Jump to content
VeridianX

Builder robots for large scale builds

Recommended Posts

as i heard NPC or NQ called bot will use to make the foundation of money (Quanta ) to begin the economic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Reptoks said:

As far as i know, there will be a very amount of NPC that will involved in the game itself.

The building & construction activities will be fully done by the player

There wont be any NPCs in DU- only market bots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

So in the end new bro will have little ( or none ) game experience, money, resource, knowledge, skill, way to go( mean what to do), cant even mining to get better life because automation make ore so cheap to the point you can trash it without regret. Cant join building operation because automation is cheap labor than you, cant even get out of safe zone without being scam or rob.

 

So please englighten me to know what other job you are meaning ?

Mining wont be automated. Individuals might be more experienced than a new bro with mining  but there wont be any mining automation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Mining wont be automated. Individuals might be more experienced than a new bro with mining  but there wont be any mining automation.

heh ? I didnt say automation is real, just wonder other guy point when he say there is other job for newbie even we got automation so i just ask him which job will newbie can do. I totally know that no automation mate lol, read my comment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Reptoks said:

As far as i know, there will be a very amount of NPC that will involved in the game itself.

I'm presuming you mean a very small amount, and yeah, that's what NQ wants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think a lot of you understand the scope of what NQ wants this game to be. From what I have understood from all the information presented in the past, progress in this game is going to take time. If I remember correctly, it will be many days before a ship is even able to leave the planet. This isn't going to be your standard arcade style MMO. This game is meant to be invested in with your time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Automated mining creates a feedback loop of "mine resources -> build miner robots (using factories, that will be in game) -> mine more resources -> build more miner bots -> mine more resources...", making someone/someorg (who start doing it first) super-reach and powerfull, or making resources dirt cheap and automated mining doesn't give you a lot of cool capabilities, other that just mining.

At the same time automated building does not create a feedback loop, because you can't build more builders without the resources. And automated building of at least voxel structures (without putting the elements) controlled from Lua will allow you to do the following cool things: robot that build procedurally generated mazes (yeah, I already named it earlier in this topic), robot that automatically repairs hull of your ship/wall of your town, robot that lays voxels right in front of enemy ship's guns, robot that obstructs internals of enemy ship with walls and all sorts of crazy stuff someone will think of. And when talking about lost jobs for newbies, let's not forget about the fact, that there already will be factories in the game.

About the jobs: wha are the newbie jobs other than mining and building? Let's see: trucker and taxi driver (land and space versions), crew member on a big ship (gunner for example), infantryman, maintainer of a automated things (remember the fact that Lua-controlled things will only work around player?) who also guards (or at least pushes alarm button in case of danger) and probably operates them a bit, geological exploration (walk around in unexplored regions and look for deposits with scanning equipment).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Luckily"? I will confess that I believe in a fully automated economy IRL so hopefully you guys will understand where I am coming from.  But there are diffrences in DU and in real life that I will have to recognize - notably the fact that people just appear without an established place in society, and that we are building up a society without *any* centralized control, differently from a real life space colony or in general. 

 

What if instead of limiting the software we limited the hardware? So we got limited processing power, storage, RAM, etc as well as large amounts of power draw and heat for the in-game computers? Basically limit the game to vaccum tubes and very early transistor technology.

 

On the original subject though, we are going to need methods of interacting with different voxels and functional elements(i,.e. storage containers). I think NQ has said they don't plan to add in drill elements, automated or not (i.e. no drilling ships). 

 

The lack of advanced automation will probably encourage more multiboxxing as programs can be written using xdotool and a VM with windows and GPU passthrough to turn yourself into a scripted robot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

heh ? I didnt say automation is real, just wonder other guy point when he say there is other job for newbie even we got automation so i just ask him which job will newbie can do. I totally know that no automation mate lol, read my comment

I just re-read your comment, that whole paragraph seemed to imply there were large amounts of automation..... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Whalekit said:

About the jobs: wha are the newbie jobs other than mining and building? Let's see: trucker and taxi driver (land and space versions), crew member on a big ship (gunner for example), infantryman, maintainer of a automated things (remember the fact that Lua-controlled things will only work around player?) who also guards (or at least pushes alarm button in case of danger) and probably operates them a bit, geological exploration (walk around in unexplored regions and look for deposits with scanning equipment).

Voilà, ShioriStein, this is what I was talking about when I was talking about "many other things to do" (thanks Whalekit, well said ;)).

 

Lethys, you answered my questions about how EVE works on what DU will be similar to. And I think I understand what devs want to avoid for DU and why you don't like this idea ether.

