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First: This is a non-NDA discussion, so please do not reference anything in-game. Anything we say about the game needs to come from publicly published sources.

 

Now, people seem to want to attack my efforts to recruit for my org because they don't like my views on PVP. Let me say,

  1. You don't understand my view on PVP and
  2. IMO, you don't even know what PVP is.

 

Most of the time when we're talking about PVP, we're talking about PVP combat. There is also PVP non-combat. I played Entropia for a few years (and still have investments there). In that game PVP combat is limited to space and a few geographical areas on the ground of some planets and small arenas (I think only two planets have PVP combat at all); however, everything in the game is PVP. The whole point of the game is to take RL money from other players. That's the only way to win the game. If you don't do that, the game costs about $5 an hour to play unless you're sitting around doing nothing.

 

If you rode on my interplanetary taxi service, you paid me between 80 cents and a dollar per leg and that money came out of someone's RL pocket. With my investments there now, if you go mining or hunting on a certain moon, you are paying me RL money for use of the land (About enough to play for an hour once a year, but it's still RL money). That is also PVP.

 

What is not PVP, IMO is beating up players who, for good game reasons, are not prepared to defend themselves. This is no more PVP than beating up an old man or a child on the street is boxing.

 

It is this last point that leads me to the conclusion that open world PVP (combat and non-combat) doesn't work as game-play unless there is no other play in the game. If there is other play, people who are conducting that play will probably not be prepared for PVP. In some cases, the game-play itself will prevent them being prepared. The best example of this in DU is behind the NDA, but as a general example, a miner may be necessarily unarmed or too lightly armed to matter. I don't see that shooting him is PVP - just bullying.

 

Even if we accept by definition that it is, why do you think it's fun? I do think that players who find this fun have a mental illness issue and should seek help. Such players need to actually hurt someone to have fun. OTOH, it's fun to shoot NPCs like that - that's only slightly different from shooting targets and the NPCs are in the game for that purpose... the guy who's mining is not in the game for that purpose and you are actually hurting him. 

 

 

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So does Daphne hate PVP? Or even just PVP combat?

 

No.

 

I have played a lot of PVP. I mentioned Entropia above. I never did PVP combat there because it's too expensive ($2 per 5 shots from my space plane's guns just for ammo. There was a cost for degradation of the guns too.), but i did get shot down now and then since I was carrying people across PVP space. The shooters thought they were pirates, but I don't know how they were making money. I never carried anything lootable (except sometimes a pile of dung - surface harvestable there) and I advised my passengers to do the same.

 

What about PVP combat? I regularly play three kinds of PVP combat games. 

  1. RP games where combat is possible at any time, but moderated by rules of engagement to support the RP. This is mostly in RP games set up in Second Life (SL). The actual combat can be pure RP, RP supported by programmed RNG - some of which are very sophisticated, or actual programmed FPS mechanics (SL has many such systems created by players, including three that I created)
  2. PVP combat areas within an otherwise PVE game. The one I played most was Ashran in WOW. It's a really good game when both sides are working in teamspeak or similar and have good leadership. (And it's really boring when it's PUG vs PUG, lol). I'm an orc protection warrior and I mostly played with Hyrdra. Hail Hydra!
  3. Team combat games where combat can (almost) always happen and the play in between combat is either hanging out waiting for invaders or forced RP (i.e., RP involving a captive which the captive is obligated to go along with - this gives the captives team incentive to invade and rescue. It can be fun if both are into it and competent RPer - really dull otherwise.) This was mostly GE Gor in SL where each team has their own fortress in their SL region and the teams travel to other regions to attack them. The hosting region sets the rules. This uses one of the best FPS systems in SL (or an imitation with some small changes to the feature set).

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Why does Daphne think PVP combat won't be fun in DU?

 

First, for people who are in the game for PVP combat, I think it will potentially be fun. You'll have your character combat skills at the highest level you can achieve at the cost of every other non-combat skill and you'll be looking for a fight. You'll find each other. You'll conduct wars between the larger orgs and really put JC's single shard tech to the test. I might have a combat alt in a fighter in those fights. It will be a cheap, easily replaced fighter. Or I may just do infantry and have essentially no cost to rearm.

 

But for the rest of us - not so much fun. And if you're the kind of lose who goes for the easy kill rather then the good fight, I doubt it (or anything else in your life) will be much fun.

 

Why?

