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Safe Zones

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4 hours ago, Borb_1 said:

I appreciate the logic of how you are classifying.

 

Just to be clear, Dual Universe game world is IMMENSE. It's like nothing else (apart from EVE but then that works according to your model with it's sec status).

 

Instead of this classification (incidentally PvE is incorrect as that's player vs mob_AI. It's P+E as players scan, mine, purify, haul, make, combine, design and build using all the materials by voxel and other game systems. Also your category is an old-throw back to MMORPGs where you have a dislocated game system full of non-interacting sub games.

 

Let's think of DU as a pyramid for convenience: Base = Voxel World. Next = P+E (civilization building activity based off the base). These whatever anyone thinks of the design now, will be the largest by far segment of population numbers, just as you find in population pyramids in ecology. And using this classification , you have above this combat system: Much smaller by proportion but still likely very popular (I think space battles are going to be a sight to see). As Blasé (I mean Blazemonger!) says, the design of the mechanics will happen in Alpha 3. The scenarios of how combat happens in Beta. In that time we'll see a lot of different scenarios zoom in on an optimal outcome for release for that pyramid to retain it's correct shape. Be that safe zones, economy functionality, server load, player distribution and of course the development of large player orgs, new systems themselves. The most interesting of all perhaps.

 

TL;DR: It's a misconception though correct logic within that to describe as 2 pots, 1 larger than the other. It's a Pyramid of interacting layers by population numbers and the energy flow between those layers. It's 1 consistent thing. Some layers may never interact with other layers, but indirectly all layers interact.

Great post and really well put. The large world will help, but i still disagree on the principal. Mostly because what you are classifying as P+E gameplay, in du with the current described way of handling where you can PvP, are actually P+E + PvP. There is no safe mining, there is no safe scanning, there is no safe hauling. And if you want the things you design and build to be usable in 99% of the game world, pvp must be considered when building and designing. To me what you are describing is a game world much more similar to what I am saying DU should be. Simply put a game world where the game loop can be satisfied without PvP. As it currently stands whatever form pvp may take it will be rooted in every P+E element you mentioned because of the fact that there are virtually no safe zones. The open world PvP style forces PvP in to the game loop. 

 

I guess my question to you is. If you see the game world as the pyramid you describe, why have the game world as PvP with P+E zones, and not the opposite?  Why force the PvP in to the P+E game loop?

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7 hours ago, ostris said:

Great post and really well put. The large world will help, but i still disagree on the principal. Mostly because what you are classifying as P+E gameplay, in du with the current described way of handling where you can PvP, are actually P+E + PvP. There is no safe mining, there is no safe scanning, there is no safe hauling. And if you want the things you design and build to be usable in 99% of the game world, pvp must be considered when building and designing. To me what you are describing is a game world much more similar to what I am saying DU should be. Simply put a game world where the game loop can be satisfied without PvP. As it currently stands whatever form pvp may take it will be rooted in every P+E element you mentioned because of the fact that there are virtually no safe zones. The open world PvP style forces PvP in to the game loop. 

 

I guess my question to you is. If you see the game world as the pyramid you describe, why have the game world as PvP with P+E zones, and not the opposite?  Why force the PvP in to the P+E game loop?

I suspect there very much WILL be safe scanning, mining and then building and so on. Remember how absolutely HUGE the planets are, even the smaller ones. Atm the idea of "safe zone" is just that. But it's not just safe and zone but an idea too, still. Until Alpha 3 and probably beyond DU very much will be a P+E game ONLY. Will we see an entire smaller starter planet as a safe zone? Maybe. We don't know and cannot say.

 

As to game loops, one of the ideas mentioned was that players CONTRACT JOBS to other players. Personally I don't want to build things, maybe tinker for fun, but for a serious design, I suspect some genius will be able to specialize at that far better. But I do want to pew-pew in multi-crew spaceships and help an enormous industrial complex of player orgs. I need to be paid for that competitive advantage and services. It's not going all be apocalypse now! during down time so remuneration for strong multi-crew formidable battle-class spaceships should be grand to pay everyone.

