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Anopheles

The right to be evil

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55 minutes ago, Lethys said:

As written already, artificial systems of any kind can be abused/circumvented. Yes, some basic ones have to be in place to prevent/enforce certain behavior, but imho the best thing in a game like DU is: player interaction. They run the markets there and TCUs. They can prevent someone from using their market. They can search for alts. They can mark (justified or not) someone as KOS via RDMS (not through lua though) - and so on. So I think that pirates will already have a hard time in or around the safezone

There are many subtleties in DU that are easy to miss, and therefore get lost in the noise of recycled arguments that have been valid in "other games" for decades.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, ALL market terminals in DU will be player-owned, unless NQ build "arkship market terminals" to compete with players... which would surprise me.

 

That would mean that DU will be the first game I know of with no "Auction House" provided by the game itself, which would be outside of player control.

 

That has profound implications, because it means players will decide who gets access to the markets !

 

So be careful who you offend... or else make sure your alts cannot be identified in the slightest... ;)

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3 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

There are many subtleties in DU that are easy to miss, and therefore get lost in the noise of recycled arguments that have been valid in "other games" for decades.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, ALL market terminals in DU will be player-owned, unless NQ build "arkship market terminals" to compete with players... which would surprise me.

 

That would mean that DU will be the first game I know of with no "Auction House" provided by the game itself, which would be outside of player control.

 

That has profound implications, because it means players will decide who gets access to the markets !

 

So be careful who you offend... or else make sure your alts cannot be identified in the slightest... ;)

well yes, that's what I wrote there :P

 

read:

Old, yes, but the "latest" info we have (until may, that is - and it's only the first iteration too). So yes, they go for both. Auction house AND markets like eve

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Black market ... 

 

No wonder why underworld is a thing in real life, first time to see a game that got it own Black Market :)

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9 minutes ago, Lethys said:

well yes, that's what I wrote there

I was agreeing with you and expanding on the idea... ;)

 

My understanding of that blog is that the arkship terminals will only sell "basic goods". They will in all likelihood not accept player sell orders, because if they do, the arkship will become DU's "Jita" very quickly. And once that happens, it's very hard to change. Plus the goods offered for sale by players would have to be stored in arkship-controlled containers, etc.

 

There are more questions than answers at this point.

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6 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Black market ... 

 

No wonder why underworld is a thing in real life, first time to see a game that got it own Black Market :)

That is the logical reason for something like "Project Tortuga" !

 

A place where nobody is excluded from trading (provided they can survive the shopping trip ! ;)

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24 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

I was agreeing with you and expanding on the idea... ;)

 

My understanding of that blog is that the arkship terminals will only sell "basic goods". They will in all likelihood not accept player sell orders, because if they do, the arkship will become DU's "Jita" very quickly. And once that happens, it's very hard to change. Plus the goods offered for sale by players would have to be stored in arkship-controlled containers, etc.

 

There are more questions than answers at this point.

yes, that's what they answered there - only basic items will be sold to start the economy. So while that possibly could compete with players, I don't think it will.

I always thought of the auction house as "I can sell my fully fitted ship there" - for things that you can't/don't want to buy in bulk (unlike ore for example).

 

If there is a way to block players/orgs from using your market terminal (which I think is mandatory and a given considering RDMS) then you'd need that for the auction house too somehow - otherwise you can bypass it again. But that would be hard to balance because there's no "physical" auction house (I image it to be more like contracts in eve)

 

Regardless of those system, it's definitely needed imho to let players hunt the alts/spais/infiltrators and block their access to the market. In the same way as ppl living outside of safezones may build a superhighway of stargates - and block others from entering (or asking a ridiculous amout of quanta)

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37 minutes ago, Lethys said:

If there is a way to block players/orgs from using your market terminal (which I think is mandatory and a given considering RDMS) then you'd need that for the auction house too somehow - otherwise you can bypass it again. But that would be hard to balance because there's no "physical" auction house (I image it to be more like contracts in eve)

I don't think you can block anyone from accessing the items listed on your terminal, because the blog states that items for sale will be visible remotely. That makes it sound like EVE's market tab, where buy and sell offers within a certain physical distance can be viewed from anywhere, because the "market window" is part of the player's UI. But perhaps it will be possible to maintain a "remote access blacklist" on your terminals, who knows ?

 

In EVE, the items you purchased are collected from NPC stations. Nobody can stop you from collecting goods, as long as you can get into that station. As long as your NPC rep is good, the station will always welcome you. Train the right skills, and you can even remotely setup sell orders, which will automatically transfer the items from your hangar to the "market".

 

In DU the goods for sale on a terminal are stored in a container owned by the market operator, which is also attached/linked to that terminal. If goods are collected from a "dispenser unit" (also owned by the market operator), you can certainly control access to the area where that dispenser is placed...

