Jump to content
Orius

A lesson from ARK: Survival Evolved.

Recommended Posts

After re-divulging into the game that destroyed the meaning of Early Access on Steam, I have realized something: Dual Universe has a possibility of becoming similar to ARK. Before you tear into me for this, hear me out. 

 

There is a distinct possibility that this game could become more of a chore for players, having to check on your construct constantly, 24/7 maybe, to make sure they aren't going to be destroyed when you are offline, similar to the way ARK has become. Instead of fixing the base game, the developers of ARK kept adding more content, further pushing the game's community further and further apart and breaking the game's performance even more than it already was. 

 

There is the possibility for this game to be dominated by massive organizations, similar to how the servers on ARK are currently being dominated by "alpha megatribes", tribes dominating the server that have essentially unlimited resources, overpowered gear, overpowered dinosaurs,  and a territory control over the island that essentially means that noobs who spawn have no chance of getting a good grip. With the completely unbalanced weapons, PVP has truly become a nightmare, and with unbalanced dinosaurs, the PvE has just become another No Man's Sky. 

 

In summary, Dual Universe has a long way to go in development, and can go either 2 ways: it can be a really great game, or it can be another ARK. Only time will tell what will happen, but I have a hope that this game will not be another ARK. 

 

Novaquark, you have been warned. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

Keeping mining a manual task will help in reducing the  'unlimited resource' issue you mention above.

But the organization could just hire noobs as resource slaves. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Orius said:

But the organization could just hire noobs as resource slaves. 

Quite true, however, having non automated mining will still reduce the whole resource rich environment - and resource slaves will get sick of being used like that and do other things in the game.

 

There will still be large orgs in game, thats the nature of things, nothing you can do about that - just like in real life ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I completely forgot to mention that noobs who join the ARK servers are unable to progress the game because these tribes would destroy them for no reason, wiping servers every week. This could happen if a mega org takes control of the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Orius said:

I completely forgot to mention that noobs who join the ARK servers are unable to progress the game because these tribes would destroy them for no reason, wiping servers every week. This could happen if a mega org takes control of the game. 

I dont know ARK, but ARK is just one world isnt it? DU will be several, over (eventually) many many solar systems, I dont see how any org could do that, no matter how big.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Orius said:

I completely forgot to mention that noobs who join the ARK servers are unable to progress the game because these tribes would destroy them for no reason, wiping servers every week. This could happen if a mega org takes control of the game. 

That's why there are safezones where No PvP bis allowed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The case is: can you think of any game mechanics that are not super artificial that would make zerg orgs less desirable to join? Anything that encourage small groups over large ones?

 

Because I can't. Not in game with such amount of freedom and no "score" of any kind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ARK and DU are very different games.

 

Survival games like ARK are designed to work with many independent small-population servers that are wiped intermittently to "refresh" the game world. DU is a "true" MMO, the world will be persistent, and the player population (and game world) will be several orders of magnitude greater than in ARK.

 

Player progress in ARK, Rust and DayZ is also very fast compared to what we can expect in DU. ARK servers are "fast cycle" games, where you reach max level in a month or two of game play. It will most likely take years to get to "max level" in DU, if it's even possible to do so.

 

ARK's resources respawn quickly, DU's resources don't respawn at all, which will slow down the pace of play quite a bit compared to ARK. ARK's game world is tiny compared to that of DU, and DU's game world will continue to expand.

 

So far, NQ have shown no signs of "rushing" development. If anything, the opposite is true.

 

NQ also have an overall "vision" for what they want DU to be, and their design and implementation both reflect that goal. The safezones in DU are a case in point, games like ARK simply dump new players into their small game worlds, with no support systems. They are "pure survival" games, and that is not what NQ intend for DU.


Theoretically, a mega-org could dominate DU. But theoretically, it could also happen in EVE. It has never happened in EVE in the 15 years that EVE has existed. EVE has had some very powerful alliances in its history, but none of them ever had complete control over more than half of the game world, if that much. It will in all likelihood never happen in DU for much the same reasons as it did not happen in EVE. 

 

Keep in mind that a "mega-org" in a game like ARK seldom has more than 40-50 members, and that's typically a very large slice of the total server pop. In DU, something of that size probably wouldn't even make the top 100. EVE has had alliances with 5K members... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

The case is: can you think of any game mechanics that are not super artificial that would make zerg orgs less desirable to join? Anything that encourage small groups over large ones?

 

Because I can't. Not in game with such amount of freedom and no "score" of any kind.

