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Pay To Win?

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Quick point of personnel privilege... - DSA

 

18 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

They think fuck this, go market and buy a stupid amount of DACs. Offer any1 and everyone stupid smart deals, to get hold of blue prints and materials. You now have gone from needing 100+ active men, to about 10

Huh, so someone who made some money comes across a job they don't like dealing with, therefore they purchase the time of someone that likes dealing with that problem, and exchanges their time for money. Sounds kinda like capitalism to me... Those people with the DAC's found people with the blueprints and materials, both sides traded for the things that they wanted all supply and demand like, and went on their merry way.

 

What's the first thing that comes to mind when I think 'capitalism'?

 

1024px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png?u=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fa%2Fa4%2FFlag_of_the_United_States.svg%2F1024px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png&q=0&b=0&p=0&a=0

 

Oh, and that whole going from needing 100 people to 10, it's kind of like how farming changed with the advent of technology and the ability to specialize your trade. Food, water, shelter, once you've accounted for the basics, people can afford to branch out. 

 

16 hours ago, DvS_UK said:

also, from what i hear Dacs will be in your inventory, making them bartable, which opens up questionable moral implementations as well as p2w

I have space drugs, you have money.

I have an exotic alien body, you have money.

I have a heat ray, you have a heck of a lot of money (see above flag).

 

People have done worse things for money, much, much worse things that I can't describe on this forum. Your moral implementations aren't as big as they seem.

 

16 hours ago, DvS_UK said:
 

as mentioned previously, Slavary. Someones whos choices are stop playing the game or work for some.. leaving the soul with little to no choice, which is degrading. Not to mention it doesnt benifit any1 if they do stop playing, in the long run. It's a callous model that favours making money rather than immersve game play.

 

like i get that everyone would rather play for free, which makes these Dac the only thing worth.. well anything!! which is why its so broken

Slavery won't even be much of an issue in DU. Find something you like and go after it. Someone forces you into submission, log off and play something else for a half hour then log back in. If they don't get bored, respawn and try to avoid those players/org.

 

If you don't have a choice in what you're doing in the game, then are you even playing the game?

 

DAC's are only worth as much value as people give them, if they are worthless (see PLEX) then is it pay2win?

 

14 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

ok i went wrong with no3. i was under the impressions the bots are only here for beta/alpha. making it not so bad,  i wont lie. still pretty damn bad though.  I highly recommend they do away with that, because someone can get rich by doing nothing but spending money.. which allows them to buy anything off of the market and hire people to do their bidding. all things like that should be earned the good old fasion way.  has to be a better way.

 

so my understanding is pretty sound, and this does infact fall under the p2w category. I dont know what they should replace it with, but it needs replacing imo

 

i wont be supporting that, and after my 3 coupons are done im out. 

 

2 years after predicted lunch announcing it'll be 4years after predicted launch. my alarm bells are well and truly ringing.

 

if they keep it as it is, which im 100% sure they will because its a money maker.. and well, thats all that matters!!! am i right!

See capitalism which I mentioned in reply to the first quote.

 

Do you have any suggestions on what to replace the current subscription / DAC scheme (which sounds fitting in the context of the topic) with? If people pay once then never again, the game will die quicker than it would with a subscription. If they included a premium shop then they would need to keep coming up with new gear (and thus less time spent on the core game) for the shop to keep the money coming in.

 

Maybe in those three months you will have put in enough work to utilize DAC's and resources on the market to actually continue your subscription free of charge. Don't cut yourself short, but nobody is keeping you here either...

 

Game development is fun. Something tells me that the team was just a little too optimistic on that initial schedule though. Oh well, I mean, it's not the first time a set schedule for something has ever been pushed back now right?

 

I'm not saying that making money is the worst thing in the world. As an American, I for one would know that making money is pretty nice. You can buy what you want, travel wherever, enjoy a eight ounce medium steak dinner with fries that don't need ketchup. I like seeing the fruits of my labor. For NovaQuark, that means a game people are interested in playing, a technology successfully implemented into a game which allows that technology to be implemented elsewhere, game designers and developers that get to explore their passions and do what they love...

 

...So yeah, being a money maker is at least somewhat important here.

 

13 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

How many revenue streams would they have? So straight up monthly subscription low ball 50k players, cosmetics, advertisement and probably more I can't think of. You could argue it's a matter of volume. £20 would be hard to justify, even to a 50k playerbase. 