 

So with respect to PvP: It needs a tight leash, it needs tight integration. Given the idea of pyramid, PvP should specialize predominantly in the upper tier ie the more valuable and rarer ores that bequeath higher energy value (just as meat does to vegetation) but equally the proportions in the upper tier must be smaller in absolute numbers - considerably to the builders et al.

 

Some might argue why even bother with PvP: It's a system that should feedback: The demand to colonize and explore and open up new opportunities and enterprises. As to wars: Formal system - afterall politics is just the emergent form from trade and organized conflict. We don't need civilians involved in large civilization cities. Just professional soldiers. On the outer rim - well wild west wildcats...

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Creating a notion that nothing will be 'safe', that the 'evil PVPers' lurk everywhere and that you will have to arm yourself at all times to be prepared for anything is a silly, nonsense and stigmatising attitude that will only cater to the very people you are afraid of will be predominant in the game. People need to create their own play styles and way of life in game, not one that i advance will benefit those that seek to only take an aggressive and destructive position.

 

As mentioned the universe of DU is huge and sure, the pewpew hungry will possibly initially have many opportunities to get their way, if normal and social playstyle is followed and maintained by the majority these will rather quickly become a factor yes, but nothing more than that. We all need to play the game the way we believe we should and forge alliance with those who enjoy a similar playstyle. That by itself will over time build a strong and sustainable model where we can all do our thing in relative peace with the occasional incident.

 

War- and Scaremongers should not be allowed to gain the upper hand and by nature those will often fall back to in-fighting and bickering between themselves, leaving the rest of the universe for us all to enjoy and explore.

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39 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Creating a notion that nothing will be 'safe', that the 'evil PVPers' lurk everywhere and that you will have to arm yourself at all times to be prepared for anything is a silly, nonsense and stigmatising attitude that will only cater to the very people you are afraid of will be predominant in the game. People need to create their own play styles and way of life in game

surprisingly true of the game of RealLife too.

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@blazemonger Once again you are attributing to me something i never said and arguing a point i never made. When I say the game wont be safe your response is essence is you probably won't die. Probably is not 0%. In other games you are 100% safe to mine, 100% safe to play the game loop(at least from other players). Not 99.99999% safe. I am not afraid of any type of player dominating the game. And never said i was. I'm "afraid" about the disconnect between the world NQ is putting out and the world I think they will get. The game can work with lots of pvpers everywhere or lots of p+e players everywhere. With things being safe OR nothing being safe. I'm ok with all of it. The game world should match the game they want to make. If they want it to be a civ building game first and pvp second then the game world should not be structured the exact opposite. PvP in 99% of the game world with small protected areas.

 

It is also odd to me that you accused me of knowing the pvp systems etc which i never said i did. My entire argument is games that allow open world pvp tend to be dominated by it and that runs against the civ style game NQ sometimes markets. That's the beginning and end of my argument, because as you stated we don't know anything else about combat. Your entire post, for it to be true, has to make huge assumptions about how game play mechanics work. You are assuming you can easily hide from those that want to kill you because the world is so large. You are assuming that the game play will support this style of game yet we know nothing of why it will be that way. This is YOUR argument, that I couldn't know the details of the pvp system. Yet somehow you KNOW you can hide. My point does not require any of this, it only requires the clearly stated position of NQ towards pvp and p+e zones.


@Borb_1 I appreciate the way you discuss things. As to your first paragraph, this would be the exact opposite of the stated position NQ has right now. They have stated if you want to gain something of value it must come with risk. The Moon Safe zones, clearly stated, will have NO resources in the ground and the arkship safezone is too small to be relevant in mining for the long term(i don't know if they have provided a clear answer to what resources will be in the arkship safe zone). What your saying in this first paragraph is pretty much what i am saying NQ should do to get the game you are stating DU is. Which is provide the complete or near complete P+E game loop to players with no threat of PvP. So i guess i kind of agree with this.

