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Anopheles

The right to be evil

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37 minutes ago, Lethys said:

If there is a way to block players/orgs from using your market terminal (which I think is mandatory and a given considering RDMS) then you'd need that for the auction house too somehow - otherwise you can bypass it again. But that would be hard to balance because there's no "physical" auction house (I image it to be more like contracts in eve)

I don't think you can block anyone from accessing the items listed on your terminal, because the blog states that items for sale will be visible remotely. That makes it sound like EVE's market tab, where buy and sell offers within a certain physical distance can be viewed from anywhere, because the "market window" is part of the player's UI. But perhaps it will be possible to maintain a "remote access blacklist" on your terminals, who knows ?

 

In EVE, the items you purchased are collected from NPC stations. Nobody can stop you from collecting goods, as long as you can get into that station. As long as your NPC rep is good, the station will always welcome you. Train the right skills, and you can even remotely setup sell orders, which will automatically transfer the items from your hangar to the "market".

 

In DU the goods for sale on a terminal are stored in a container owned by the market operator, which is also attached/linked to that terminal. If goods are collected from a "dispenser unit" (also owned by the market operator), you can certainly control access to the area where that dispenser is placed...

 

That opens up an opportunity for a whole new level of scamming, lol

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25 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

I don't think you can block anyone from accessing the items listed on your terminal, because the blog states that items for sale will be visible remotely. That makes it sound like EVE's market tab, where buy and sell offers within a certain physical distance can be viewed from anywhere, because the "market window" is part of the player's UI. But perhaps it will be possible to maintain a "remote access blacklist" on your terminals, who knows ?

 

In EVE, the items you purchased are collected from NPC stations. Nobody can stop you from collecting goods, as long as you can get into that station. As long as your NPC rep is good, the station will always welcome you. Train the right skills, and you can even remotely setup sell orders, which will automatically transfer the items from your hangar to the "market".

 

In DU the goods for sale on a terminal are stored in a container owned by the market operator, which is also attached/linked to that terminal. If goods are collected from a "dispenser unit" (also owned by the market operator), you can certainly control access to the area where that dispenser is placed...

 

That opens up an opportunity for a whole new level of scamming, lol

That's independent of each other - see Eve, there it's the same story. People sell goods all the time (via contracts, but for the market it's the same thing) based off in NullSec in some Outpost (owned by a player run corp). You can buy it remotely ofc, but when you fly there you might not be able to dock because the owner of that outpost restricted docking rights.

 

Same thing in DU: you might be able to see the items, but you might not be able to actually use the terminal to get them

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

@AnophelesAnd where would you have a source that states everything outside safezones is lawless?

 

That is an assumption at the core of this argument.

Assuming a wipe at beta/release all areas outside the newb base will be lawless until someone puts some law there and that law will only extend as far as people are wiling/able to control.

 

Over time  the area of lawless space will shrink (barring deliberate setting up of 'anything goes' regions by player groups and natural decay of ownerships) which will last until the devs extends the space again.

 

I don't see how it would be anything else?

 

 

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10 hours ago, Omfgreenhair said:

hmmm combat log is one thing, keeping track of who dragged their keys across your car door while you not there is somewhat unlikely. This due the certain level of realism they like to implement in the game. Keeping track of such things would be somewhat jarring, design wise.

 

Also, if you want to be evil in this game, you can very well be evil. Be it white-collar zero conscious evil or bush wacker evil.

Damage to property on territory is a breach of some pretty heavy security, I would want to know who is tampering with my territory if i'm not online to personally witness their invasion. I would be able to see anyone damaging my ship but assuming i'm not online the updates should include who is attacking.

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The only PvE content one can find in this game is just the building/mining/economy aspect of it. No bosses or NPC missions whatsoever. One of the aspects that trully makes the game interesting is that unknown risk factor that you might be attacked, that can only be provided by human interaction. Having entire planets full of rich resources where such possibility is forbidden just makes no sense in my eyes... and it's incredibly boring. You have Minecraft servers for that, but ultimately, the buildings in that game do not matter since they are used for nothing but making an youtube video about it. In DU, however, our constructions matter because of all the possible interactions we will have with everyone in the Single Shard server. That would not be possible in planets where PvP is forbidden. I think safe zones are already enough as it is. I never understood players that want everything handed to them... then, what's the point of playing a game to begin with? Like in Guild Wars 2, you had people spending real-life money to buy the materials for their legenday skins (yep, no special stats associated to it) when the whole point of a MMO is to play and work with your guild mates for said materials..lol. 

 

Plus, Novaquark will definitely provide the tools so the miner can defend himself. For example, you can put points on defense in order to tank the first shots and then escape in a tunnel you previously dug close to the resource rich vein. You can contract player mercenaries to protect you in exchange of part of the resources you get. Join an organisation and do stuff together and protect each other... you know, fun MMO stuff. Risk vs reward and emergent gameplay at it's finest.