 

They need to do better. Eve is dead and is a niche game. DU is FPS mmo that could do waaay better. They need to realise their potential and not get greedy. 

 

People are ready with pitch forks waiting for stuff like this

 

Me being one of them!!  

Since EVE and 50k players is constantly being brought up in the context of this thread, I'm assuming we're talking about concurrent players as represented on the linked website. Since that website updates every half hour by the looks of it, I'm assuming this is players online at any given moment, not any larger metric like day, week, month, etc.

 

Sure, 50,000 unique accounts (unique accounts, not people) might not be much but you're looking through a fairly narrow lens. Consider all the people that might have an account, but just aren't playing at that moment. You can probably step foot in that universe and not meet the same person again for a fair while.

 

There's lots you can do with 50,000 players. Spread them out over a hundred systems, that would be five-hundred players each. Say five planets makes a hundred players per planet. Might not sound like a lot but a hundred people don't even need to be working together to make something fun happen on that one planet. Zooming back out again, that's 500 unique planets and a lot of space in-between. What can you do with all that? And we're not just talking about the same 50k players either, folks are constantly logging in and out, waking up, going to bed, returning from work, leaving for lunch, wiping the babies bottom and so-forth. Again, too narrow of a perspective here folks.

 

EVE is dead, yet they've been alive for over 15 years? Okay, what would you consider not dead? Also, DU isn't your typical shooter.

 

Send unto me these people with their straw hats and pitchforks, I wait for stuff like this!

 

11 hours ago, Venstix said:

Edit : To make it way clearer, a cosmetic shop would still permit NQ to generate Value without affecting the ingame Economy as a whole, because no Quantas would have been generated or lost to it.

To further this, NQ is only sticking to cosmetics because anything more than that would be pay2win, contrary to the argument that the OP is making where DAC's are concerned. Buying say a weapon that's 10% better with stat xyz for example, now you have a leg up on every other player that doesn't have that weapon, pay2win in it's simplest form, which is why we're sticking to cosmetics.

 

11 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

'Emotional noise' lol what kind of robot are you? What makes you perches most the things you own, mate?

It's an emotional subject for some, and a subject that shouldn't be taken lightly. So I'm sorry if you don't want to read through all the rubbish, to establish we both know what we're talking about.

 

 I've never wrote 'oi mate' but I get your point. Thanks for being smart

Oh lord, we're getting emotion involved? Okay I'm done, last quote then I'm out. If you're going to inject your emotion into this, well I don't know what you're expecting, but emotion makes people irrational.

 

That underlined bit right there is what the person you were replying to in that quote was referring to. Your condescending nature isn't winning you friends or changing minds.

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15 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Unfortunately I don't know how to quote property.

 

Hi @xlDvSlx, @DvS_UK,

 

I'm not going to get into the specifics of the topic, however as some have already suggested, please use the Quote system properly. It is indeed hard to see what you're responding to and to whom. 

 

Secondly, please use one account to continue to post your replies instead of using two accounts. It is coming across as boosting your thread activity (bumping - spam) which can lead it to be closed very fast.

 

Please use proper forum etiquette for everyone's benefit.

 

~ Meldrik

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Can appreciate the long replies. Still I see defending p2w with no recommendations of a better system

 

I don't know how you've all been conditioned into thinking DACs are alright. P2w should not be a thing in this game. 

 

I will campaign passionately against this mechanism of that you can be sure. One does not wait 4 years patiently only to find out this game will be a money grab upon lunch. 

 

I will take my review to YouTube and the like once the NDA is lifted. I will still give the beta to my friend but I will tell him straight this game is pay to win

 

 

I may sound condescending because I am. Any1 defending p2w needs to be shot down. Ruthlessly. I wonder how JC would defend this p2w model. 

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18 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

I see! Sorry I miss read your comment about 'the other guy (alt maybe)' loool horribly miss read.

 

so tell me where I'm going wrong and don't understand the system.

 

lets keep it real simple like. Simple yes if I'm right and a no with an explanation why I'm wrong

 

1.Dacs are brought out of game, with real life money, that will be visible in your in game characters inventory?

 

2.Dac can be used there and then to give you in-game time (a 1 month) or sold in the in-game market for in game currency? 