 

  1. It's leveled. We expect that that there will be character skills (nothing to do with player skills) that will be acquired by some mechanism (which may be under NDA and the actual mechanism is unimportant) that will contribute heavily to combat success. This is just like leveling in a game like WOW. WOW tried leveled PVP - it's in a now completely empty area in the Burning Crusade. No one goes there because leveled PVP isn't fun. I wandered in there (not knowing it was PVP) with a level 60ish character once and ran into a level 100 alliance guy. He killed me with one hit - no weapon. I didn't try to hit him, but you know very well that I couldn't have hit him. Leveled PVP didn't really work in WOW. Aside from that area (and open world PVP servers) when you enter a PVP area in WOW your are either required to be a particular level or everyone's level is adjusted to match.
  2. It's lock and shoot. This means you will lock onto a target by some mechanism. When you pull the trigger the game will compare your attack level with the target's defense level to decide the criteria for a hit and damage and then use  a RNG to determine whether there's a hit and how much damage is done. This requires little or no player skill. This is especially true in DU. JC has said in interviews that the single shard tech depends on a certain amount of desync to work. This means your client and even your server will not necessarily agree with the target's client and possibly server about where the two of you are. You can't do meaningful positional combat or determine a hit with a projectile or even determine a hit with ray tracing if you don't have consensus within the game about where the combatants are. The best you can do is to target the thing the shooter is looking at according to his client even though the targeted player may believe he's in a safe position.
  3. Many of us will not be able to have much (or any) character combat skill. DU is a game with other stuff to do. It's billed as a civ building game. Combat goes directly against building civ... especially in a game where the only way to end a fight is make the other side want to quit the game (cause otherwise they'll just keep rebuilding and coming back). But being a civ building game, some of us will be trying to build the civ - maybe most of us... and we need our skill points for other stuff. I'm a cargo pilot. I need whatever pilot characters skills are in game to be high. I hope high pilot skills will make my ship hard to hit, but there's no public info on that yet.

 

A consequence of all this is that some of the combat in DU will be high level players shooting low level players who can't dodge and can't hit if they shoot back. It's just like shooting the unarmed miner above. You can say, hire combatants... and that leads me to the next sub-topic.

 

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Why is Daphne planning to train her org for combat? Doesn't that make it a combat org?

 

No.

 

It's your fault actually. You're planning to hunt down my very expensive ship and destroy it. In some cases it's not because you want to steal my cargo but just because you want to hurt me. I wish I were being paranoid, but the debacle with my recruiting thread proves that I am not.

 

I wonder why all the PVP combatants exhort the non-combatants to hire protection and then when we do, they accuse us of hypocrisy? I think it may be that many would be PVP combatants are really just bullies. Yes, I do think most of you are just bullies. That's just an opinion. I think a lot of unkind things about people who have grown up under the current propaganda machines that pass for government these days. I even think humans in general are a blight on the world and should be eliminated. But none of that enters into this discussion. None of it is intended to insult you. It's just what I think.

 

My org will hire combat specialists - both gunners for the ship and "marines" to control any passengers that get out of hand and/or project force outside the ship if/when needed. I don't plan to need the latter, but I can imagine scenarios in which it would happen.

 

In A3 which will be have limited combat (That fact is public, right?), we will be training in a ship that flies like our actual ship but is cheaper to replace and limited to flying where combat will be allowed in A3. By Beta, I expect to have our actual ship armed and a crew ready to kick your butt if you want to mess with us.

 

I may also hire escort fighters, but I don't plan to train them. They will be hired from an org that has trained them for the task.

 

I hope that clarifies my position for any of you who actually care and weren't just trolling in my recruiting thread. If you have further confusion, you may ask here. I will try to read and respond to legitimate questions even if you're already on my mute list.

 

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1 hour ago, Daphne Jones said:

Even if we accept by definition that it is, why do you think it's fun? I do think that players who find this fun have a mental illness issue and should seek help. Such players need to actually hurt someone to have fun. OTOH, it's fun to shoot NPCs like that - that's only slightly different from shooting targets and the NPCs are in the game for that purpose... the guy who's mining is not in the game for that purpose and you are actually hurting him.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thusly I don't typically pay these sorts of hate threads; because it's typically a minority opinion.

