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Pay To Win?

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Skip to 37:30 for context

 

All things considered (and i know theres no 'end game' as such) if people can spend real money and convert it to in-game currency, that is broken. Even if the price in game will fluctuate and can possibly be worth less, it doesn't matter imo. Being crowd funded and all, just give the game free for a month and a set amount to buy the time coupons that ARE purchesed in-game with in-game currency. 

Baffles the mind

 

Can any confirm this is still the idea 

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5 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Works in eve since 15years, it survived ALL other MMOs

 

Yes it's still a thing in du and it's a good one too

It's not good. If they can't think of a better way, I can't recommend this game and I won't be subscribing. That is a fact! 

 

Pay to win can't be justified imo. So it's worked in 1 game! 

A game who's player base has been stuck at 20k/50k for years!! In many people's eyes, below 50k is classed as a dead game. 

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12 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

It's not good. If they can't think of a better way, I can't recommend this game and I won't be subscribing. That is a fact! 

 

Pay to win can't be justified imo. So it's worked in 1 game! 

A game who's player base has been stuck at 20k/50k for years!! In many people's eyes, below 50k is classed as a dead game. 

Ok, then don't do it. 

 

Eve has 50k continious players over 15 years, with about 500k subs inactive. Show me one other game with those numbers. 

 

Dacs aren't p2w per se. What do you think will happen if you spend 2000$ on lets say 100 dacs?

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Ok, then don't do it. 

 

Eve has 50k continious players over 15 years, with about 500k subs inactive. Show me one other game with those numbers. 

 

Dacs aren't p2w. What do you think will happen if you spend 2000$ on lets say 100 dacs?

Mate those numbers are shocking. I just stated that below 50k is a dead game. So they have some addicts left over who have claimed it as their homes, who have forgotten or simply don't care about the subscription. 

For an ambitious game, gunning for a 50k player base it not what I had in mind. 

 

Eve is dead, pay to win will kill this games numbers. 

In order to hit a massive player count number, they need to think of a better model and not get greedy. 

 

Buying DACs will give any1 a head start if you barter or sell in game. Spend £2000 in DACs and trade/buy what ever you want. It's broken and shocking it was even considered imo

 

Which is just as shocking is that people will try and defend pay to win!! Like wow

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The system isn’t pay to win. You cannot play without a subscription, which is what the dacs are. Having a large amount of money can’t win you the game. You still need to have skills, which you cannot buy, and a single player is unlikely to be able to make much difference even in an expensive ship without friends to back them. The subscription model makes it easier for players to join, because if you can’t affford the game you can play for free by making enough money in game

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1 hour ago, Lethys said:

Ok, then don't do it. 

 

Eve has 50k continious players over 15 years, with about 500k subs inactive. Show me one other game with those numbers. 

 

Dacs aren't p2w per se. What do you think will happen if you spend 2000$ on lets say 100 dacs?

Also I just had to fact check those numbers. 500k subscribers in 2010. In 2013 the number drop 290k. It's fair to mention this was the hay days of wow and other MMOs. When the subscription model was fairly common. 

 

Subscription count hasn't been made official since 2013, which speaks for it self really. 

 

Player count is readily available. Less than 50k players as far as my eyes can see. In fact according to 1 Reddit post. It peaked at 35k players!! I don't believe that but there you have it

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1 hour ago, xlDvSlx said:

Mate those numbers are shocking. I just stated that below 50k is a dead game. So they have some addicts left over who have claimed it as their homes, who have forgotten or simply don't care about the subscription. 

For an ambitious game, gunning for a 50k player base it not what I had in mind. 

Neither do they, a sub model is needed for du anyway. Eve was dead since 2005, still going tho.....and WAY more successful than any other MMO too. 

 

1 hour ago, xlDvSlx said:

Buying DACs will give any1 a head start if you barter or sell in game. Spend £2000 in DACs and trade/buy what ever you want. It's broken and shocking it was even considered imo

 

Which is just as shocking is that people will try and defend pay to win!! Like wow

Buying dacs for rl money give Nq more money than a sub. Then you can sell them on the ingame markets either via direct sell (fullfilling buy orders from ppl at a considerably lower price) or Setting up a sell order for a higher price, but you have to wait until ppl buy them. 

This will ofc change buy/sell margins and other adapt their prices too. Thus prices for dacs decrease because of more supply. Thus getting you less and less quanta for each dac. 