 

3. At first the only way to get in-game currency is through selling DACs? 

 

 

1. DAC's can be bought in the game for IRL money but they can also be bought with ingame currency.
2. A DAC is a whole month of gameplay and yes you can trade them for ingame currency but that's one own problem if they want to sell them.
3. DAC's are not the only method of earning ingame money. You can mine, trade, build, and loads of other things to get ingame money. 

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31 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

 

I will campaign passionately against this mechanism of that you can be sure. One does not wait 4 years patiently only to find out this game will be a money grab upon lunch. 

 

Mate, I'm probably one of the few here that's been here the longest, since before there was a forum, Kickstarter, or even a website about the game, but one thing is for sure, they've always been 100% clear that DACs will always be thing and buyable with RL currency. 

 

31 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

 

I may sound condescending because I am. Any1 defending p2w needs to be shot down. Ruthlessly. I wonder how JC would defend this p2w model. 

 

There's even an old blog with JC himself explaining why the company chose this model already. It's no one's else fault (and I'm not stating you are blaming others) for you not knowing about this before now, I've you've been here 4 years.

 

 

31 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

I don't know how you've all been conditioned into thinking DACs are alright. P2w should not be a thing in this game. 

 

As you already stated, you've made up your mind this game is pay to win to you, but that's not going to change the fact that well still be able to buy DACs with RL money and in turn sell them in game for Quanta.

 

Many have already tried to explain the checks and balances already set in place to prevent serious imbalance that could lead to actual p2w, but you chose to be a wall and ignore those replies. (Why make a topic about this then, if you've already made up your mind).

 

Anyways, I'll try to still mention that checks and balance again, in the hope of a better conversation. (Ultimately, how you reply to me afterwards will only show the purpose of this whole topic)

 

 

1. Yes, you'll be able to buy DACs with RL currency and sell in game

2. Yes, no one is denying the fact that a "space whale" "GTA shark" can buy thousands worth of DACs to sell in game

3. Yes, they can manipulate the in game economy this way (down or up - but is that the whole premise of "player driven economy?)

4. Yes, they can hoard billions, even trillions, of Quanta by doing this

5. Yes, they'll be able to buy hundreds of tonnes of materials and ores with that Quanta

6. No. They won't be able to do anything with that regardless because of the "talent system"

 

What use will people have with materials/ores they use because they are locked behind skills? You'll need years of skills to be able to masterfully use certain aspects of those materials.(industry professions) and even then... you can't be 100% proficient in all skills as that's impossible. 

 

Everything, from mining ores to crafting to building to USING elements (small, medium, large, XL cores) are locked behind talent systems. Yeah, I'll be able to have billions of Quanta by buying and selling DACs, but I'll have no proper use for it because of skills. 

 

I've tried to understand that your definition of "Pay to win" but it really isn't clear to me - thus I can't really say much more about it. 

 

If you're defining p2w as an economical advantage in regards to Quanta hoarding, I can see you point (but it can easily be refuted by the talent system as I've explained above)

 

If you're defining p2w as an logistical advantage in regards materials and ores, I can see you point (but again it's easily refutable by the talent system as I've explained above)

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Comrademoco said:

Mate, I'm probably one of the few here that's been here the longest, since before there was a forum, Kickstarter, or even a website about the game, button thing is for sure, they've always been 100% clear that DACs will always be thing. 

 

 

There's even an old blog with JC explaining why he chose this model already. It's no one's else fault (and I'm not stating you are blaming others) for you not knowing this before till now.

 

 

 

As you already stated, you've made up your mind this game is pay to win to you, but that's not going to change the fact that well still be able to buy DACs with RL money and in turn sell them in game for Quanta.

 

Many have already tried to explain the checks and balances already set in place to prevent serious imbalance that could lead to actual p2w, but you chose to be a wall and ignore those replies. (Why make a topic about this then, if you've already made up your mind).

 

Anyways, I'll try to still mention that checks and balance again, in the hope of a better conversation. (Ultimately, how you reply to me afterwards will only show the purpose of this whole topic)

 

 

1. Yes, you'll be able to buy DACs with RL currency and sell in game

2. Yes, no one is denying the fact that a "space whale" "GTA shark" can buy thousands worth of DACs to sell in game

3. Yes, they can manipulate the in game economy this way (down or up - but is that the whole premise of "player driven economy?)

