the other thing 3, etc. I have two dedicated pilots, everything to lvl 5, one dedicated Element placer and one industrialist. You could train dedicated gunners, split up the Industry stack across multiple accounts, etc. You, as a player, can do everything well (it might just require a different character).

 

Automining, allows you x times the charges to automine, allowing you to mine more ore then a single account. Use for your main account.

 

Missions, gives you multiple valuable packages to transport. Makes more quanta you can use for your main account.

 

Multiple accounts can't run on a single PC, but they can run on multiple PCs. Which is allowed by NQ, as long as you don't use multiple chars in PVP.

One PC flying missions, one PC doing other stuff...

 

Multiple accounts do make the progression of the 'collective' faster. More quanta, more ore, cheaper production, more profit, better ships/industry, etc. This snowballs quickly!

 

 

 

 

you didnt really need to explain
we all know this, but ppl like him are just trolling...

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16 hours ago, Cergorach said:

That depends on how you do it...

Examples:

Training, you can train x times faster, certain characters can do thing 1, the other thing 2, the other thing 3, etc. I have two dedicated pilots, everything to lvl 5, one dedicated Element placer and one industrialist. You could train dedicated gunners, split up the Industry stack across multiple accounts, etc. You, as a player, can do everything well (it might just require a different character).

 

Not really, this pretty much woudl be the same situation as a group of players joined in an org and dividing talents/skills. Effectively though, they will always hav ethe upper hand as eny one of yor characters can't utilize the other's talents at the same time in the same moment, unless you have several separate PCs you can only log in the character you need and it woudl be far more efficient to play with a group than with Alts, which is my point.

Yes, you as a player have several characters which can doo it all between them, but not at the same time 

 

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