 

After say a month you sold everything and then you got 2billion quanta out of it. Now what? How is that p2w? What do you think you can "pay" in order to "win"? 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

The system isn’t pay to win. You cannot play without a subscription, which is what the dacs are. Having a large amount of money can’t win you the game. You still need to have skills, which you cannot buy, and a single player is unlikely to be able to make much difference even in an expensive ship without friends to back them. The subscription model makes it easier for players to join, because if you can’t affford the game you can play for free by making enough money in game

Hardly an argument you're making to be blunt mate..

It is a pay to win model because you can benefit in game with real world money. I know there's no end game as such, but the model falls under the category of pay to win. There is no arguing that FACT. 

 

Imagine now you have the sweatyest bunch of programmers all earning 60k plus a year. 3months into the game it all kicks off. 

They think fuck this, go market and buy a stupid amount of DACs. Offer any1 and everyone stupid smart deals, to get hold of blue prints and materials. You now have gone from needing 100+ active men, to about 10

 

Broken

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9 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Neither do they, a sub model is needed for du anyway. Eve was dead since 2005, still going tho.....and WAY more successful than any other MMO too. 

 

Buying dacs for rl money give Nq more money than a sub. Then you can sell them on the ingame markets either via direct sell (fullfilling buy orders from ppl at a considerably lower price) or Setting up a sell order for a higher price, but you have to wait until ppl buy them. 

This will ofc change buy/sell margins and other adapt their prices too. Thus prices for dacs decrease because of more supply. Thus getting you less and less quanta for each dac. 

 

After say a month you sold everything and then you got 2billion quanta out of it. Now what? How is that p2w? What do you think you can "pay" in order to "win"? 

 

 

I can appreciate it's a business as well as a games company. Like JC himself has said, 'innovation isn't cheap' 

 

The fact is, they've raised enough money to fund this games development. The subscription model alone will continue to 'support' them and turn out a profit. They plan on adding cosmetic which will also bolster their profits. All of which I have 0 issues with.

 

What I have an issue with and draw the line at, is when RL money can effect game play.

 

All I'm saying is there has to be a better way. They've recruited some of the best talent, even some from Eve. Sort it out and get this business/p2w bullshit out of the game

 

 

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1 minute ago, xlDvSlx said:

What I have an issue with and draw the line at, is when RL money can effect game play.

Ok then, but again: tell me how dacs are p2w in your opinion. What could you possibly do with lots of money what others can't do as quickly or good? How does that qualify to be p2w in the first place and how do you think it'll ruin the game? I'm genuinly interested in your opinion here - because just saying 'it's p2w reeeeeeeeeee' will neither change anything, nor will it get you anyone agreeing with you. So let's discuss 

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Ok then, but again: tell me how dacs are p2w in your opinion. What could you possibly do with lots of money what others can't do as quickly or good? How does that qualify to be p2w in the first place and how do you think it'll ruin the game? I'm genuinly interested in your opinion here - because just saying 'it's p2w reeeeeeeeeee' will neither change anything, nor will it get you anyone agreeing with you. So let's discuss 

Posted a scenario not so long ago.

 

*Imagine now you have the sweatyest bunch of programmers all earning 60k plus a year. 3months into the game it all kicks off. 

They think fuck this, go market and buy a stupid amount of DACs. Offer any1 and everyone stupid smart deals, to get hold of blue prints and materials. You now have gone from needing 100+ active men, to about 10

 

Broken.

 

This was just the first example that came to mind. You know full well what I mean

 

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19 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

Also slavery could even be a thing! Someone could offer a poor soul a 1month for 1/2weeks labour!!!

 

Loool

Actually you know what. I'm cool with it. Loooooooool

(Joking)

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51 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

They think fuck this, go market and buy a stupid amount of DACs. Offer any1 and everyone stupid smart deals, to get hold of blue prints and materials. You now have gone from needing 100+ active men, to about 10

If they go to the ingame market, they need quanta. They get quanta by selling dacs on the market. You got smth backwards there. 

 

Every builder can sell blueprints to anyone- why should others not be able to afford it? Ppl who work together will also have money to buy those BP. No advantage there. 

 

Yes, you would need less men to get the resources to build something, that is true. But then what? What do you want to do with all those resources? You still need men to man guns. You still need men to fly ships. You still need scouts, Explorers, crafters, repair ppl and logistics. You don't 'win', you just have more resources at your disposal with less manpower involved, but you can't compete in any way with a 1000man org 

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11 minutes ago, Lethys said:

If they go to the ingame market, they need quanta. They get quanta by selling dacs on the market. You got smth backwards there. 

 

Every builder can sell blueprints to anyone- why should others not be able to afford it? Ppl who work together will also have money to buy those BP. No advantage there. 