 

Neither one of you have actually answered the question I asked. You talked about why it SHOULD be the way you say. Why the mechanics of the game, that none of us know, SHOULD lead to the P+E base you say. The point I am making is if primary P+E civ building is the game NQ wants, why implement stuff that SHOULD make it that way instead of implementing stuff that DOES make it that way. This game is vastly different then other games so I agree none of us can KNOW how it will work out(keep in mind you are both saying this is a civ game as if you KNOW it will be). But the question neither of you answered, if you have the opinion that this should be primarily a P+E civ building game with a smaller PvP top:

 

"why have the game world as PvP with P+E zones, and not the opposite?  Why force the PvP in to the P+E game loop? "

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@ostris As I said:

6 hours ago, Borb_1 said:

Atm the idea of "safe zone" is just that. But it's not just safe and zone but an idea too, still. Until Alpha 3 and probably beyond DU very much will be a P+E game ONLY. Will we see an entire smaller starter planet as a safe zone? Maybe. We don't know and cannot say.

ps: I really like how slick and easy it is to use these forums!

 

As said, "the current plan/idea" may be moon safe space (both meanings 'area of space' and 'safe to be'). But it's just the current plan. Again by default the entire game will be P+E, until such as Alpha 3 and then that will be ratchetted in little by little.

 

As to "should" I can't speak for NQ or say what they intend. But partly the above space (design) is very flexible: From a tiny hex to an entire planet. But also they're communicating atst to 2 different groups: People who like building and people who like shooting. Even if the ratio is say 20 or more to 1: You're going to split your sayings exactly in half. to attract each group.

 

Think about some of the future far off planets full of "El Dorado". That is going to focus PvP (moths to a flame). The basic ores that everyone uses or needs, are going to be too plentiful to corner.

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9 minutes ago, Borb_1 said:

@ostris As I said:

ps: I really like how slick and easy it is to use these forums!

 

As said, "the current plan/idea" may be moon safe space (both meanings 'area of space' and 'safe to be'). But it's just the current plan. Again by default the entire game will be P+E, until such as Alpha 3 and then that will be ratchetted in little by little.

 

As to "should" I can't speak for NQ or say what they intend. But partly the above space (design) is very flexible: From a tiny hex to an entire planet. But also they're communicating atst to 2 different groups: People who like building and people who like shooting. Even if the ratio is say 20 or more to 1: You're going to split your sayings exactly in half. to attract each group.

 

Think about some of the future far off planets full of "El Dorado". That is going to focus PvP. The basic ores that everyone uses or needs, are going to be too plentiful to corner.

True, ultimately this discussion is hard because there really is no base to work off of, no existing exact match. I think I or place a lot of importance on the stated PvP availability and bias less PvP then more PvP, unless the dev is VERY committed to having heavy(widely available) pvp. Also i am very heavily referring to the stated final state of the game. you perhaps less so on the importance of PvP and are referring to the game as it is now? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I really hope it breaks down the way you are saying in the long term. I just hope NQ doesn't compromise game play to make it happen. This is my primary concern and why i referenced FO76.

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While I agree that space in DU is vast and there'll be plenty of territories and hideouts for explorers and builders to stay somewhat safe and do their thing plus real safezones (aka  MSA and ASA) it's crucial to state the facts, as of now, too:

 

- there  are moons (MSA) which are 100% safe

- there's the arkzone (ASA) which is 100% safe

- rest of DU is as safe as ppl want or make it (UA)

 

It's up to the players really what they do and if they police their territory or systems. But everyone should be aware that outside of MSA/ASA he can be attacked 

 

And yes,  Im only talking about physical PvP here 

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42 minutes ago, Borb_1 said:

But partly the above space (design) is very flexible: From a tiny hex to an entire planet. But also they're communicating atst to 2 different groups: People who like building and people who like shooting.

 

Your typo may make this more or less valid but anyway ;)

 

I don't think that is the case here. NQ has been fairly clear and open about their vision for the game. It's the groups of players who are already drawing lines in the sand as far as this  needs to happen or that needs to be done.

 

NQ intends to build a universe that provides us as players the tools to use and shape it as we want. They intend to basically stay out of what happens after they hand it over. Some seem to want to make this universe about war, violence and aggression while others seem to want to make it about building their dreams. Both will have to co-exist and while the worlds will be big for each to find their way, in some cases they will clash.

 

DU is not about either, it is about building civilization and community. As such (and as I said previously) I believe that overall and in general combat will have a place and a time to be used. In the bigger picture though it will not be a major factor in the game but 'just' another factor we will need to take into account as we build our stories and lives in game. Pretty much like real life.