4. Yes, they can hoard billions, even trillions, of Quanta by doing this

5. Yes, they'll be able to buy hundreds of tonnes of materials and ores with that Quanta

6. No. They won't be able to do anything with that regardless because of the "talent system"

 

What use will people have with materials/ores they have without being able to use them as they'll be be locked behind skills system. You'll need years of skills to be able to masterfully use certain aspects of those materials and even then you can't be 100% proficient in all skills as that's impossible. 

 

I've tried to understand that your definition of "Pay to win" but it really isn't clear to me - thus I can't really say much more about it. 

 

If you're defining p2w as an economical advantage in regards to Quanta hoarding, I can see you point (but it can easily be refuted by the talent system as I've explained above)

 

If you're defining p2w as an logistical advantage in regards materials and ores, I can see you point (but again it's easily refutable by the talent system as I've explained above)

 

 

 

I remember JC saying you can earn your subscription through game play, I don't remember him ever saying it'll be directly through a p2w mechanic.. untill I saw that video I posted on my very first post. 

 

Again, thousands of scenarios can play out. It's but pointless to try and list them all. 

 

You mention talents to counter the P2W mechanic they've implemented. I hate to go back to scenarios, but what if 2/3/4/5/6 orgs decide to battle it out for dominants for a planet. They will use there DACs to buy anything and everything they feel as though they need. 

 

It's not rocket science, if the game is PvP and people can buy an advantage, they will!!! This has been proven time and time again. Hence why they've even changed their game mechanics to allow for this filthy P2W model because they know it will be crazy profitable as soon as orgs start to go to war. 

 

Not to mention all the lazy scumbags who will just buy their quanta so they can do what eva they deem fun. 

 

No. We should have all the same grind, all the same possibilities etc etc without spending more money. Actual game effecting stuff. Which this clearly is. 

If some1 wants to have a cat or dog following them around everywhere, that's fine.. from a PvP point of view, that's pay to lose.. which I happen to be all for ;)

 

BigEdge tried to brush over the fact too, with the whole Talent thing, but once you have a well organised group of people, this mechanic will prove to be broken. Of that I have 0 doubts.  

 

But 1 DAC will help the economy out way more (I hear a misguided fool scream!!) Why is that?

 

 

If anything, mentioning the talent system has made me double down. They've actually changed in game mechanics to try and make p2w acceptable. Woooooow

 

How scummy. 

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3 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Any1 defending p2w needs to be shot down. Ruthlessly.

 

wow ..

 

This guy is clearly on a path to try and get himself kicked because he is breaking a number of forum rules. No doubt he will spin it as being silenced for revealing the fact that "DU is a P2W game" .. without ever obviously presenting a single piece of fact that supports that claim. Maybe it would be best to just ignore this thread from here. He will try and provoke but will either run out of steam or see the thread locked (at best).

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16 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

wow ..

 

This guy is clearly on a path to try and get himself kicked because he is breaking a number of forum rules. No doubt he will spin it as being silenced for revealing the fact that "DU is a P2W game" .. without ever obviously presenting a single piece of fact that supports that claim. Maybe it would be best to just ignore this thread from here. He will try and provoke but will either run out of steam or see the thread locked (at best).

Taking things out of context again lol how low delusional people will sink to defend what they believe. I didn't mean literally, but their/your argument needs to be shot down imo. Some of you can't even bring yourselves to admit it's a pay to win model. Boggles the mind

 

As a matter of fact you've added absolutely nothing to this topic. 

 

Everything that has been discussed here is in video form (made by NQ them selves) hardly a banable offence. 

 

 

Without any proof!! Why are you lying for and contradicting yourself in the same post! You say I have no proof, yet you go on to say I'm right and might call victim because I've called out their p2w model if I get banned.

 

I told you once if you can't keep up, don't step up. You're sounding like an idiot right now. Which I guess goes without saying because you're clearly in favour of pay to win

 

I've stated a number of times it's pay to win because of 'reeee reee reeeeeee' of which at least 3 people have confirmed. You being the forth. 

 

 

Care to add anything productive to this conversation/argument/campaign to remove pay to win?? 

If not, keep it moving. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Image result for don quichotte windmills

Ahh yes, the good old cult withdrawal. Is that Andrew Yang riding that horse by any chance?

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OK, so this is too much fun to ignore while it lasts.. so skip the ignoring bit.