 

Yes, you would need less men to get the resources to build something, that is true. But then what? What do you want to do with all those resources? You still need men to man guns. You still need men to fly ships. You still need scouts, Explorers, crafters, repair ppl and logistics. You don't 'win', you just have more resources at your disposal with less manpower involved, but you can't compete in any way with a 1000man org 

You're trying to gloss over the fact that RL money effects game play. There go pay to win. You've just proven my point and i quote, 'If they go to the ingame market, they need quanta. They get quanta by selling dacs on the market'

 

also, from what i hear Dacs will be in your inventory, making them bartable, which opens up questionable moral implementations as well as p2w

 

so the only tap/faucet is for people to buy 1 months, making the in game market for people who buy more than what they need. This game is starting to sound like a scam if what you're saying is true.

 

Shocking. So shocking i think you might be mistaken 

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6 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

You're trying to gloss over the fact that RL money effects game play. There go pay to win. You've just proven my point and i quote, 'If they go to the ingame market, they need quanta. They get quanta by selling dacs on the market'

And you're trying to gloss over the fact that this money doesn't rly get them anywhere if you think a little further 

 

7 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

also, from what i hear Dacs will be in your inventory, making them bartable, which opens up questionable moral implementations as well as p2w

Example?

 

7 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

so the only tap/faucet is for people to buy 1 months, making the in game market for people who buy more than what they need. This game is starting to sound like a scam if what you're saying is true.

No, the normal sub is always an option and way cheaper. Dacs are only for ppl who want to play for free by earning quanta and paying their sub with dacs which they buy with ingame money 

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  8 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

You're trying to gloss over the fact that RL money effects game play. There go pay to win. You've just proven my point and i quote, 'If they go to the ingame market, they need quanta. They get quanta by selling dacs on the market'

And you're trying to gloss over the fact that this money doesn't rly get them anywhere if you think a little further 

 

that makes 0 sense. It either gives you an advantage or it doesn't. I think we have established it does, infact give one an advantage. other wise no1 would buy them. Shark cards from GTA online, earned over a billion $ in the first year, was it a good move?.. thats a matter of perpective. from a gameplay point of view, not 1 bit. from a business point of view, can we do it again??? 

 

 

  8 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

also, from what i hear Dacs will be in your inventory, making them bartable, which opens up questionable moral implementations as well as p2w

Example?

 

as mentioned previously, Slavary. Someones whos choices are stop playing the game or work for some.. leaving the soul with little to no choice, which is degrading. Not to mention it doesnt benifit any1 if they do stop playing, in the long run. It's a callous model that favours making money rather than immersve game play.

 

  8 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

so the only tap/faucet is for people to buy 1 months, making the in game market for people who buy more than what they need. This game is starting to sound like a scam if what you're saying is true.

No, the normal sub is always an option and way cheaper. Dacs are only for ppl who want to play for free by earning quanta and paying their sub with dacs which they buy with ingame money 

 

i dont understand. Can you elaborate some more?

 

like i get that everyone would rather play for free, which makes these Dac the only thing worth.. well anything!! which is why its so broken

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can you please quote properly? it's getting hard to read your answers....

 

51 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

that makes 0 sense. It either gives you an advantage or it doesn't. I think we have established it does, infact give one an advantage. other wise no1 would buy them. Shark cards from GTA online, earned over a billion $ in the first year, was it a good move?.. thats a matter of perpective. from a gameplay point of view, not 1 bit. from a business point of view, can we do it again???

it gives you the ability to buy resources or elements, yes. And no one ever denied that. so what? You're still one guy....or 10 guys as in that example from that other guy (alt maybe? ;) ). I already asked WHAT EXACTLY is your benefit there if you may have lots of resources/elements but you're still only one/10 guys - what do you "win" there? How does this mechanic (being able to buy resources) make you better/win the game? You still can't compete with huge orgs and you still can't raid them

 

54 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

as mentioned previously, Slavary. Someones whos choices are stop playing the game or work for some.. leaving the soul with little to no choice, which is degrading. Not to mention it doesnt benifit any1 if they do stop playing, in the long run. It's a callous model that favours making money rather than immersve game play.

and why would anyone accept anything like that? what do you mean by slavery? what are you talking about? 

I buy a DAC from NQ for RL money. I sell that DAC on the ingame market for quanta. You buy that DAC from the market. I get your ingame money and you get the DAC. You then use/consume the DAC right away and BOOM - you get 1month of gametime to your account. That's all there is to it - no slavery involved at all

 

57 minutes ago, DvS_UK said:

i dont understand. Can you elaborate some more?