 

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My hope is that the size, scale and freedom of the game will allow for real world 'pvp'.  Peaceful factions will control some areas and those areas will be pretty secure, pirate / anarchy forces will create no go areas and there will loads of places in between. 

 

Become part of an org if you want security. 

 

I hope the community is left to police the game.

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13 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

I hope the community is left to police the game.

 

The community by definition can't be impartial and/or unbiased. In itself that is fine but it excludes the option of the community policing. I think those who hold territory will deploy and maintain security/law&order forces to uphold their laws and regulations. Outside of these areas it's basically a FFA/wild west environment.

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12 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

The community by definition can't be impartial and/or unbiased. In itself that is fine but it excludes the option of the community policing. I think those who hold territory will deploy and maintain security/law&order forces to uphold their laws and regulations. Outside of these areas it's basically a FFA/wild west environment.

That is my point though, the level of community 'policing' will be relevant to location.  If you want a peaceful life, side with a large peaceful org and live within their protection. If you want anarchy go live with the anarchists, and hopefully there will be lots of options in between.

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The key thing is that defence has to be strong, so you need to commit a lot of resources to attacking bases, particularly established cities.  That way people can choose to live within a certain amount of protection.  If people want to go live on the outer rim, solo or in small group, then they are hoping they dont get found and they should play with that in mind.

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On 12/9/2018 at 8:07 AM, blazemonger said:

PVP is part of that yes, but is not the main driver in my opinion. PVP as I see it will be a means to an end wit he purpose of settling disputes if all else fails. (source: the DU website front page)

Obviously there are multiple main drivers for the game, PvP isn't less than building and building isn't less than PvP.  Pretty strange that some people haven't picked up on that yet. 

 

PvP won't just be to "settle disputes if all else fails".  The whole reason there are safezones is because that isn't the case lol

 

Also from the front page:

"get ready to face players fighting for supremacy, resource control or geostrategic advantage. Space pirates raid lonely travelers, corporations steal from each other, warlords rain destruction and cities need the costly protection of dome-tech…"

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49 minutes ago, Hades said:

PvP won't just be to "settle disputes if all else fails".  The whole reason there are safezones is because that isn't the case lol

 

Here's what I said:

 

Quote

 Dual Universe is not an open world PVP game, it is an open world civilization/community building game. PVP is part of that yes, but is not the main driver in my opinion. PVP as I see it will be a means to an end with the purpose of settling disputes if all else fails.

 

Leaving out the first bit of a paragraph may be convenient but it does misrepresent the context and thus might invalidate your argument. The first part is a statement, the second an opinion. A mentioned source would be to reference a statement not an opinion. To then try and invalidate the source by referencing it to the opinion is rather silly and I'm pretty sure you know this but I'll give you credit for the attempt;) ..

 

Now that we're nitpicking anyway, your quote is not on the front page, it is part of a text which refers to a component of the game a few pages down. But yes, that really is not all that relevant so let's leave it where it is.. 

 

Obviously there will be an ongoing point of discussion and contention as some would like to see nothing more than PVP be the cornerstone of everything that happens in DU. And in all honesty, when taken in the literal sense, it will be really as nearly anything that happens in game will be one player's creation/service/business/action versus another. But I think we all know that that is not the angle generally used to consider PVP and most will just refer to PVP as in combat/aggression/violence. In that regard I do not believe PVP will be a predominant as some would like/hope for as it would basically turn DU into just another MMO shoot em up and we have plenty of those around.

 

And yes, the game webpage front page mentions 'conquer' as well, as a combination of factors "Explore. Build. Trade. Conquer." As such it validates (IMO) my point that combat is a part of the whole, not the pivot point.

 

IMO and unfortunately safe zones will be needed because there will be a lot of players out for just the pewpew, especially at the start of the game because at that point it's easy targets and easy money. It will be just too much of a temptation to pick off new players starting out before they get their grounding for many.

 

Personally I really do not care either way as I will be able to steer well clear of the hotspots and pewpew crews to do my business the way I believe I need to (together with my org mates). We will operate as we do in other universes; Never instigate violence, not support it, make every effort to avoid it but do end it (in our favor if at all possible) when we have to.