 

BTW, I took the trouble of actually watching the video you seem to have gotten the idea from that NQ is admitting to having a P2W model.. Boy, you have a vivid sens of creative thinking coming to that conclusion from that video.

 

The context of the discussed topic in this 4 year old video;

 

Can you sell territory IRL for RL currency? 

 > would be against TOS (as it should be and I do hope NQ will crack down as hard on this as CCP does for EVE, meaning active investigation and insta-perma ban if caught)

 

Could you buy DAC to buy territory in game?

> Yes, but you can also make enough to do so in game, there is no absolute advantage to using DAC. Having the DAC mechanic also can potentially prevent RMT.

 

One thing that I simply do not get is what your definition of P2W is, it seems you think that as soon as I can spend any sort of RL cash to obtain in game currency that defines P2W, It is not relevant for you if by doing so I gain absolutely no advantage at all outside of having in-game currency in my account.

 

To me this one describes it best:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

And according to this definition I would question your ability to justify claims of DU being P2W,

 

Quote

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

 

 

Just to clarify, you in this context is not you as in xlDvSlx, but you as in the player buying DAC thinking that will give you an edge;

Buying DAC will get you Quanta in game. It will not make your skill better, it will not advance your talent queue. It will not improve your ability to build, design, fly or fight in any way. You can buy a ship in game you can sit in and fly but you will get your *ss handed to you by an experienced player very quickly if you take that ship into battle. In DU you will also need a crew to fly said ship and as you are more focused on getting the "kewl tools", it's less likely you have the social and communicative skills needed to get, keep and manage a crew.

 

To take the example from the video; you buy your piece of land using DAC you bought for RL  $$.. Now what? Your neighbor will just see the perfect opportunity to take it away with his in games skill set and well managed forces. Something you do not have as you only have a piece of land.

 

So no, DAC is not a P2W mechanic. Not that you are able to actually argue against this so you will probably just fall back on generic insults and attacking the person without ever actually bringing in a sustainable argument. You are the man on the horse and DAC are the windmills you are tilting. (and this time you is certainly xlDvSlx).

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Knew you had it in you X but do try and keep up

 

JC has said territories will be expensive to craft. If you can simply buy them with real life money, you're skipping a massive grind. Broken. Again you can dream up a number of scenarios where this could be good or bad. But the fact is, it's possible

 

Again we keep on going in circles with scenarios. The underlined fact is, you can spend real life money to get an advantage, how ever big or small. Whether it's a time advantage, player advantage, it doesn't matter. It's an advantage, = p2w. In a post I said if they make skins that can be brought and blend into something, it's pay to win. 

 

That video was the one where it all clicked together, not to mention I've been watching and reading a bunch over the last weekend, because the fooking servers won't up :P

 

I like how you've gone from, 'not a single argument/fact' to a 'sensible argument lol 

 

you're all over the place today mate, because I'm a funny guy I won't take the mik out of your multiple personalities ;) lol

 

 

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4 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

That video was the one where it all clicked together, not to mention I've been watching and reading a bunch over the last weekend, because the fooking servers won't up :P

 

Unless you are posting on a non Alpha account while you have an alpha account, whether servers are up is irrelevant as you do not have access anyway. But then it might be you just tripped the alarm..

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Starting to think you were dropped or something.

 

I've mentioned a few times now both are my accounts. To clarify, xlDvSlx and DvS_uk are both my accounts (for all those) 

I don't need to give my reasons, just know there was a mistake on my part. But I do have access to the alpha, granted not on this email address. 

 

There has to be a better way. Do you know what that better way is Blazemonger?

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As mentioned before, you may want to take this to heart;

"One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think your are right but not enough about the subject to know you are wrong." - Neil Degrasse Tyson 

 

Both your accounts are now set to ignore as the first ones for me to get that treatment. I do not have more time to spend on you as I have wasted enough already.

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3 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

As mentioned before, you may want to take this to heart;

"One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think your are right but not enough about the subject to know you are wrong." - Neil Degrasse Tyson 

 

Both your accounts are now set to ignore as the first ones for me to get that treatment. I do not have more time to spend on you as I have wasted enough already.

Arrh yes, Neil Degrasse Tyson. The mad who said SpaceX will fail, electric cars won't be a thing. No point in going to mars! That last one maybe an exaggeration. The man who is more an actor than a scientist, is being quoted by non other than Blazemonger looool 

ive enjoyed our time and I'm honoured. 

