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VeridianX

Builder robots for large scale builds

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I had an idea for a system that could possibly be implemented for large scale builds. If you were to say build a giant structure, it would probably be quite hard to complete with a small amount of people, or by yourself. 

 

My idea is robotic builders that you can tell to build something. It work work something like this:

You would have a free-camera system where you could build something in it, kind of like a game building software or something like that with the free floating camera. In it you would have the ability to freely place materials or whatever you can. You could create something, upload it to a robot you have build or bought, give the robot materials, and then it would start to build. This could make it so that players could more easily take on larger scale builds.

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Automatisms for building (and other game aspects) will not be part of the game. Dual Universe is not a single player game, it's multiplayer. If you can't build or afford a construct allone, then you will not be able to maintain it, too.

They have, however, sad that a "construction mode" where you can design a construct without limitations is considered, but not a priority.

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I like the idea, but I think  rather than individual game mechanic it should be something that is implementable using Lua and in-game Lua-controllble elements.

So, you would have Lua software you would use to create model (which would be just Lua variable), and then builder robot would build it.

Another application for that from the top of my head: with bulding machines that can be controlled from Lua you can create a robot, that builds, for example, procedurally generated mazes!

And good thing about it is that it's not gonna ruin economy like automated mining would.

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3 minutes ago, Whalekit said:

I like the idea, but I think  rather than individual game mechanic it should be something that is implementable using Lua and in-game Lua-controllble elements.

So, you would have Lua software you would use to create model (which would be just Lua variable), and then builder robot would build it.

Another application for that from the top of my head: with bulding machines that can be controlled from Lua you can create a robot, that builds, for example, procedurally generated mazes!

And good thing about it is that it's not gonna ruin economy like automated mining would.

Fully automated building could actually hurt the economy, and JC said they would put limits on how you automate your factories.  I don’t think there are any details yet released.

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I don't think building large constructs will be all that much harder then small.  You don't have to place each voxel one at a time.  Assuming you have enough materials, you can place a hundred voxels as fast as you can place one.

 

What takes time is the details.  Planning out the interior layout.  Element placement and LUA.

 

What takes time is the decisions that need to be made.

 

What we will be able to do is pay someone else to do all or some of it for us if we want,  by buying a Blueprint.

 

 

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On 14/01/2018 at 12:50 AM, VeridianX said:

If you were to say build a giant structure, it would probably be quite hard to complete with a small amount of people, or by yourself. 

That is intentional. DU want to promote cooperation. 

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2 hours ago, Felonu said:

...and JC said they would put limits on how you automate your factories.  ...

That might be a little discouraging. It wouldn't make much sense in a SciFi esque game to do a lot of manual labor. Automation in the refining process would have a logical place in the order of things. It could be immersion breaking to not to.

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Dual Universe n'est pas un jeu de simulation spatiale. C'est un jeu multi-joueurs ou les developpeurs veulent créer de l'échange entre joueurs. 

 

translate google:


Dual Universe is not a space simulation game. It's a multiplayer game where the developers want to create an exchange between players.

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21 minutes ago, Omfgreenhair said:

That might be a little discouraging. It wouldn't make much sense in a SciFi esque game to do a lot of manual labor. Automation in the refining process would have a logical place in the order of things. It could be immersion breaking to not to.

Yeah and new player join the game will dying too. They put limit not all because economy but because the new guy will join so they will have job to do. Not all thing manual labor where you create element with machine, it just mining and building and maintain a ship ( if it need ) . "Re:build the civilization together", they got intention when said that, you cant one man rebuild the civilization.

In the end you see newbie (like me) will need a job to keep them stay at the game while they learrning about how to play game, so building and mining for hired will be best for them to get experience and some money to start :).

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Just now, Quaideluz said:


Dual Universe is not a space simulation game. It's a multiplayer game where the developers want to create an exchange between players.

Nah not exchange, we still can be "Han Solo" but it will be very very very very very very x ??? difficult life and boring, no ?

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6 hours ago, Felonu said:

Fully automated building could actually hurt the economy, and JC said they would put limits on how you automate your factories.  I don’t think there are any details yet released.

Well experts in real life are not sure what automation would do to the economy(I , for one, support fully automated luxury space post-scarcity economy)  so lets just add automation and see what happens and make our predictions off that! (though to be fair for that to be valid there needs to be an economy with a lot of manual labor and see how automation will affect it so automation need to be added after launch to more accuratly simulate the effects of it to the economy.)  

 

4 hours ago, Omfgreenhair said:

That might be a little discouraging. It wouldn't make much sense in a SciFi esque game to do a lot of manual labor. Automation in the refining process would have a logical place in the order of things. It could be immersion breaking to not to.