However, to suggest that people who take PVP seriously and exercise their interests seriously have a mental illness is crossing the line by a fair bit. You are generalizing something that is completely unacceptable to generalize. God-forbid that people like to RP as crusaders, pirates, or any other "faction" that regularly exercises their right to PVP and enjoy it as well. Maybe people don't want to act as cargo pilots and want to be a soldier, mercenary, bounty hunter, etc; you are being incredibly insensitive towards what is for all intents and purposes, 1/5 of the community.

I don't condone the pollution of your recruitment threads, but don't expect people to be nice to you or respect your space when you insinuate they have a mental illness, are bullies, etc.

The result of PVP being one of the main pillars of DU is that any effort you make is a potential risk. If I knew that I wouldn't have to worry about being attacked by pirates or rival military factions when I send out a mining expedition, the game becomes substantially less interesting and more monotonous.

To address the skills comment, that is part of the understanding there are 5 pillars. PVP-ers are going to invest into PVP skills and you are not; why shouldn't they have an easier time in fights when you'll have an easier time with piloting, econ, etc? In addition to that, you state DU is "billed as a civilization building game," which is true. However, a quick trip to the DU site will show that within the same header is the phrase " Explore. Build. Trade. Conquer;" and frankly, what civ building game doesn't have some facets of combat?

There are a few ways to address PVP:

  1. Embrace it and carve a chunk out of the universe for yourself; whether that be allying up with PVP players and assisting them with logistics or being a general contractor and selling to everyone.
  2. Analyze where the "most volatile" of the community are/planning to go and fly the other direction.
  3. Complain and hate on people who enjoy PVP, thereby alienating everyone in that category and ensuring there's a permanent bounty on your head post-launch.

I've heard you like to block people, so block me if you want; my opinion is my own and just as I have afforded you, I am entitled to it. However, I will be touching on this side of anti-PVP in a more public manner sometime soon, so perhaps we'll see some more civil discussions about the like/dislike of PVP.

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3 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

I doubt it (or anything else in your life) will be much fun

I doubt you know what's fun for me or not, tyvm. 

 

3 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

It's leveled

 

3 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

It's lock and shoot. 

Du isn't wow, it's more like eve in that regard. Some can't even hit a frigate there even though it's leveled too....and some hit it very well. Why? Because this kind of pvp isn't so much about player skill (hitting, doing dmg, all that stuff) but more about tactics and understanding mechanics to use them to get an edge. Everything else is leveled ofc, because it's only computed values. And skills or levels don't rly add that much to anyone char either. It's not wow, again. Skills give you an edge and an advantage, but never stop anyone from hitting you entirely. 

4 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Many of us will not be able to have much (or any) character combat skill

Non issue. If you don't want to train such skills, fine. But thats not an argument in any way. I for example won't have ANY building, mining, crafting skills (if I play DU At all that is). And plenty of ppl will have combat skills too because they want to experience stuff and not fall asleep from boredom (bam, thats my assumption xD)

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Exactly. You will specialize in beating up players who can't defend themselves from you. Don't know why that's fun for you (and don't care). Won't be fun for your victims.

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The very same people who are mining will also be engaging in PvP looking to hunt down mining rigs. I am one of those people.

 

Matter of fact I will be engaging in all those pillars of gameplay that DU has mentioned. And I know the vast majority of the player base will as well

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8 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Exactly. You will specialize in beating up players who can't defend themselves from you. Don't know why that's fun for you (and don't care). Won't be fun for your victims.

Then please don't "beat" me up ingame with your market skills either. Cause That's pvp too and I can't defend myself. And it's not fun for me 

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One crucial element people are forgetting is orgs and alliances. NQ has emphasised the notion that this game will be very difficult for someone to solo so most players will belong to and org and possibly an alliance of orgs. In that case, the guy mining will probably be mining for the benefit of his org/alliance who need resources to build ships, bases, gates, etc.

So more often than not, when you attack a player, you will be attacking an org. That's where things get complicated. Are your orgs friendly in which case you broke a treaty and caused a headache for the leadership. If you're orgs aren't aligned one way or another or hostile to each other, you could trigger a war. Additionally, you could end up with a bounty on your head. Not a fun thing if the person paying for the bounty puts out multiple consecutive bounties. Trust me. You don't want 100s of players killing you over and over and over again.