 

0something0, there is some ways to avoid scripted robot, to make them impossible to use, isn't it ? So NQ will probably do something against that without adding full automation, as they will consider this behavior as cheating. So how is this a problem ? Is it that hard to forbid this kind of gameplay ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

I just re-read your comment, that whole paragraph seemed to imply there were large amounts of automation..... 

hmm i just assume there will to understand his point, when if it is ... and then what. So dont pay too much about automation but what happen if we got full automation.

 

8 hours ago, Whalekit said:

Automated mining creates a feedback loop of "mine resources -> build miner robots (using factories, that will be in game) -> mine more resources -> build more miner bots -> mine more resources...", making someone/someorg (who start doing it first) super-reach and powerfull, or making resources dirt cheap and automated mining doesn't give you a lot of cool capabilities, other that just mining.

At the same time automated building does not create a feedback loop, because you can't build more builders without the resources. And automated building of at least voxel structures (without putting the elements) controlled from Lua will allow you to do the following cool things: robot that build procedurally generated mazes (yeah, I already named it earlier in this topic), robot that automatically repairs hull of your ship/wall of your town, robot that lays voxels right in front of enemy ship's guns, robot that obstructs internals of enemy ship with walls and all sorts of crazy stuff someone will think of. And when talking about lost jobs for newbies, let's not forget about the fact, that there already will be factories in the game.

I agree that there seem would be no loss when we got full automation mining. When all ore is cheap even a newbie can mining and sell it with cheap price but it will be consider normal that time. So newbie basically will live like normal and happy after all. Then what they do next, mining ? Who cant mine. Even in EVE i as new player can mine but that time... aside from mining i dont know what to do next. Lack of experience, dont got knowledge about situation and thing, still not used to EvE control aside from basic mining. That is where newbie need, real and working in game tutorial. I have told many time in my thread, mining not only because of money but the experience, instruction and knowledge from the mining operation, which their boss as veteran player may help them, help them to get used to game control and gameplay also give them basical knowledge. Dont tell me watch on youtube, youtube experience and real experience in game always different, if anyone can watch youtube and boom become normal - advanced player this reply wont be here. So in the end my thought that from mining operation will give the player deeper know about the game to make their way easy then.

 

8 hours ago, Whalekit said:

At the same time automated building does not create a feedback loop, because you can't build more builders without the resources. And automated building of at least voxel structures (without putting the elements) controlled from Lua will allow you to do the following cool things: robot that build procedurally generated mazes (yeah, I already named it earlier in this topic), robot that automatically repairs hull of your ship/wall of your town, robot that lays voxels right in front of enemy ship's guns, robot that obstructs internals of enemy ship with walls and all sorts of crazy stuff someone will think of. And when talking about lost jobs for newbies, let's not forget about the fact, that there already will be factories in the game

Oky i agree with you like mining, there wont be any loss but just like mining, still tutorial. But isnt factory unit to create medium ship to small ship like fighter ? i doubt it cant make a mother ship or battle ship then... can they ?

 

8 hours ago, Whalekit said:

mining and building? Let's see: trucker and taxi driver (land and space versions), crew member on a big ship (gunner for example), infantryman, maintainer of a automated things (remember the fact that Lua-controlled things will only work around player?) who also guards (or at least pushes alarm button in case of danger) and probably operates them a bit, geological exploration (walk around in unexplored regions and look for deposits with scanning equipment).

Okay you got your point here, you seem put a lot of trust to those newbie who not play the game for even 3-4 month ? Even so you still trust them to give them a ship and become taxi, a cargo ship to become trucker and a slot on your ship to operate it even they only know basical control and little knowledge about game ( like where is danger zone, war zone. I hope there will be none a taxi go to war zone or danger of pirate zone right ?) . Ah you even trust them to code for you even they just newbie. I respect your will and good intention. Despite the risk of troll, grifer, spy, betrayl you still trust them no mater what. Dont think wrong about my word, I dont say joke about it, I cant be a merci guy like you so I really think we should have more people like you so newbie and comunity will be a lot better.

 

But sad it seem there are not many people like you in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I write down here refers to the late game.

 

We had a similar discussion on our discord and how we imagine mining on a larger scale. It's a paradox: We travel from Earth with spaceships to create a new home in the new world. However, mining is still to be done by hand, although everything around is much more developed.

 

I don't want automation with a robot, but what speaks against mounting drill heads on the ships (inclusive transport pipes)?
The drilling speed can be the same as dismantling by hand. Personally, I would not have a problem if it was slower than by hand. 

The advantage would definitely be the inventory of the ship that is available. 