 

like i get that everyone would rather play for free, which makes these Dac the only thing worth.. well anything!! which is why its so broken

you cleary miss the point about this whole system and you clearly are confuse about what a DAC is at all:

 

Du will be sub based (around 10-15$ per month). A regular sub, depending on how much in advance you pay will lower the $/month - so far, so standard. 

ON TOP OF THAT:

you CAN (not a must) buy ingame Tokens (DAC) for real money for about 18$/DAC - WAY more expensive then a normal sub. But I can sell those DACs ingame for ingame money (see above). It benefits everyone:

- I don't have to grind all those resources (because I'm lazy or whatever) myself, but instead just buy a couple of DACs with RL money then sell them for quanta - and I can do what I enjoy ingame with that ingame money

- You can play the game for free (no RL money involved on your part) - if you can just make enough ingame money to buy a DAC from someone ingame every month

 

I don't understand what you mean by exploits/slavery at all - this is not how this works

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Unfortunately I don't know how to quote property.

 

In that example it doesn't help much, but still helps and brakes immersion. Early game is where it will be the worst imo. Non the less, it's still pay to win. The simple fact RL money can effect game play is unacceptable. 

If news reviewers like YongYea get wiff of this, it's GG. Believe me I don't want that to happen. I've been following DU on and off since the 2016 E3 pitch. 

 

 

 Again you just keep on glossing over. I'm not sure if you've been in a productive argument before.. instead you continue to play these school games. I hope you have many people to play with.

 

Again. The Dac will be in your inventory, so not so much 'right away' or 'boom' 

 

Apperently you're the one who cant see further ahead. And frankly are sounding like a cult. 

 

Loool 'WAY' more expensive. It's £3 mate. Your bias is clearly clouding your judgement. I guess fools and their money really are easily parted. 

So for an extra £3 (if you buy in bulk) you can pay for peasants to mine for you. 

 

I'm sorry but I can no longer take you seriously. 

 

 

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Why post with two different accounts? Just to give the impression that "more" ppl are on "your" side? ok....

 

I tried to discuss with you and give you explanations - but obviously you're not interested at all in discussing this properly and you just want to go on with "reeeeeeeee, it's p2w". Fine by me

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Why post with two different accounts? Just to give the impression that "more" ppl are on "your" side? ok....

 

I tried to discuss with you and give you explanations - but obviously you're not interested at all in discussing this properly and you just want to go on with "reeeeeeeee, it's p2w". Fine by me

Loool yes, because clearly I was talking like 2 different people. If you must know, my phone and pc are on 2 different emails, I thought that's why my discord NDA hasn't been lifted. That turns out not to be the case. 

 

You've tried to justify p2w with childish insinuations that No1 will play with me. 

I'm calling out a major issue, with the aim to get something better. 

 

If you're happy in your little cult with a 50k player base. Carry on mate. 

 

Shocking if you're the best voice DU have. I'm calling troll and expect a NQ staff to confirm this.

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1 minute ago, xlDvSlx said:

You've tried to justify p2w with childish insinuations that No1 will play with me. 

Where did I say that? Never implied nor said anything like that 

 

2 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

 

Shocking if you're the best voice DU have. I'm calling troll and expect a NQ staff to confirm this

Well you don't rly Listen to any arguments nor counter ans arguments. You just keep on reeeeeeeing,  perhaps That's why you can't see what dacs are and mistake them

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Just now, Lethys said:

Where did I say that? Never implied nor said anything like that 

 

Well you don't rly Listen to any arguments nor counter ans arguments. You just keep on reeeeeeeing,  perhaps That's why you can't see what dacs are and mistake them

there's no mistake been made on my part. infact youve comfimed what ive said on a couple of occasion. 

 

hell i even stand by backing this game. at least ill get a year without the cancerus p2w model. if what you said is to be believed. frankely you havent countered my arguments either, all im reading is bahh bahh 

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9 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Where did I say that? Never implied nor said anything like that 

I see! Sorry I miss read your comment about 'the other guy (alt maybe)' loool horribly miss read.

 

so tell me where I'm going wrong and don't understand the system.

 

lets keep it real simple like. Simple yes if I'm right and a no with an explanation why I'm wrong

 

1.Dacs are brought out of game, with real life money, that will be visible in your in game characters inventory?

 

2.Dac can be used there and then to give you in-game time (a 1 month) or sold in the in-game market for in game currency? 

 

3. At first the only way to get in-game currency is through selling DACs? 

 

 

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