Jump to content

@NQ Devs can you at least talk to us?


Warlander
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Yes, release will stop it. It is very likely that there will be some kind of wipe (partial or full) before release that will make the claimed tiles obsolete. However, the main purpose of a beta is testing and balancing. The conditions should be as closed to the final product as possible. Yes, I know that the "bata" is in fact the alpha and the "finished product" will be the real beta, but that dosn't make it much better. NQ will need to find a balance between newcomers and established players as well as between casual and hardcore players (not to speak of exploiters). I don't think they will get that under control after release if they don't care now. I'm afraid some weeks after a wipe we will have the same mess as before (once again).

No, I think we will have a new and different mess a few weeks after a wipe, particularly if it comes with a switch of beta accounts into paid subs.  Honestly there can't really be any balance in the game when some people have got 60+ beta accounts which cost them nothing and others are playing with 1-2 paid subs.  How could the game ever work properly and balance both of those types of players together.  At the moment attempts to curb the 60+ account players are, IMO, driving the more casual types out of the game completely by over-nerfing, over-taxing, etc them.

After the beta accounts become paid we won't have the problems you describe where players can lock up loads of land forever.  But we will have the problem that the organised groups can beat everyone to the good stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Yes, release will stop it. It is very likely that there will be some kind of wipe (partial or full) before release that will make the claimed tiles obsolete. However, the main purpose of a beta is testing and balancing. The conditions should be as closed to the final product as possible. Yes, I know that the "bata" is in fact the alpha and the "finished product" will be the real beta, but that dosn't make it much better. NQ will need to find a balance between newcomers and established players as well as between casual and hardcore players (not to speak of exploiters). I don't think they will get that under control after release if they don't care now. I'm afraid some weeks after a wipe we will have the same mess as before (once again).

Oh, and do you really think there will be a wipe?  So far NQ have backed away from every decision which would negatively affect the assets of the mass of former players out there, including backing out of the org changes, going back on the element stacking changes multiple times and more recently a stealth-nerf to the territory taxing mechanism which means that almost all of the stale territories out there will be preserved and unclaimable forever despite their owners not even bothering to log in and mark their tile as an HQ tile.

Does that sound like an organisation which is brave enough to completely wipe their persistent world MMO 1 1/2 years after they said they wouldn't in the hope that the players will come back and build a whole new world from scratch?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

At the moment attempts to curb the 60+ account players are, IMO, driving the more casual types out of the game completely by over-nerfing, over-taxing, etc them.

I don't think that they try to curb multi-account players. Many changes actually promote them - most probably because they behave similar to orgs and NQ is still following their civilisation building agenda. Casual and solo players don't fit into their vision.

 

42 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Oh, and do you really think there will be a wipe?

Yes, I do. Currently it is the best option for them not to wipe because they are focused on the established player population. But release will turn the tide. If NQ wants to survive with DU than they will need so many new players that the beta veterans will become a minority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

I don't think that they try to curb multi-account players. Many changes actually promote them - most probably because they behave similar to orgs and NQ is still following their civilisation building agenda. Casual and solo players don't fit into their vision.

 

The VR mission change was a direct nerf to the people using large numbers of beta accounts.  Also the taxation system decouples the cost from the number of alts you have (if they didn't chicken out and add HQ tiles).

 

48 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Yes, I do. Currently it is the best option for them not to wipe because they are focused on the established player population. But release will turn the tide. If NQ wants to survive with DU than they will need so many new players that the beta veterans will become a minority.

 

That would be nice!  But where will these hoards of players come from?  How will they get to know about DU and why will they be playing then and not now?  Please don't say they're waiting in the wings but not starting because they're waiting for a wipe ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They should have never called this phase a beta with so many game changing alterations, features getting canned, features we would nevernevernever get getting installed, stuff like that.

Its still alpha in everything but the name. Release it now and you will get what you can expect, total cancellation within a year, bankruptcy of a company. On a good point, it was always said that on release backers could get their money back when delivery of game was not what they hoped it would be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2021 at 5:03 AM, Aaron Cain said:

They should have never called this phase a beta with so many game changing alterations, features getting canned, features we would nevernevernever get getting installed, stuff like that.