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11 hours ago, Lethys said:

Then please don't "beat" me up ingame with your market skills either. Cause That's pvp too and I can't defend myself. And it's not fun for me 

I'm actually very gentle in my market play, lol. I do try to give value for the profit I receive. One thing I don't like about Entropia is that I was taking real money, but only providing in-game service.

 

I think that' s what annoys me most about PVP combat players. They just take. I don't think I've ever met one (outside of serious RP settings) who thought about the value he was providing to his opponent except for the ones who smugly pretend that  providing content is why they're doing - that's easily recognizable as the basic bully attitude, e.g., "I only hit her and broke her arm because she likes it rough."

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1 minute ago, Holylifton said:

. Trust me. You don't want 100s of players killing you over and over and over again.

Been there done that and I didn't even do anything to deserve it and your right... you don't want that.

 

(I was crew on a ship whose owner foolishly decided to let pirates use it when we weren't using it. I was  never crewing when they were using it.)

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23 hours ago, Chief said:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thusly I don't typically pay these sorts of hate threads; because it's typically a minority opinion.

However, to suggest that people who take PVP seriously and exercise their interests seriously have a mental illness is crossing the line by a fair bit. You are generalizing something that is completely unacceptable to generalize. God-forbid that people like to RP as crusaders, pirates, or any other "faction" that regularly exercises their right to PVP and enjoy it as well. Maybe people don't want to act as cargo pilots and want to be a soldier, mercenary, bounty hunter, etc; you are being incredibly insensitive towards what is for all intents and purposes, 1/5 of the community.

I don't condone the pollution of your recruitment threads, but don't expect people to be nice to you or respect your space when you insinuate they have a mental illness, are bullies, etc.

The result of PVP being one of the main pillars of DU is that any effort you make is a potential risk. If I knew that I wouldn't have to worry about being attacked by pirates or rival military factions when I send out a mining expedition, the game becomes substantially less interesting and more monotonous.

To address the skills comment, that is part of the understanding there are 5 pillars. PVP-ers are going to invest into PVP skills and you are not; why shouldn't they have an easier time in fights when you'll have an easier time with piloting, econ, etc? In addition to that, you state DU is "billed as a civilization building game," which is true. However, a quick trip to the DU site will show that within the same header is the phrase " Explore. Build. Trade. Conquer;" and frankly, what civ building game doesn't have some facets of combat?

There are a few ways to address PVP:

  1. Embrace it and carve a chunk out of the universe for yourself; whether that be allying up with PVP players and assisting them with logistics or being a general contractor and selling to everyone.
  2. Analyze where the "most volatile" of the community are/planning to go and fly the other direction.
  3. Complain and hate on people who enjoy PVP, thereby alienating everyone in that category and ensuring there's a permanent bounty on your head post-launch.

I've heard you like to block people, so block me if you want; my opinion is my own and just as I have afforded you, I am entitled to it. However, I will be touching on this side of anti-PVP in a more public manner sometime soon, so perhaps we'll see some more civil discussions about the like/dislike of PVP.

I've had you blocked so long I don't even remember why. I'm pretty much giving everyone a pass on that for this thread.

 

I stand by the idea that if people who enjoy hurting other people are mentally ill. I don't think that's a minority opinion and I don't think dislike of unrestricted  PVP combat is a minority opinion. Most of us just tolerate it as a necessary evil to build a game if you can't afford good NPCs and mobs.

 

As I said above, I play PVP both non-combat and combat. I just don't like unrestricted PVP combat in a game that has other things to do.

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19 hours ago, Waffle Boy said:

The very same people who are mining will also be engaging in PvP looking to hunt down mining rigs. I am one of those people.

 

Matter of fact I will be engaging in all those pillars of gameplay that DU has mentioned. And I know the vast majority of the player base will as well

Everyone will be mining, so of course PVP combatants - legit and bullies - will be mining.

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On 1/1/2020 at 9:13 AM, Daphne Jones said:

 I do think that players who find this fun have a mental illness issue and should seek help.

@Daphne Jones As a person with a "mental Illness" I find you throwing the term "Mental Illness" around like you do VERY hurtful! You are "hurting" me by throwing those words around! I am a high functioning autistic person I have Asperger's Syndrome. I DON'T PVP! But when i do I am not as good as others because of my "mental Illness" which causes me to be slower on reacting in PVP situations! I formerly request that you don't throw the words "mental Illness" around OR label the completely NORMAL people that DO PVP with those words! Those words are very demeaning! I know for a fact that I am NOT the only disabled person playing DU, these other players may take your words very hurtful as I do!!