 

if you do find a better way, do stop on by and let us know 🤝🤜☝️🤘✌️

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Pew pew pew! I steal all yer ducks! Err... dacs!

 

Boy, I was unable to read this inflated thread completely, but I still want to add to the front that welcomes DACs being sold ig, oog and wherever people chose to wave them around.

 

It seems like all of this is based on the definition of pay to win. I read blablabla DACs ARE pay to win blabla that is FACT blablabla. But all I hear is...

 

 

DACs are not pay to win. You should get your definition of p2w straight before even continuing the debate. One side just claiming their interpretation being "FACT" doesn't help anyone and you can't discuss a matter if your terms ain't synchronized in the slightest.

 

To me "pay to win" is not synonymous to "pay for advantage". Pay to win implies that you need to pay in order to win. As soon as you can win without paying more than everyone else does for subscription, it's not "pay to win" anymore.

 

You brought up the example of GTA Online? Guess what - I paid for a shark card once to gift it, because I was stupid enough to blow a friends sale worth a million bucks and I wanted to make up for it. Otherwise I'm above level 200, got everything I want, can take up any challange I like - just from doing the default gameplay. That is not pay to win, even if the conversion of real life money to in-game currency is way more direct than selling DACs in DU.

 

As long as you don't acknowledge there's a difference between getting a (probably little) advantage with selling DAC in order to maybe speed up a win versus a title where you can only win in theory by playing, like all those "free to play - pay to win" titles out there, I consider the claim DU being p2w rather offensive. All discussion with this completely being overlooked is futile to begin with.

 

By the way: if someone needs to get personal, I think that person should calm down, take a breath and consider the possibility of just being plain wrong. Nothing bad there - we all are at times. Just grow up ;) 

 

Edit, post scriptum

Could even think of DACs being the opposite of pay to win, because you can play to pay. Of course you'll need longer to achieve something, but do it long enough and (in theory, because we ain't there yet) you could win without paying anything. That's the opposite of the definition for "pay to win" where you can only win if you pay (more).

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Alright.

 

Things are getting a bit out of hand here.

 

@xlDvSlx

@DvS_UK

 

Thinking that the DAC system is "Pay to win" is your opinion and it's your right to think that way, even if many people here disagree with you.

However, it's strange that you start a crusade right now on the monetization model as you claimed to be a long time follower of the game.

If you are a long time follower, then you know we never hid what the monetization model was going to be and said it right from the beginning (the Kickstarter Campaign in 2016). If you disagreed on the monetization model, it would have been perfectly understandable to not support the game. Why starting a crusade on this topic now? If you realized what the monetization model was going to be just now or recently, then maybe the real issue here might be "this game is not for you".  In that case, please contact the customer support at support@novaquark.com for such kind of topic. The monetization model has been debated many times, and the Novaquark team has already explained in length why we were going with this one.

 

For the record, this monetization model has also been adopted by some of the biggest MMORPG, such as World of Warcraft (through the WoW token system, which is exactly the same thing as the DACs) and as far as we know, there hasn't been a huge uproar stating this system is "pay to win". The original definition of "Pay to Win" is the following: it implies you have a system where you can get a specific advantage only by paying. If an advantage can be obtained by playing the game, then, by the original definition, it's not "Pay to Win". Of course all is question of common sense and equilibrium here: if the way of obtaining the said advantage is grinding an incredible amount of hours, making it virtually impossible or irrelevant to get it by playing then yes, it might be considered pay to win in disguise. But we are nowhere near this situation in Dual Universe (or else, you're welcome to give very specific examples, and not vague assumptions. The examples you have given so far are just too vague to be considered as such). On the opposite side of the spectrum, the expression "Pay to Win" have been used and exaggerated many times over the years. There has been excess on both sides. 
 

In any case, starting to say "some people should be shot down", for whatever reason it may be, is a no go and a direct breach with the forum rules.

Also, resorting to personal attack and/or provocations toward those who don't agree with you is just an invitation for trouble and another breach of the forum rules.

 

This is the first and last warning.

 

While your post started in an attempt to convince people from your point of view (which is fine), it quickly escalated in provocations and nothing really constructive. So we ask you to change the way you discuss with other community members on the forum (stop being provocative), or your posting rights may be removed (temporarily at first, and possibly in a definite way if you insist in this behavior).

 

This topic has derailed enough and will now be locked.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

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