Its still alpha in everything but the name. Release it now and you will get what you can expect, total cancellation within a year, bankruptcy of a company. On a good point, it was always said that on release backers could get their money back when delivery of game was not what they hoped it would be.

There was enough of the vision in place to transition to beta.  In fact, I complimented JC and NQ at the time for correctly using alpha and beta status in-line with other software industries (outside of games) instead of a greedy "Beta" money grab like so many games.  It needs to be moved back to alpha, possibly pre-alpha state based on what has been removed and the stated reasons for it being removed.  From my perspective, the changes made since at least 0.23 indicate that the initial design is still out of technical reach and the whole project would be better off with a new ground up approach based on lessons learned rather than counterproductive reactionary "fixes" as we hobble along.  I'm not saying to scrap everything, but I don't think the current NQ team and leadership can deliver anything even remotely close to the original vision without it becoming a hyper-realistic mirror of the broken things in the real world (i.e. not fun for anyone).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The time when devs could speak openly on the forums passed a long time ago.

Despite all the promises made, NQ never did manage to maintain any kind of sensible information flow and two way communication has been non existent. And that caused a lot of resentment (justifiably), which means it would be very difficult for a dev to jump in now.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2021 at 4:03 AM, Aaron Cain said:

They should have never called this phase a beta with so many game changing alterations, features getting canned, features we would nevernevernever get getting installed, stuff like that.

Its still alpha in everything but the name. Release it now and you will get what you can expect, total cancellation within a year, bankruptcy of a company. On a good point, it was always said that on release backers could get their money back when delivery of game was not what they hoped it would be.

 

They had to call it beta because charging a sub for an "alpha" wouldn't fly and if it's still alpha then it's subject to wipe and that would cause even more to not want to pay. They [filtered]ed up no doubt, their best solution was go another year of alpha but guessing they didn't have the funds for it.  If so then the project was probably always doomed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

If so then the project was probably always doomed.

I have long suspected that the real money to be made from DU, the actual profit target, was licensing the server tech to other studios.  DU itself seemed like more of a passion project meant to showcase a server tech breakthrough, IMO.  That is a large part of why JC leaving put a damper on my own enthusiasm for the project.  A passion project becomes a rat's nest to anyone missing even a fraction of that passion, and that kills many projects regardless of funding or release status.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Wyndle said:

I have long suspected that the real money to be made from DU, the actual profit target, was licensing the server tech to other studios.  DU itself seemed like more of a passion project meant to showcase a server tech breakthrough, IMO.  That is a large part of why JC leaving put a damper on my own enthusiasm for the project.  A passion project becomes a rat's nest to anyone missing even a fraction of that passion, and that kills many projects regardless of funding or release status.

 

Yeah this always comes up...this idea that NQ spent 7 years and $20+ million on some "tech demo". It doesn't add up to me. 

 

People suggest that NQ wants to license their "server tech" -- what server tech...?! What "breakthrough"...?

 

Nothing they've made has scaled...not with the initial crowd that joined public beta, not even months later with the few thousand people left (if that). They nerfed industry in part to save on server costs. They removed mining to save on server costs. Even small scale PvP can still be laggy. There's still all sorts of bugs in basic features. 

 

The only tech they've developed is tech that has struggled to perform even at low usage...tech that is tightly coupled with AWS (using technology like DynamoDB) and Unigen2.

 

Honestly, it's not worth even $100. 

 

IMO JC's "passion" is one of the things that made this project impossible from the get-go -- it was all passion, but without having any experience in game development whatsoever. All passion but no substance is like your stoner roommate having "a great idea for a game". Maybe it is a great idea....but that doesn't mean much if they don't have the experience and skills to execute it.

 

One of the most overwhelmingly common mistakes novice game devs make is overcomplicating their first project(s) -- because they don't know what it really takes, so they make grand plans that lack real details...just as NQ has done with DU since the start. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

Yeah this always comes up...this idea that NQ spent 7 years and $20+ million on some "tech demo". It doesn't add up to me. 