 

 

- You have more than just the hand to mine something.
- You can build ships that are specialized (As you can see in the tutorial videos, weight and additional elements can play a role)

 

I have great hopes that Novaquark will introduce equivalent additions / elements to the Nanoformer, as an example a drill head for the spaceship. I would like to mention Space Engineers and Empyrion as reference, which have done a very good job in the core game mechanics. Here the player grows with his environment. And that's what I want for Dual Universe too.

 

Edit: 

Oh ... and why not a Welder element too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

Okay you got your point here, you seem put a lot of trust to those newbie who not play the game for even 3-4 month ? Even so you still trust them to give them a ship and become taxi, a cargo ship to become trucker and a slot on your ship to operate it even they only know basical control and little knowledge about game ( like where is danger zone, war zone. I hope there will be none a taxi go to war zone or danger of pirate zone right ?) . Ah you even trust them to code for you even they just newbie. I respect your will and good intention. Despite the risk of troll, grifer, spy, betrayl you still trust them no mater what. Dont think wrong about my word, I dont say joke about it, I cant be a merci guy like you so I really think we should have more people like you so newbie and comunity will be a lot better.

 

But sad it seem there are not many people like you in the game.

 

You know, you can make newbies pass tests to know how trustworthy they are.

You can also explain them some tips for their job. For a taxi : "you should go this way to avoid pirates" for exemple.

 

it's like in real life. When you applie for a job, the company don't know you, if you are really qualified for this job, if they can trust you (have you lied on your CV ? ... ). So you pass tests, you have some documents to show how qualified you are, what are your motivations, etc.

 

In the game, the work you have to do is a lot easier than in real life (hopefully), so you don't need certifications, you don't need years of work to know how to do some things. But yet, you have to show that you are a reliable person, your motivations. You will then know your job by some tips first, and the your own experience.

 

For basic gameplay, you still can mine, even if it's not usefull at all. It'll still works.

 

 

 

But again, I know and understand full automated systems will not be possible in DU. Still, new players will be able to do what I explain above, with the difference that they will not have to applie for jobs like that in the first place. It will also greatly depend on how the player progression will work (there will certainly be many things we will not be able to do in the begining).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SirJohn85 said:

What I write down here refers to the late game.

 

We had a similar discussion on our discord and how we imagine mining on a larger scale. It's a paradox: We travel from Earth with spaceships to create a new home in the new world. However, mining is still to be done by hand, although everything around is much more developed.

 

I don't want automation with a robot, but what speaks against mounting drill heads on the ships (inclusive transport pipes)?
The drilling speed can be the same as dismantling by hand. Personally, I would not have a problem if it was slower than by hand. 

The advantage would definitely be the inventory of the ship that is available. 

 

 

- You have more than just the hand to mine something.
- You can build ships that are specialized (As you can see in the tutorial videos, weight and additional elements can play a role)

 

I have great hopes that Novaquark will introduce equivalent additions / elements to the Nanoformer, as an example a drill head for the spaceship. I would like to mention Space Engineers and Empyrion as reference, which have done a very good job in the core game mechanics. Here the player grows with his environment. And that's what I want for Dual Universe too.

 

Edit: 

Oh ... and why not a Welder element too?

Well NQ said that they will add more mining method after launch as the game update or expansion. They say also type Building mining like a Builldozer .

But they confirm there will be no mining ship.

 

53 minutes ago, Vinux37 said:

You know, you can make newbies pass tests to know how trustworthy they are.

Yes but still the risk of troll, grifer, betrayer ( send from other  Org to spy or strike you when your Org is in chaos) 

 

56 minutes ago, Vinux37 said:

it's like in real life. When you applie for a job, the company don't know you, if you are really qualified for this job, if they can trust you (have you lied on your CV ? ... ). So you pass tests, you have some documents to show how qualified you are, what are your motivations, etc.

 

In the game, the work you have to do is a lot easier than in real life (hopefully), so you don't need certifications, you don't need years of work to know how to do some things. But yet, you have to show that you are a reliable person, your motivations. You will then know your job by some tips first, and the your own experience.

Yes that is basically for you to enter a job, even in DU will be so. But as i say "Not many people like you" mean that they still prefer to employ Veteran player or 3-6 month player than a newbie. And of course there wont be many people will tired doing the CV to employ newbie and have to teach them play the game, they will move to choose old player anyway.