One thing I find hypocritical is that there will be no doubt a lot of automation in the devices that we use like fly-by-wire in cockpits, automatic rod controls in nuclear reactors, automatic engine controlls, higher level languages, etc. If NQ wanted to truely elimnate automation, all those processes should be done by people. Then we got Dune Online. Without the Spice. But I digress. The thing is that automation is heavily looked down around here, espacially by a certain motor. 

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2 hours ago, 0something0 said:

Well experts in real life are not sure what automation would do to the economy(I , for one, support fully automated luxury space post-scarcity economy)  so lets just add automation and see what happens and make our predictions off that! (though to be fair for that to be valid there needs to be an economy with a lot of manual labor and see how automation will affect it so automation need to be added after launch to more accuratly simulate the effects of it to the economy.)  

 

One thing I find hypocritical is that there will be no doubt a lot of automation in the devices that we use like fly-by-wire in cockpits, automatic rod controls in nuclear reactors, automatic engine controlls, higher level languages, etc. If NQ wanted to truely elimnate automation, all those processes should be done by people. Then we got Dune Online. Without the Spice. But I digress. The thing is that automation is heavily looked down around here, espacially by a certain motor. 

I think part of the problem is that the concept of automation can be interpreted in different ways.

 

In a way the tech of Dual Universe is far beyond robots doing things for us already.  We can de-materialize matter and store it in our suit,  and then shoot it back out in any shape we want.  So we definitely won't have to lay bricks one at a time or weld seams to build stuff.  So in that sense technology is already automating things for us.

 

But NQ does have to make a fun game for us to play too.  So i can understand them needing to keep some things like gathering materials manual.  Even if it doesn't exactly line up in terms of realism.

 

Automating resource gathering might be good for the economy overall.  But eventually  the value of resources would go down as they start to be gathered in larger quantities.  Which would make it less and less viable as an activity and a way for new players to get started in the game.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, 0something0 said:

One thing I find hypocritical is that there will be no doubt a lot of automation in the devices that we use like fly-by-wire in cockpits, automatic rod controls in nuclear reactors, automatic engine controlls, higher level languages, etc. If NQ wanted to truely elimnate automation, all those processes should be done by people. Then we got Dune Online. Without the Spice. But I digress. The thing is that automation is heavily looked down around here, espacially by a certain motor. 

What you want is an unfun and plain boring game for everyone.

 

Instead NQ gives players a FUN part to do If they wish to do it (lua) but you don't HAVE to. 

 

It's a game after all.

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9 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Automating resource gathering might be good for the economy overall.  But eventually  the value of resources would go down as they start to be gathered in larger quantities.  Which would make it less and less viable as an activity and a way for new players to get started in the game.

 

This, right here. Although, automation or not, this is a faith bound to happen eventually. As I see it, we got three phases.

Phase 1, pioneer era.
This era is the closed Alpha up to open Beta part, where we explore the direct area around spawn and setup camp. Eventually around the full release of the game Phase 2 kicks in.

Phase 2, colonization era.

Creation of living areas inside orginisation controlled sectors, build permits, clean up of phallus objects and ugly square abandoned bases. At this point most of the resources in the direct enviroment of the spawn will have been picked clean of resources.

Phase 3, industrialization and expansion

The era after the first year of game release is likely when, if new players spawn, they either have to travel on foot or take a public transport (setup probably by carebear organisations) to transport you to outside the city area where folks can go pioneer on their own or perhaps stay in town to find an org to join for mining operations to earn a quick buck.

 

So yeah, during the end of the second and all through the third phase the experience and expectations are different for new player than for the first phase boiiz and grills. This isn't unfair or boring for new players. In fact I think it's a trip if you consider that you spawn in a virtual city completely build by hand and by people who came before you, as a form of inspiration of  what you can do outside there.

 

Now not to deviate too much from the main topic Automating, I guess the game is too early in development yet to judge what type of automatation is good or bad.

 

Also we don't have to worry about the new guy. It would be in the community's best interest to take good care of the new guy to keep the game alive. Again, trust the community to take care of these things. The new guy who arrives one year after release won't know what'll hit him *grin*.

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Automation is good too some point but too much will make thing so easy and unfun.

 

I know someone only want to join big battle, massive war but tired of grinding or waiting your sla... i mean worker grinding the materrial enough and then keep waiting your ship slowly build. So automation will solve it, you dont have to think about anything and join the fun part only. But this is DU, MMORPG so you have to think about roleplay and war like real life. If you push war too much or long war it will make your resource run out very fast, and make you have to push your slave er i mean worker to work harder, and then they will breakout and stop working and leaving your org to death end by run out of resource, it is fun to see the fallen of a big Org because of that reason. So in the end automation will make you dont need to think about that problem because machine dont have ' morale ' . But that will decrease the tense, fun of the game, and NQ of course will not accept so do a lot of guy. Remember when you start something you have to caculate the cost and maintain for it or else you doom =)). It make us got sense of proud and know to value thing even the most common resource.