An Ark tax levied on corporations above, say 100 players that increases as the size of the org increases. At some point, the tax would become uneconomical, causing the org to break into smaller sub units. They could still cooperate, of course, but if legates are limited to one org, power would be more widely distributed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would agree though that if DU turns into 'unless you are in a safezone we will try to kill you and destroy your stuff for no reason but because we can', it will not last long and NQ will need to ensure that does not happen.

 

PVP in DU is not a main component in the vision NQ has, it is not going to be implemented as a pure 'pewpew anything for whatever reason'  I hope and believe. Combat (which would be a better way wording for the 'PVP' mechanic in DU) will hopefully be available as a means for organisations to resolve conflict when all else fails. We will have to see how this goes, but the plethora of warmongering based orgs (as seen in their descriptions and recruitment text) does not bode well IMO even when I fully expect many of these to implode the moment the game actually starts once the 'leadership' of these finds it actually takes a lot of effort to run and manage an org.

 

In the vision of NQ DU is a community and building environment before anything else. In that respect it's very much like Sid Meier's Civilization games where yes, combat  and conflict is part of the  game but it is not the main driver. It is a means to an end, not the (main) purpose of the game.

 

 

So yes, if DU goes the route ARK did, where you basically can and frequently will be met with a firing squad the moment you step out of the spawning area, it will not end well and quickly. The warmongering PVP thirsty crowds need to realize that they only shoot themselves in the foot if they adopt these tactics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Combat takes Up the exact same space as building, trading, exploring. It's in even ground with anything else and also prominently displayed in the first Paragraph of the description, as every other vital component of Du.

 

On many occasions they did say now that everything is equally important and they want to give "peaceful" players a home just as "PvP" loving ones. Also they want to give ppl Safe spaces aswell as making space dangerous.

 

Running a successful org is always a lot of work, regardless of where you max live. Many will fail because their dreams might not work out and many will fail because they're Not used to a 24/7 game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If organizations can't keep respectful order to the chaos in numbers that could flood this game, then yeah it might be tons of planets covered in holes. If balance for the game seems fair then new players can build singular ships, and maybe ships of a bigger size but the real builds and the real ships (hopefully enormous) will only be achievable by not only a mass of players in an Organization but cooperation from each of them to function the ship. That way it wouldn't be economically efficient to decimate new players risking ships and resources for nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

An Ark tax levied on corporations above, say 100 players that increases as the size of the org increases. At some point, the tax would become uneconomical, causing the org to break into smaller sub units. They could still cooperate, of course, but if legates are limited to one org, power would be more widely distributed.

Then we'll have BOO1, BOO2, BOO3, ..., BOO69, ect.

A lot of hassle for everyone (players, devs), and doesn't really help much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Orius said:

having to check on your construct constantly, 24/7 maybe, to make sure they aren't going to be destroyed when you are offline, similar to the way ARK has become. Instead of fixing the base game, the developers of ARK kept adding

Did you forgot that we got auto mail ( which NQ confirm to develop ) to inform you that your base been attack ?

 

14 hours ago, Orius said:

There is the possibility for this game to be dominated by massive organizations, similar to how the servers on ARK are currently being dominated by "alpha megatribes", tribes dominating the server that have essentially unlimited resources, overpowered gear, overpowered dinosaurs,  and a territory control over the island that essentially means that noobs who spawn have no chance of getting a good grip

You know we and ARK are very different ? Count for the player base i can see like heaven with hell now.


Also like i always say, control or maintain a big ( massive ) org isnt an easy task. Corruption, spy, divide, betrayal, unity, loss faith into the leader ,... will easy crumble and break the org apart ( like what happen with SYND even the game isnt launch yet lmao) . But if they can, why we limited their power ? Their intelligent ? If we limited what an org can do, it just go against DU agenda : " FREEDOM, PLAYER DRIVEN" . 

 

In the end universe is big, big org influence cant cover all the universe. If you want peace you should live at safe zone or either some baren planet which held nothing so rare that big org have to put an eye on you.

 

But live under the umbrella of big org will give you some good advantage and most advantage is SAFE. "Freedom isnt free" you know ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the eventuality of a big power imbalance on or near Alioth, I think the important thing is that players can always get up and running in the safe zone, sothat they will always be able to prepare themselves for when they want to leave the safe zone.

 

If that is granted, then it is automatically granted that any group of players can get organized enough to escape Alioth, go out in hiding while they grow in numbers and resources, and eventually come back to overthrow the regime on Alioth.