Also the job you say, yes there will be people like you who employ newbie to join and take a job you assign for but sadly not many of you, so only a part of newbie can get a job / got help from old player. And the rest have to learn by themselves or doing themselves or even decide to make a org with other newbie and start to help other yes may good but also disband very fast because of troll, greed and other ( i have witness this many time in other game, i'm one of them too but not got so much damage when i'm only give aid to them to start, the other squad/clan/guild have disband because the troll / greed newbie and ruin them) . So in the end only a part of the rest of the newbie will can advanced and become a normal player but the rest will find the game boring because they dont see any way for them to go and then quit.

So NQ idea that no automate force the player to work together is the best way to go, no? There will still be amount of newbie abandone the game but at least we can keep the 70-80% amount of newbie to stay and play the game ?

In the end, your point is true i cant say anything but still one thing is i have said many time. The people like you not much in game. And NQ word is: "Solo player can do many thing but not everything" .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SirJohn85 said:

 

We had a similar discussion on our discord and how we imagine mining on a larger scale. It's a paradox: We travel from Earth with spaceships to create a new home in the new world. However, mining is still to be done by hand, although everything around is much more developed.

 

 

 

A hand that can dematerialize matter and rematerialize in various objects and vectored shapes. And you want to use a good old drill. Which sounds more developed? Well I guess if you mean to put that same dematerializing tech on a bigger rig, I guess that's arguably possible. But I'm sure that due some nanite-excuse it can't.

 

Back to a previously named new-guy issue, regarding the variety of jobs. I've before laid out what the various phases are for a new society. Based on that analysis I'm confident we need not to worry about the new guy from an NQ perspective. Only from a community perspective.

 

As a community we are in the perfect position to, based on the basic needs for a player, write a base-law describing the basic-player-rights. For example, the ruling organizations could agree on a law that says "an affordable start in a free area" could be a basic law.

 

Of course that is just a spitball example, because it's all big time speculation untill release. But we're competent enough to eventually create our own solution to any social issue WITHOUT the hand of NQ.

 

EDIT: Let me add to that statement that we are also going to encounter situations that can be used as exploits, the sort that could be of bad influence on new players. It would, of course be in every org's best interest to prevent this. Whatever is healthy to the community, to keep this society running is what will be sacred... And a healthy new guy is a great part of this. Ergo again, trust the community to handle the new guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Omfgreenhair said:

A hand that can dematerialize matter and rematerialize in various objects and vectored shapes. And you want to use a good old drill. Which sounds more developed?

From the technological stand the hand. From a useful stand, the drill. It makes a significant difference if the carrying capacity of a spaceship, as example,  is 300% higher than that of the avatar.

We can now hang on small things or you can just try to follow the basic idea further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

From the technological stand the hand. From a useful stand, the drill. It makes a significant difference if the carrying capacity of a spaceship, as example,  is 300% higher than that of the avatar.

We can now hang on small things or you can just try to follow the basic idea further.

I admit, it was a weak counter argument on my part because I haven't found a good reason why this tech can't be rigged on something bigger. If we're talking talking capacity, then you do have a point. A rig could house more cargo capacity. Didn't I see the possibility to have a self programmed drone follow you around in one of these LUA videos? This could solve that problem.

 

Only thing I could think of that a rig with mining equipment has benefits is if the mining equipment harvests a higher quantity/quality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Omfgreenhair said:

I admit, it was a weak counter argument on my part because I haven't found a good reason why this tech can't be rigged on something bigger. If we're talking talking capacity, then you do have a point. A rig could house more cargo capacity. Didn't I see the possibility to have a self programmed drone follow you around in one of these LUA videos? This could solve that problem.

 

Only thing I could think of that a rig with mining equipment has benefits is if the mining equipment harvests a higher quantity/quality.

Absolutely, that's the point that somehow does not want to go into my head. I also remember this following drone. And that's just the question I ask myself:

 

If I can do that following drone, why is not there an alternative method to mine? Why is someone forcing me to use my hand?

Of course, sure, the balance must be maintained. It should not be OP. 

 

I can not and will not speak for our mining organizations, but personally I can not imagine in my subjective view that mining would be fun for me.

If you want mining to be a profession, it needs progression and scaling to make it appealable. 

 

I absolutely understand that NQ has thought over one or two things to economics.
And if they're worried that the players are progressing too fast, then they should increase the planet size with intercept theorem.

 

Just for example: Space Engineers - It currently takes 45 minutes to fly around a 50k radius planet at 115 m/s.

 

There is a solution for everything.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

If I can do that following drone, why is not there an alternative method to mine? Why is someone forcing me to use my hand?

Of course, sure, the balance must be maintained. It should not be OP. 

Oh yay we dont have to mining the same method forever also only use hand mining. NQ have said there will be more mining equipment ( which use on your hand) and building with mining equipment ( I guess we will got some kind digging machine ? ).