 

But what about trolls and players that only have fun stalking people and ruining their stuff? Well, let's not forget this is not a free to play game. Tons of potential griefers are already excluded just by that. As for the small minority that still remains, i'm sure there will be in game tools like the bounty hunt system to take care of them. Hell, fighting these guys might actually be fun..lol. 

 

Btw, finally this pre-alpha quiet NDA phase is ending. I'm looking forward to all the upcoming videos you guys will make in Alpha 1 and more news from Novaquark :)

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7 hours ago, Demonneo said:

But what about trolls and players that only have fun stalking people and ruining their stuff? Well, let's not forget this is not a free to play game. Tons of potential griefers are already excluded just by that. As for the small minority that still remains, i'm sure there will be in game tools like the bounty hunt system to take care of them. Hell, fighting these guys might actually be fun..lol. 

There are no griefers, or do you mean aggressive players that you did not prepare well enough for? :D:P

 

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9 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

There are no griefers, or do you mean aggressive players that you did not prepare well enough for? :D:P

 

There most certainly will be "griefers", lol

 

Those are the ones that break into your base, not to steal, but to delete everything they can find.

The ones who'll deface the land all along the edge of your hex claim, because they want to harvest your tears.

The ones who'll destroy your TCU not because they want to claim the land, but because they know it will make you angry...

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5 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

There most certainly will be "griefers", lol

 

Those are the ones that break into your base, not to steal, but to delete everything they can find.

The ones who'll deface the land all along the edge of your hex claim, because they want to harvest your tears.

The ones who'll destroy your TCU not because they want to claim the land, but because they know it will make you angry...

Not sure they will be able to delete stuff, perhaps blow holes it stuff, but not delete.... Unless they take out the the TCU, but that's another story entirely.

 

As for the rest, still not griefers, that's emergent game play ;) lol

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

 

As for the rest, still not griefers, that's emergent game play ;) lol

 

 

Call it what you like, but in my book destruction for the sole purpose of making others angry will always be griefing.

 

A thief that takes all he can carry is legit, but one who only breaks in to destroy "because he can" is not.

 

It's like vandalism in RL.

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1 minute ago, NanoDot said:

Call it what you like, but in my book destruction for the sole purpose of making others angry will always be griefing.

 

A thief that takes all he can carry is legit, but one who only breaks in to destroy "because he can" is not.

 

It's like vandalism in RL.

And what if said 'vandalism' causes you to hunt him/her down in your bright new shiny ship to an outer moon, to then be ambushed by the 'griefer' and his friends, who capture your ship worth billions and send you to a respawn point? Then that greifing was just bait to get your shiny ship.

 

Things are not always as clear cut as it may seem ;)

 

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23 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

Things are not always as clear cut as it may seem

They usually are, actually.

 

Most examples of senseless destruction are just that, senseless. There's no intricate scheme behind it all, it's just done to irritate and cause maximum inconvenience.

 

Most PVP'ers are not griefers, it takes a special kind of mindset to be a griefer, lol

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34 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

They usually are, actually.

 

Most examples of senseless destruction are just that, senseless. There's no intricate scheme behind it all, it's just done to irritate and cause maximum inconvenience.

 

Most PVP'ers are not griefers, it takes a special kind of mindset to be a griefer, lol

or 'senseless destruction' is the other side of the coin that says 'I like to see things go BOOM!' - its all a perspective thing. ;)

 

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38 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

They usually are, actually.

 

Most examples of senseless destruction are just that, senseless. There's no intricate scheme behind it all, it's just done to irritate and cause maximum inconvenience.

 

Most PVP'ers are not griefers, it takes a special kind of mindset to be a griefer, lol

Well i get your sentiment here. However keep in mind that in a game like this the players will have to provide the consequences. prepare yourself!

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7 hours ago, Zamarus said:

Well i get your sentiment here. However keep in mind that in a game like this the players will have to provide the consequences. prepare yourself!

I'm already prepared... ;)

 

NQ are also preparing, which is why they are implementing things like safezones. Nobody wants to see DU limping along with a tiny player base because a handful of players have dedicated themselves to make the game as unpleasant as possible...

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2 hours ago, NanoDot said:

I'm already prepared... ;)

 

NQ are also preparing, which is why they are implementing things like safezones. Nobody wants to see DU limping along with a tiny player base because a handful of players have dedicated themselves to make the game as unpleasant as possible...

I seriously doubt such a tiny dedicated group have the capacity anyways. Hiding and protecting yourself will probably be much easier than you think

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I doubt we even wil have a group of players trying to make the game as unpleasant as possible. One could argue that logic is the sole needed counter argument.