 

In other words whatever imbalance may occur it should always be possible to restore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can almost guarantee there will be a group of players who will try and lock down Alioth early on unless there are measures in place to prevent this. There are orgs/players who will consider that a perfectly acceptable and normal play style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

I can almost guarantee there will be a group of players who will try and lock down Alioth early on unless there are measures in place to prevent this. There are orgs/players who will consider that a perfectly acceptable and normal play style.

I was thinking about what it would be like to set up on Alioth but then I thought about every new player on release, the most players together on one planet (possibly for a long while) all digging holes around the first planet looking for resources. Alioth is going to be a wasteland in many places. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, blazemonger said:

I can almost guarantee there will be a group of players who will try and lock down Alioth early on unless there are measures in place to prevent this. There are orgs/players who will consider that a perfectly acceptable and normal play style.

I think the hope from nq is that the low level of the initial player base and lack of constructs will make this kind of a task nearly impossible for several months. In some of the older videos JC was saying it may take a month for the first players to get to space. Combine that with the size of alioth and the safe zone, by the time an org was large enough to lock it down there will be so many ways out(MSA, hidden bases etc) that locking down the safe zone will probably not be worth the effort unless its specifically to lock down a single enemy org or something. 

 

I think ultimately that is the difference between ARK and DU. The play space, even without jump gates and what not, is so large it will be impractical for one group to try to control things. The problem with ark and rust is that its very very easy for a smallish group of players with a bit of an advantage(first quetz/giga or good blueprint) to control the entire play space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/04/2018 at 1:47 AM, Orius said:

Novaquark, you have been warned. 

This is the sort of statement made by one of those guys with wild hair, dirty clothes and screams the end of the world is coming. :P

 

More seriously, their aim is obviously to have a game more like EVE than ARK. Where the single universe is too large for any one group to control it all, too many ways for small groups to grab a foothold, build themselves up and take a piece of that pie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

Then we'll have BOO1, BOO2, BOO3, ..., BOO69, ect.

A lot of hassle for everyone (players, devs), and doesn't really help much.

Why would it be hassle for the Devs, I'm not following?

Please give me a reason.

 

Hassle for the orgs is exactly what this system is for. Most players are not interested in hassle. Thus orgs would tend to fragment under their own bureaucracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

This is the sort of statement made by one of those guys with wild hair, dirty clothes and screams the end of the world is coming. :P

 

More seriously, their aim is obviously to have a game more like EVE than ARK. Where the single universe is too large for any one group to control it all, too many ways for small groups to grab a foothold, build themselves up and take a piece of that pie.

The big orgs will grab the best spots first (due to numbers) and force the smaller orgs out of spots they have taken (due to numbers)... They will entirely control regions of space (due to numbers) and have the best and cheapest ship blueprints and charge outsiders an arm and a leg for them. Individuals will be the worst off and have to scrape a living from the cracks and detritus that the big orgs can't be bothered with.   Solo players will end up with a game like Elite Dangerous but without the security. They will have no role other than avoiding fuel shortages, no real achievements outside a little crowded pocket in a safe zone and will have the privilege of fulfilling contracts that big orgs will welsh on when they feel like it.

 

Or they could create a system that prevents orgs from getting too large.

 

Basically EVE "no man is an island" with voxels. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GraXXoR said:

Why would it be hassle for the Devs, I'm not following?

Please give me a reason.

 

Hassle for the orgs is exactly what this system is for. Most players are not interested in hassle. Thus orgs would tend to fragment under their own bureaucracy.

They need to create tax system, as there is no such thing. Then they need to constantly keep its level balanced, based on world population. Because 50 people may be a lot if it's low, and 500 may be not that much if it's high.

 

It would also break the core concept "we give you tools, but won't interfere in actual gameplay (unless someone really break the game)".

Not to mention it's artificial as fuck.

 

Orgs would just use external sites for management, rather than in-game system.

Most players won't be affected much, as they are just grunts (of the winning biggest alliance).

And those few who rule and coordinate don't mind hassle at all. Some even see it as additional challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still convinced none of the current organisations will come out on top once the game starts. I have yet to see an org with leadership that actually leads and manages the org instead of just playing house as 'I am the CEO of the org'. I've mentioned this before but there are several huge usergroups that will come into the game full force once it gets going. They have 'scouts' in the pre-alpha to work out the basics and will come in with serious numbers and a proper leadership/management structure once the game opens up. These are the orgs that will grab the power and control resources.

 

Some of these are major corporations in EVE, others are huge online MMORPG communities tied to streamers and content creators.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...