 

That opens up an opportunity for a whole new level of scamming, lol

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25 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

I don't think you can block anyone from accessing the items listed on your terminal, because the blog states that items for sale will be visible remotely. That makes it sound like EVE's market tab, where buy and sell offers within a certain physical distance can be viewed from anywhere, because the "market window" is part of the player's UI. But perhaps it will be possible to maintain a "remote access blacklist" on your terminals, who knows ?

 

In EVE, the items you purchased are collected from NPC stations. Nobody can stop you from collecting goods, as long as you can get into that station. As long as your NPC rep is good, the station will always welcome you. Train the right skills, and you can even remotely setup sell orders, which will automatically transfer the items from your hangar to the "market".

 

In DU the goods for sale on a terminal are stored in a container owned by the market operator, which is also attached/linked to that terminal. If goods are collected from a "dispenser unit" (also owned by the market operator), you can certainly control access to the area where that dispenser is placed...

 

That opens up an opportunity for a whole new level of scamming, lol

That's independent of each other - see Eve, there it's the same story. People sell goods all the time (via contracts, but for the market it's the same thing) based off in NullSec in some Outpost (owned by a player run corp). You can buy it remotely ofc, but when you fly there you might not be able to dock because the owner of that outpost restricted docking rights.

 

Same thing in DU: you might be able to see the items, but you might not be able to actually use the terminal to get them

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

@AnophelesAnd where would you have a source that states everything outside safezones is lawless?

 

That is an assumption at the core of this argument.

Assuming a wipe at beta/release all areas outside the newb base will be lawless until someone puts some law there and that law will only extend as far as people are wiling/able to control.

 

Over time  the area of lawless space will shrink (barring deliberate setting up of 'anything goes' regions by player groups and natural decay of ownerships) which will last until the devs extends the space again.

 

I don't see how it would be anything else?

 

 

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10 hours ago, Omfgreenhair said:

hmmm combat log is one thing, keeping track of who dragged their keys across your car door while you not there is somewhat unlikely. This due the certain level of realism they like to implement in the game. Keeping track of such things would be somewhat jarring, design wise.

 

Also, if you want to be evil in this game, you can very well be evil. Be it white-collar zero conscious evil or bush wacker evil.

Damage to property on territory is a breach of some pretty heavy security, I would want to know who is tampering with my territory if i'm not online to personally witness their invasion. I would be able to see anyone damaging my ship but assuming i'm not online the updates should include who is attacking.

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The only PvE content one can find in this game is just the building/mining/economy aspect of it. No bosses or NPC missions whatsoever. One of the aspects that trully makes the game interesting is that unknown risk factor that you might be attacked, that can only be provided by human interaction. Having entire planets full of rich resources where such possibility is forbidden just makes no sense in my eyes... and it's incredibly boring. You have Minecraft servers for that, but ultimately, the buildings in that game do not matter since they are used for nothing but making an youtube video about it. In DU, however, our constructions matter because of all the possible interactions we will have with everyone in the Single Shard server. That would not be possible in planets where PvP is forbidden. I think safe zones are already enough as it is. I never understood players that want everything handed to them... then, what's the point of playing a game to begin with? Like in Guild Wars 2, you had people spending real-life money to buy the materials for their legenday skins (yep, no special stats associated to it) when the whole point of a MMO is to play and work with your guild mates for said materials..lol. 

 

Plus, Novaquark will definitely provide the tools so the miner can defend himself. For example, you can put points on defense in order to tank the first shots and then escape in a tunnel you previously dug close to the resource rich vein. You can contract player mercenaries to protect you in exchange of part of the resources you get. Join an organisation and do stuff together and protect each other... you know, fun MMO stuff. Risk vs reward and emergent gameplay at it's finest.

 

But what about trolls and players that only have fun stalking people and ruining their stuff? Well, let's not forget this is not a free to play game. Tons of potential griefers are already excluded just by that. As for the small minority that still remains, i'm sure there will be in game tools like the bounty hunt system to take care of them. Hell, fighting these guys might actually be fun..lol. 

 

Btw, finally this pre-alpha quiet NDA phase is ending. I'm looking forward to all the upcoming videos you guys will make in Alpha 1 and more news from Novaquark :)

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7 hours ago, Demonneo said:

But what about trolls and players that only have fun stalking people and ruining their stuff? Well, let's not forget this is not a free to play game. Tons of potential griefers are already excluded just by that. As for the small minority that still remains, i'm sure there will be in game tools like the bounty hunt system to take care of them. Hell, fighting these guys might actually be fun..lol. 