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2 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

I've had you blocked so long I don't even remember why.

The only time I've mentioned you besides this thread was to say you "don't have any license to disparage people for complaining about something," which I still stand by. I hope you didn't find that block-worthy, because my god, that's blowing it way out of proportion. Either way, thanks for giving me more content.

2 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

I stand by the idea that if people who enjoy hurting other people are mentally ill.

Genuinely, this sort of thought process makes you one of the most unlikable people I've ever had the displeasure of sharing a community with and is absolutely a minority opinion.

2 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Most of us just tolerate it as a necessary evil to build a game if you can't afford good NPCs and mobs.

You clearly aren't tolerating it, because if you truly tolerated PVP, you wouldn't make comment after comment after comment slamming PVP and those who enjoy it. You're sort of missing the "without interference" aspect of tolerance.

Frankly, at the end of the day, you'll just feed the system you so vehemently hate on; and we'll all be sure to hear you complain about it when it happens.

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Hi everyone.

 

As some of you may wonder why this topic has been locked, here are some clarifications:

As much as it is unacceptable to spam/derail an org recruitment thread just to taunt/harass the one who posted the said thread, it's also unacceptable to start a forum thread with the global idea of "You don't know what PvP is, let me teach you" (because this is how it can be interpreted). It's a highly provocative way of starting a discussion (whether it's intentional or not), and it clearly does not invite to constructive replies.

 

@Daphne Jones
You should really have stick to your point 1 (explaining what is your vision of PvP is totally understandable) and refrain of posting your point 2 (even if you put "imo").
PvP vision varies from one player to another. You have a vision of PvP. Other players may have a different one. Don't put all PvP Combat players in the same bag and give them the nastiest intentions they don't necessarily have, or it will become a self fulfilling prophecy: if you put everyone in the same bag, why would they act differently as you already put them in the same category? If you want to unify them against you, you're indeed using the best manner to achieve this goal. If it's not your goal, now is probably the time to reconsider how you communicate with them. Furthermore, we already asked you to stop provocating PvP players by calling them "sociopaths". Calling them "mentally ill" fall in the same category. It's just as provocative as PvP players calling "Carebears" those who are not interested in PvP. 

 

This is a the second warning (for people from both sides). Next time, we will start give temporary forum bans (and permanent ones if a temporary ban doesn't prove to be enough to some people involved). 

 

We are totally aware that on some other game forums, it's something normal to taunt each other, and "bathing in carebear tears" is a common activity. This might be a deliberate choice and/or became one goal of those forums. We won't judge or comment on this topic here. It's a choice like any other and the dev teams are entitled to manage their platforms as they see fit.

 

That's why we will give here a clear reminder of what is exactly the current goal of the official Dual Universe forum:
As stated in the forum rules, you're not supposed to be provocative, meaning: this forum is a neutral ground. This is a platform to have constructive discussions to help improving the game, not to impose one's vision and/or denigrating others' visions. You are free to expose your vision, of course, but not to attempt enforcing it by denigrating the others.

 

You may also have some (in-character or out-of-character) grudges with some community members, but if this is the case you're expected to leave all this at the forum's doorstep. If it's too difficult, just ignore the people you don't like and don't reply to their topics. Don't start provocations or add oil on an already existing fire, or you might be affected by moderation actions (even if you're not the one who started the trouble).

 

We hope you'll understand Novaquark's stance on this matter.

 

One final note regarding the narrative that "PvP Players will hunt players who are completely unprepared" is kind of a biased way of presenting the real situation: 

Players not interested in PvP will have safe zones where they will be able to have various activities without risking being bothered by PvP Combat players. If they want to explore outside of the safe zones, they are implicitly accepting the risks and should prepare accordingly. If they don't, and get caught, it's on them. If they don't want to take any risk of being engaged in PvP, then they shouldn't go outside of the safe zones. On the opposite, if they're taking risks and prepare accordingly, bigger rewards will await for them. In the end, it's their choice, and the choice they made comes with consequences. Because players will have a choice, it's not accurate here to say that PvP Combat will be "non-consensual". On that topic, Dual Universe is already far more Non-PvP friendly than games like EVE Online (where you have to explore space even to mine the most basic ore, and where you can be attacked).

 

Best Regards,
Nyzaltar.

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