I never said they had the tech working.  Until it does work it would be correct in stating that it isn't of value.  If the server tech is no longer being developed then this project is barely more than a graphics intense space clone of Minecraft with vague aspirations of being compared to other games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Should 100% be a wipe on release (or sooner, all these new mechanics would be much better with a clean slate).

 

Sure some will be annoyed they lost stuff, but if they like actually playing the game thats not the end of the world cause its a chance to play it again... existing players have a massive advantage on already knowing the game and will have a significant head start, so the elite will easily be elite again, probably more so. 

 

The ones who would get really salty are probably the same ones who complain they are so end game they dont have anything challenging to do anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dyab0lix said:

Should 100% be a wipe on release (or sooner, all these new mechanics would be much better with a clean slate).

 

Sure some will be annoyed they lost stuff, but if they like actually playing the game thats not the end of the world cause its a chance to play it again...

On release for sure.  If it fixes many (or even just a choice one or two big) of the issues that we are experiencing I would be on board for and maybe even encourage a clean slate and give it a fair shot. 

 

2 hours ago, Dyab0lix said:

existing players have a massive advantage on already knowing the game and will have a significant head start, so the elite will easily be elite again, probably more so.

But this line of thinking is also where the new grind on top of a wipe, even for release, significantly risks killing the game.

 

2 hours ago, Dyab0lix said:

The ones who would get really salty are probably the same ones who complain they are so end game they dont have anything challenging to do anymore.

I'll have to disagree with you there too.  I actually enjoyed mining.  Being solo with only one alt account had already been too much labor and time investment for me to get out of the game enough, but I was willing to chip away at it over the long term on my own terms.  I did everything I could to avoid selling ore to the bots and keep out of the main markets for selling my extras as I fiddled with the industry changes.  I've had tons of problems, of which I'm sure at least 80% were entirely my own fault, but I kept pressing on because I could see potential realized in chunks. 

 

Having to babysit a game is exactly why I don't install mobile games.  It is a major turn-off to pay for something that feels like a chore.  I quit playing WoW for the same reason, but I never bothered to tell them or interact with their forum community because I wasn't creatively involved. 

 

This project is different in many ways.  I came in knowing full well that I would have to start from scratch many times, even as a solo player.  I'm also bothering to interact on the forums, with the hope that NQ will address at least some of the issues.  I may also attempt some mirth along the way, so mind where you step.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didnt realise there was a page 2, and from reading it i seriously do hope they do a full wipe very soon.

 

Its gotta be near impossible to balance anything if theyre even considering anyone that has 60 alt accounts... thats just rediculous. No one is going to pay to have that on release so why have it in testing/build phase skewing all the data?

 

With power players like that, likely teamed up in orgs, they wouldnt even be getting real world data to make any informed decisions for updates and fixes, and are trying to balance a game that obviously isnt going to be the same balance of players when its released... thats just crazy to me.

 

 

Edited by Dyab0lix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Dyab0lix said:

I didnt realise there was a page 2, and from reading it i seriously do hope they do a full wipe very soon.

 

Its gotta be near impossible to balance anything if theyre even considering anyone that has 60 alt accounts... thats just rediculous. No one is going to pay to have that on release so why have it in testing/build phase skewing all the data?

 

With power players like that, likely teamed up in orgs, they wouldnt even be getting real world data to make any informed decisions for updates and fixes, and are trying to balance a game that obviously isnt going to be the same balance of players when its released... thats just crazy to me.

 

People talk a lot about balance, but balance isn't really the most important thing. Games can be highly engaging while being rather unbalanced. Balance is an obvious thing to talk about, but what would DU look like if it were perfectly balanced...? 

 

It might be better, but not by that much. With the features it has, it being unbalanced is hardly the biggest concern. I'm not saying it's unimportant....but if you imagine DU today being perfectly balanced....it still will lack gameplay depth and will still have core design issues that will be difficult to solve. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

People talk a lot about balance, but balance isn't really the most important thing.