 

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6 hours ago, ostris said:

True 1), ultimately this discussion is hard because there really is no base to work off of, no existing exact match. 2) I think I or place a lot of importance on the stated PvP availability and bias less PvP then more PvP, unless the dev is VERY committed to having heavy(widely available) pvp. Also i am very heavily referring to the stated final state of the game. you perhaps less so on the importance of PvP and are referring to the game as it is now? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I really hope it 3) breaks down the way you are saying in the long term. I just hope NQ doesn't compromise game play to make it happen. This is my primary concern and why i referenced FO76.

2) Yes, see @Lethys post. Thing is, NQ have to say you could get pvp'd outside a few places where you're 100% safe. Because a lot of people from MMOs are binary about PvP and don't want to get burnt: 100% or 0%. Also the future ultimately is for player systems as per the vision statement so there's a consistency factor here. But that's why at the beginning, I would expect it NOT to be. With a small population, you have a skew on the numbers working correctly, the emergent systems are not developed and also need live play to actually behave "organically" without dev hard rules eg ark force field.

 

1) Yes again, it's too early to state emphatically, without falling into arguments about words and their legal meaning! ?

 

3) Players will want to build, probably in considerable numbers and that will shape the game's growth as well as the current design now. This is the future factor probably see more of when the server time increases.

 

Perhaps a tie-in between builders and shooters will be highly complex crafting supply chains and queues will make weapons and other battle systems for ships for pvp players? These will be much more complex 

 

Edit: Spoiler: A good story (fictional or fact it performs it's service) on the perils of an unrefined pvp system.

 

Spoiler

So I may be ranting here.
My day of playing Star citizen ended with me rage quitting.
It started with a hefty loss at Jumptown. Basically an unamed player waited for me to land spend enough credits to fill my cutlass then jump out from below the building and shooting me as I made my way to my ship.
That sucked.
But it's jump town. This stuff happens. Again it would have sucked a lot less had he shot me before I spent the credits. Or I had been the kind of player that when seeing someone running around outside Jumptown that would just open fire with their ship weapons. Because Jumptown. His boasting of his achievement in local chat didn't help much either. I spent some time searching for him in my scythe but could not locate him.
To relax I did a Kareah mission. Only to find there were 24/24 targets rather than 14. No matter I like this mission. Died half way through.
Jumped into Star Marine. Customised my load out to my own so I can practice and get better. Loadout reverts to default for 2 matches.
Head back to the verse. Try something safe and legal. Load up my cutlass with 70k worth of med supplies head to Levski... Mid jump I am shot, as I frantically try to get out of my seat (I was frantic, my character seemed very relax as his vision was covered in blood) before I can even draw a weapon I'm killed. Someone glitches into my ship at Olisar waited for us to leave the armistice zone and then killed me while I'm stuck in animation.
Had to step away for a bit. Did not feel good about the game at that point. 

 

 

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@blazemonger

 

Few things that seem a bit wonky about your post:

 

1.) I copied the entirety of your first paragraph.  And as such the entirety of that paragraph was taken into account.

2.) An opinion does not mean it is immune to attack.  You said PvP would likely be simply to settle disputes, I brought up clear indications that that won't be the case.  There's an idiom about wishes and dreams... wish I could remember it ?

2.) "Now that we're nitpicking anyway, your quote is not on the front page, it is part of a text which refers to a component of the game a few pages down. But yes, that really is not all that relevant so let's leave it where it is.." 

 

So, who gets to decide what's considered the front page of the landing page for DU?  Is it the funding banner?  Oh, maybe it's the DU logo. No no no, it's the animation.

 

Also, who gets to decide official word about DU that is irrelevant?  Hmmm.  If it truly is irrelevant, I think NQ would take it down :)

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@Hades

1. no you did not, you copied the second sentence only. I added the full paragraph in my comment for context.

 

I never said what you claim in your first point 2, I said "PVP as I see it will be a means to an end with the purpose of settling disputes if all else fails." There is no reference to that being simple, easy, irrelevant or unimportant.

 

Will there be people with different ideas? certainly and frankly I stated as much in the post you responded to so you should know this already.

 

I am not saying my opinion is right or wrong, just that that is my opinion. One does not attack an opinion (although your wording there says more than you may want it to) as it's not fact and attacking an opinion to me means you have no intention to actually argue your own, you just choose/want to shoot it down. You can disagree and argue a different opinion sure and I have no issue with that at all.