 

Do we really believe that players buy the game, get a subscription, spend time building any inventory to even grief with... Only to get blacklisted by major corps on hit-lists, KoS lists and buried under a mountain of bounties. Let alone possibly banned for "undesired behavior".

 

If anything, the French usually in games and fora have a very tight "no bullshit" policy for when someone even wobbles accidentally off the right path. So I'm fairly sure that we're safe from actual "griefers", which I find a big relieve.

 

That said, to get back on topic, being "evil" is possible. We'd have to classify evil of course, that is tolerated within the code of conduct. Once we establish this objectively, we can move forward living our dreams as written per To be a Villain for Dummies. Text book villainy can be derived from the core types depicted often in D&D alignment system.

 

Though the best villainy I like is the type that actually has a "just" goal from their perspective, doesn't loose it's cool and steadily convinces good souls that it's just. We've had some inspiring historical figures. Or just watch some of Antony Hopkins' rolls.

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2 hours ago, Omfgreenhair said:

We'd have to classify evil of course, that is tolerated within the code of conduct

That's easy. As long as you don't break the eula, you're good (as far as unwanted behavior goes). If that's evil or not depends on the community you're playing with.

 

A good and well written eula is crucial here - If there are possible Interpretations then ppl will argue (I

totally expect that to happen anyway).

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Ultimately, it's NQ who will decide what constitutes "griefing" behaviour. If they feel that the actions of a small group are negatively impacting the game as a whole, they will act.

 

I don't believe NQ will just sit back and watch the world burn, I think JC's plans are a bit more ambitious than that...

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To be fair there is a difference between "Legally acceptable" and "Socially acceptable". For example, telling someone that they are an idiot while legal (at least in the US), is looked down upon.  And if there is a culture within DU that there is a "right to be evil" then there will likely be a lot more griefers and whatnot even if the game mechanics are the same compared to a culture against griefing. This is the biggest problem that I see with the game. Not the mechanics, but a culture of acceptance of griefers.

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1 hour ago, 0something0 said:

To be fair there is a difference between "Legally acceptable" and "Socially acceptable". For example, telling someone that they are an idiot while legal (at least in the US), is looked down upon. 

 

Making the statement that someone is an idiot is generally not OK, and would be considered a potential case of defamation and could be contested (in court). Saying that you feel someone is or that someone is behaving like an idiot is personal opinion and as such would fall under free speech.

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We keep saying "griefers" but in reality we got to count on the community to reduce unwanted guests. We're getting in the dispute district of the discussion again where it's a "he said, she said" situation. Trust the community to solve these disputes with what I've described before.

 

Griefing is a very minor form of 'evil' though. Of course it's undesired but it doesn't really hold a candle light to monopolizing a base material, destroy any competition by influencing the market and put hit man bounties on miners of anyone other than their own corp. Or politically hold minor corps under the boot heel, infiltrate the competition to leak locations of A.O. which then can be sold as information to information brokers or pirates.

 

Really... "HUEHUE I REKT MUH SHIP ON YUR BASE, U MAD?!? HUEHUE" is really laughably poor example of evil. They're not evil, they're just jerks and jerks in DU get quickly expelled from civilization. Again, very pricy 'lulz' if you ask me, all counter measures considering.

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The eula needs constant adjustments anyway to ban unwanted behavior. 

But these adjustments need to be balanced well and clearly written too. 

 

For example (I'm still drunk a little so can't think of a better one xD):

If prisons are a thing via some mechanic in DU then players will use this. All good, No worries. Then some jerks decide to use all their gathered dirt to box in a whole territory. After months of debates wheather this is griefing or not, NQ decided to adapt the eula by adding:

"You're Not allowed to impede movement of other players (for example by boxing them in)"

 

Bam. Prisons banned too. People will then argue about that statement if prisons are still allowed or not - and the threadnaught explodes once again. 

 

They can only do so much with the eula. Players will use tactics that might fall under griefing. Everyone reacts differently to griefing (depending on your mindset, ingame and RL circumstances, stresslevel,...) and ppl have different opinions in what griefing actually is. That's why I think it's best to have a good and waterproof eula - the rest can be handled by players themselves. DU is huge, after a year many players won't even know each other or won't even know the tactics/designs/ships used by other groups in a different area of space. That's why I think of communities in Du as smaller conglomerates (a few solar systems maybe). A Player banned there by the community because he's a griefer (thus can't use markets, is hunted constantly, ...) may find another home far away because ppl don't know what He did - and He may be a valuable member there.

In 99,9% of my gametime noone can grief me for example, I see everything as opertunity for gameplay. Sometimes I'm just not in the right mood, but then I simply stop playing. 

 

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