There are no griefers, or do you mean aggressive players that you did not prepare well enough for? :D:P

 

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9 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

There are no griefers, or do you mean aggressive players that you did not prepare well enough for? :D:P

 

There most certainly will be "griefers", lol

 

Those are the ones that break into your base, not to steal, but to delete everything they can find.

The ones who'll deface the land all along the edge of your hex claim, because they want to harvest your tears.

The ones who'll destroy your TCU not because they want to claim the land, but because they know it will make you angry...

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5 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

There most certainly will be "griefers", lol

 

Those are the ones that break into your base, not to steal, but to delete everything they can find.

The ones who'll deface the land all along the edge of your hex claim, because they want to harvest your tears.

The ones who'll destroy your TCU not because they want to claim the land, but because they know it will make you angry...

Not sure they will be able to delete stuff, perhaps blow holes it stuff, but not delete.... Unless they take out the the TCU, but that's another story entirely.

 

As for the rest, still not griefers, that's emergent game play ;) lol

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

 

As for the rest, still not griefers, that's emergent game play ;) lol

 

 

Call it what you like, but in my book destruction for the sole purpose of making others angry will always be griefing.

 

A thief that takes all he can carry is legit, but one who only breaks in to destroy "because he can" is not.

 

It's like vandalism in RL.

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1 minute ago, NanoDot said:

Call it what you like, but in my book destruction for the sole purpose of making others angry will always be griefing.

 

A thief that takes all he can carry is legit, but one who only breaks in to destroy "because he can" is not.

 

It's like vandalism in RL.

And what if said 'vandalism' causes you to hunt him/her down in your bright new shiny ship to an outer moon, to then be ambushed by the 'griefer' and his friends, who capture your ship worth billions and send you to a respawn point? Then that greifing was just bait to get your shiny ship.

 

Things are not always as clear cut as it may seem ;)

 

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23 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

Things are not always as clear cut as it may seem

They usually are, actually.

 

Most examples of senseless destruction are just that, senseless. There's no intricate scheme behind it all, it's just done to irritate and cause maximum inconvenience.

 

Most PVP'ers are not griefers, it takes a special kind of mindset to be a griefer, lol

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34 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

They usually are, actually.

 

Most examples of senseless destruction are just that, senseless. There's no intricate scheme behind it all, it's just done to irritate and cause maximum inconvenience.

 

Most PVP'ers are not griefers, it takes a special kind of mindset to be a griefer, lol

or 'senseless destruction' is the other side of the coin that says 'I like to see things go BOOM!' - its all a perspective thing. ;)

 

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38 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

They usually are, actually.

 

Most examples of senseless destruction are just that, senseless. There's no intricate scheme behind it all, it's just done to irritate and cause maximum inconvenience.

 

Most PVP'ers are not griefers, it takes a special kind of mindset to be a griefer, lol

Well i get your sentiment here. However keep in mind that in a game like this the players will have to provide the consequences. prepare yourself!

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7 hours ago, Zamarus said:

Well i get your sentiment here. However keep in mind that in a game like this the players will have to provide the consequences. prepare yourself!

I'm already prepared... ;)

 

NQ are also preparing, which is why they are implementing things like safezones. Nobody wants to see DU limping along with a tiny player base because a handful of players have dedicated themselves to make the game as unpleasant as possible...

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2 hours ago, NanoDot said:

I'm already prepared... ;)

 

NQ are also preparing, which is why they are implementing things like safezones. Nobody wants to see DU limping along with a tiny player base because a handful of players have dedicated themselves to make the game as unpleasant as possible...

I seriously doubt such a tiny dedicated group have the capacity anyways. Hiding and protecting yourself will probably be much easier than you think

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I doubt we even wil have a group of players trying to make the game as unpleasant as possible. One could argue that logic is the sole needed counter argument.

 

Do we really believe that players buy the game, get a subscription, spend time building any inventory to even grief with... Only to get blacklisted by major corps on hit-lists, KoS lists and buried under a mountain of bounties. Let alone possibly banned for "undesired behavior".

 

If anything, the French usually in games and fora have a very tight "no bullshit" policy for when someone even wobbles accidentally off the right path. So I'm fairly sure that we're safe from actual "griefers", which I find a big relieve.

 

That said, to get back on topic, being "evil" is possible. We'd have to classify evil of course, that is tolerated within the code of conduct. Once we establish this objectively, we can move forward living our dreams as written per To be a Villain for Dummies. Text book villainy can be derived from the core types depicted often in D&D alignment system.

 

Though the best villainy I like is the type that actually has a "just" goal from their perspective, doesn't loose it's cool and steadily convinces good souls that it's just. We've had some inspiring historical figures. Or just watch some of Antony Hopkins' rolls.

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