 

About your second point 2. I am also not saying what NQ writes there is irrelevant, I am talking about the needless bickering just to start or maintain an argument on this which is the thing I will leave as it is. I thought that was pretty straightforward English but I could have been mistaken and hope this clears that up. 

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its very simple, If we all shout the crap out of everyone and everything when its opened according to the roadmap, pvp will change in release because noone will play a game where your constantly being shot and robbed from the second you log in, all casuals will call for money backs and the total gameplay experience will drop dead. Or not and it will become a hard core pvp fest.

there are just plain simple no other options. If everyone can shoot everyone just walking out of the initial safezone then from a strategic point of view, Any org that wants to grow big just places a few hundred shooters there to shoot everyone for a week or two who try to leave the initial zone. Atleast thats what I should strategically propose If i want a headstart and be in space first as organization, so probably others are already planning this

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There are some vital issues for many here. 1. You as a player and your creations are the content & loot for other players in the current system (can of course be changed). 2. The number of successful self policing PvP games are very small. 3. Remember ArcheAge? Wonderful game in testing, live not so much (the  big guilds in AA did not really do nice things and could not be stopped).

I sincerely hopes that DU becomes successful and I hope the PvP play test will be a real one with lots of griefing, that way the developers have a chance to solve any problems.

Edited by Sigtyr
bad wording

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@Sigtyr

  1. True if all you consider is a PVP mindset and playstyle which in DU is just one of many possible ones. For one you as a player can be an asset and a resource for others, especially when you join an org where you can play an important part in any number of possible roles, something not seen in many other MMO games with a big exception there being EVE online.
  2. Players will control how their territory is policed. If they fail, others will not go there to trade or work. DU is not a "PVP game".
  3. A comparison with Archeage (what I consider as your average P2W Fantasy MMO) is IMO completely off, the two are nothing alike at all.

 

 

As I see it one of the biggest problems looming for DU is the saber rattling and tough talk seen around here where no one really knows yet what combat will be like, how it may or may not affect others and in what way. There is nothing worse than a game which is killed of by its community even before it gets started and/or where the community sets up expectations which are not inline with what he developer intends to do and/or forces a dev to make unwanted changes.

 

For one, this and other threads does indicate to/for me that NQ has some work to do to set clear expectation as to what their vision and intent for DU really is.

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

@Sigtyr

 

 

For one, this and other threads does indicate to/for me that NQ has some work to do to set clear expectation as to what their vision and intent for DU really is.

I totally agree with you here! If enough big guilds decide to do X (that is what happened in AA) it really does not matter what NQ's intentions where, if something is doable you can be sure people will do it. But then again I hope that the pvp playtest is a no holds barred kind of event. Maybe rewards to the best griefers (and I am serious here) because it will happen live.

Edited by Sigtyr

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I get what you are saying and while I do not have experience with AA I think the same at least damaged the rep for ARK.

 

While for me  personally really can't say I'm too concerned about PVP. As an org we will find our way without it and will be able to avoid it mostly. And when it does we'll deal with it best we can if we have to. We are also very active in EVE under the same Credo and while for EVE people generally (also) claim it's PVP centric and you can't really exist without it I think we, as Signal Cartel have been able to show that a Counter-Culture is very much viable and frankly a lot of fun to play out.

 

So for me/us it really does not matter much, I do agree with your sentiment that if unchecked through the game mechanics having rampant gangs running around is a real potential problem where they may scare off (incoming) players who either are not innovative enough or get scared off by early losses. For us though, these people will actually be a welcome resource if they are interested and we will cater to them, educate in our way of approaching life in DU and if willing make a part of one of our programs to enjoy their live in this universe while being supported through the org and supporting the community as a whole. We have a saying in Signal Cartel and that is 'Reputation Tank .. best Tank' en we'll see how this translates to DU.

 

Let's hope NQ is able to handle this, I would agree it may both be interesting and important to see what happens if/when combat is introduced and weapons/destructive force put into people's hands. I really have no reason to believe they won't but I do think they will need to make their intent and vision clear well before weapons become a thing.

 

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