You don't balance before you get at least 80% of intended features working most of the time.  Yet another sign of working without a clear goal I guess?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A good example of how unimportant balance is can be seen for over a decade in World of Warcraft, where every class with a skill is sometimes pushed way up or nerved deep into the abyss.
Players spent weeks and months creating countless twinks for every occasion to cover many or all classes and be prepared for the constant changes. 
The worst thing I felt in WoW was that they kept changing each class and their unique playstyle, so you felt like you were playing something else, just not your class that you had chosen just because of the playstyle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WoW is probably one of the worst examples.  They had a rabid fanbase long before that game launched, and very little competition when they started it.  Balance is a polish step and sometimes for troubleshooting.  It should never be the lead action in designing part of a product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just meant if they are making significant game design changes like hq tile limits and taxes with the intent of limiting people hoarding tiles/reducing massive wealth... surely the amount of accounts people are using would be a significant factor.

 

If that 60 account thing is even half true, theyre basing mechanics on players that are literally 30x that of a regular player.... of course that 1 person would be combining the quanta from their multiple accounts, so the money they are seeing at the top isnt realistic to what someone with a paid account would have and shouldnt be a driver for major game changes... 

 

Thats what i was meaning about "balance", but maybe "balancing" would have been a better choice of words. From what I gather there were lots of exploits/quick riches early on too when the game was quite different, so using the same beta test accounts (thats what we are right now) is so very detrimental to the test results.

 

If someone told you to run some tests on a new system with old data from a different system, you probably wouldnt expect great results.

 

 

 

Edited by Dyab0lix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/17/2021 at 3:32 AM, Dyab0lix said:

I didnt realise there was a page 2, and from reading it i seriously do hope they do a full wipe very soon.

 

 

You seem like the kind of guy that doesnt need voxelbuilding in this game.

Do you have a DU creators page? I would like to see what builds you want to wipe.

 

Or maybe understand why some dont want a wipe. Has nothing to do with money!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2021 at 3:03 AM, Aaron Cain said:

They should have never called this phase a beta with so many game changing alterations, features getting canned, features we would nevernevernever get getting installed, stuff like that.

Its still alpha in everything but the name. Release it now and you will get what you can expect, total cancellation within a year, bankruptcy of a company. On a good point, it was always said that on release backers could get their money back when delivery of game was not what they hoped it would be.

Does this mean if they don't add the promised pets we get our money back?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/16/2021 at 2:22 PM, Dyab0lix said:

Should 100% be a wipe on release (or sooner, all these new mechanics would be much better with a clean slate).

 

Sure some will be annoyed they lost stuff, but if they like actually playing the game thats not the end of the world cause its a chance to play it again... existing players have a massive advantage on already knowing the game and will have a significant head start, so the elite will easily be elite again, probably more so. 

 

The ones who would get really salty are probably the same ones who complain they are so end game they dont have anything challenging to do anymore.

Completely disagree for a number of reasons, primarily based on the fact people are paying a monthly fee. 
 

Second reason being it makes no sense to reverse tile abandonment for solo-owned tiles. Why keep those around if there is an impending wipe.

 

Your rationalization of getting to play through again is just mental gymnastics. DU is a sandbox MMO. People play these games at their own pace in their own way. There is no playing through experience. It is building up and establishing your foothold in your own way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/18/2021 at 6:22 PM, Sabretooth said:

You seem like the kind of guy that doesnt need voxelbuilding in this game.

Do you have a DU creators page? I would like to see what builds you want to wipe.

 

Or maybe understand why some dont want a wipe. Has nothing to do with money!

Exactly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/17/2021 at 8:06 AM, blundertwink said:

 

People talk a lot about balance, but balance isn't really the most important thing. Games can be highly engaging while being rather unbalanced. Balance is an obvious thing to talk about, but what would DU look like if it were perfectly balanced...? 

 

It might be better, but not by that much. With the features it has, it being unbalanced is hardly the biggest concern. I'm not saying it's unimportant....but if you imagine DU today being perfectly balanced....it still will lack gameplay depth and will still have core design issues that will be difficult to solve. 

 

 

The beauty of DU is that there are no classes and so no real balance. There is no RNG. It is just math.

 

The closes anyone gets to RNG is the path one might take when scanning tiles and that is just individual luck and effort (how many tiles do you scan).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...