But yeah all of it will be working with player control it. Also NQ have confirm many time, MINING SHIP will be not in game (forever) so dont hope about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

Also NQ have confirm many time, MINING SHIP will be not in game (forever) so dont hope about it.

Only because they sad that, doesn't mean it's absolutely certain.

It only means that they will only ever implement it, if the other option(s) is(are) way worse.

 

I can understand why they don't want mining ships:
Less people will be able to get more resources faster, which means that corperations doesn't need so many people to become powerfull.

Also you will be able to build bigger ships more easily because the resources are cheaper.

And not to mention, that you would be able to build automated mining drones, because every element on a ship is (and needs to be) Lua controlled.

 

I personally would prefere if you could build mining ships, stations and drones, because I don't think that this would be a simple money printer:

You still need to scan the deposit per hand.

Mining ships / drones need to be build and protected while mining.

Mining equipment is (should be) expensive.

And minig stations can't move.

 

The argument "new players need hand-mining to earn money" isn't that valid imo, because first, it assumes that you have a constant stream of new players (pyramid scheme?) who will mine for the coperation and also, why should they only be able to get money through mining?

They can use the mined resources and build their own ship and earn money with that.

 

However, we should first wait and see until mining is properly implemented in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL is this still going on even after NQ has stated it will be very limited on what drones and AI can do in the game they even have LORE / STORY on why its not used, and then they stated they want a player interactive and immerse mmo game.  It seems like some people don't want to be craftsmen and do the work themselves they would rather have a drone or AI pump out thousands or more units like there own personal factory or mine tones of ore while they sleep which seems more like a solo game to me and not very players interactive or immerse.

 

If you had a near terminator experience would you still use AI's ?  =) Reminds me of the guy that wanted to piolet and be able to fire all the weapons of the death star by himself at one time but see nothing wrong with that ?  =)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/1/2018 at 12:47 AM, Takao said:

The argument "new players need hand-mining to earn money" isn't that valid imo, because first, it assumes that you have a constant stream of new players (pyramid scheme?) who will mine for the coperation and also, why should they only be able to get money through mining?

They can use the mined resources and build their own ship and earn money with that.

this make me sure that you arent reading all of my reply. I didnt only say 'mining is need or only way for newbie ' . Just tutorial to get used with the game.

 

I totally agree they can mine and get a ship out of there until someone blow them up the moment they are out of safe zone or just space. If they can make it to space ... but what to do next ? Mining again or go find some job to have the risk of scamming, robbing, pirate.

On 21/1/2018 at 12:47 AM, Takao said:

personally would prefere if you could build mining ships, stations and drones, because I don't think that this would be a simple money printer:

You still need to scan the deposit per hand.

Mining ships / drones need to be build and protected while mining.

Mining equipment is (should be) expensive.

And minig stations can't move.

yes it is your thought and here also my thought. Expensive you say but how much is expensive for a mining device which mine the ore to make itself ? If it expensive we just have to build more and more mining drone, device until we can make it everyday. Mining is the gate for resource to get in used. If too few resource pass the gate all you need to do is a bigger gate. Scan is not a problem when you may only need one skilful player which also can be you.

 

On 21/1/2018 at 12:47 AM, Takao said:

However, we should first wait and see until mining is properly implemented in the game.

Well if you go to wiki and dev diary you can properly see their mining idea now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, GunDeva said:

LOL is this still going on even after NQ has stated it will be very limited on what drones and AI can do in the game they even have LORE / STORY on why its not used, and then they stated they want a player interactive and immerse mmo game.  It seems like some people don't want to be craftsmen and do the work themselves they would rather have a drone or AI pump out thousands or more units like there own personal factory or mine tones of ore while they sleep which seems more like a solo game to me and not very players interactive or immerse.

 

If you had a near terminator experience would you still use AI's ?  =) Reminds me of the guy that wanted to piolet and be able to fire all the weapons of the death star by himself at one time but see nothing wrong with that ?  =)

"Near terminator experience"

 

If you read the lore carefully you will see that it was the PEOPLE, not the ROBOTS who rebeled. #AiDidNothingWrong and the game is set a couple generations after the whole thing happened. Its mostly the social stigma against ai, not the threat of ai themselves that are preventing the use of them. 

 

As for the whole "dont want to he ctaftsmen", you people dont appreciate the art of making the whole thing work. Security is also a concern and its very difficult to program automated turrets. Besides, there can be limits so one person cant build large structures or machines in reasonable amounts of time, or so they emit large amounts of heat which require vulnerable facilities to get rid of. Besides, this kind of "factory" automation only requires that robots can craft and interact with inventory constructs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...