 

Also it give the new guy job in building or mining operation. So the player base will keep increase, Org will seem have outpost near Ark ship to always recruit new slave ops is worker for them when new guy is log in. So the new guy not only player but become the back bone of the economy and also the game. Also the time they spend when in mining or building operation will give them some experience or even more information about the game, just like a tutorial but not npc give them quest but their boss, a player, will do it.  It will be win - win if we dont have automation ... too much. What is more fun than see your slave gather resource/ building construct for you ? Feel like a true boss.

 

And we arent be friend with nano mining on our hand entire game, NQ confirm that there will be more mining device or building device but will be release after the game open  as expansion ( free ) .

 

No automation it like rock age, so we need only enough automation to the point that newbie have job to do. this isnt real life so much, where player can join and leave if they want. Real life you cant left ( unless you go to heaven realm ) so automation dont have too much impact on economy, the people dont have job still suffer to live day by day and cant do a thing about it. So stop complaining why no automation when DU is high tech, because player base of course, real life dont need player base so much( I mean not everyone can leave your country easy right ? but of course the country still consider about their population but they can stop them with their force, but how DU do it when it just a game on internet ? ) 

 

So i'm hoping that my thought will enough, if not please say it here too, I want to read everyone thought ( comment ) in free time to relax, yeb argument is good to improve each other.

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10 hours ago, Lethys said:

What you want is an unfun and plain boring game for everyone.

 

Instead NQ gives players a FUN part to do If they wish to do it (lua) but you don't HAVE to. 

 

It's a game after all.

 

"unfun and plain boring"

 

WRONG. Your interests may differ from mine, but personally, I am into coding and that kinda stuff. I would like for coding, logic circuits, robotics, etc to be a large part of the game.

 

"If they wish to do it (lua)"

 

which is purposely severely limited 

 

"It's a game after all"

 

Which should appeal to a wide playerbase. The game just shouldn't appeal to EVE players alone. Besides, I could make a game supposedly set in the present day but trebuchets and spears as the main weapons and say "its a game". The point is that immersion is a thing and it would be weird if there was no player-made automation but there was firmware-based automation.

 

 

 

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Yeah then ask 1000randoms to play a game where they can't do anything sophisticated if they don't have friends who can code or Code themselves. Mhm, very fun. For everyone /shrug

3 hours ago, 0something0 said:

If they wish to do it (lua)"

 

which is purposely severely limited

 

You can do more in DU than ever before in a game and can already do cool stuff with those limits (which are needed) and still complain? Oooooook

 

Please, don't ever design a game. If you do, Tell me which so i don't buy it accidently ;)

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It seems all discussions converge to the same old topics over and over again.

Well that probably just shows how controversial the opinions here are.

Regarding automated building I don’t actually think that’s an issue worth arguing too much about. NQ already confirmed that there will be factory units, and the benefits of that have already been discussed in other topics on this forum. However they will of course be limited(e.g. less efficient, slower) compared to manual building, so conventional builders won’t lose their jobs. ;)

Adding a system to auto construct capital ships using robot-drones wouldn’t be a big deal, because it’s based on the same limitations as factory units. Besides the fact that recourses still need to be gathered manually; this is a far bigger hurdle than the actual building process.

 

One genuinely new idea I take away from the OP is a free camera system for building.

This would actually be a huge improvement compared to the current building-system. So many times I fiddled around with the character-movement system, just to get my cursor on the right voxel. An advanced building interface where you could freely move the camera around, and even fly through voxels would be a great help. Essentially providing a typical 3D CAD camera interface in the game.

Ingame it could be implemented through a little drone item that has a nanoformer attached to it.

Maybe NQ is already thinking about some drone systems, as I hope this thing ->drone.jpg.c9eece94cd52db7a1ec997e0aaeec62e.jpg will do more than just look good...

This should only be intended as a late game item used by high level builder. For small ships a CAD-system would be a bit overkill, but builders on a large scale project would definitely benefit from this!

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5 hours ago, Lethys said:

Yeah then ask 1000randoms to play a game where they can't do anything sophisticated if they don't have friends who can code or Code themselves. Mhm, very fun. For everyone /shrug

 

You can do more in DU than ever before in a game and can already do cool stuff with those limits (which are needed) and still complain? Oooooook

 

Please, don't ever design a game. If you do, Tell me which so i don't buy it accidently ;)

Or, buy the automation-produced products with their starting funds(I don't like the idea of the Novark market - I think the starting funds is a better way to go since it keeps the GDP per capita of the entire playerbase at a even level). The players with the brains should succeed, not the players with the most RL money or the most game time(and therefore most trained skills). Automation will allow new players to compete with the veterans and give power to the individual and enable more freedom.

 

As for the limits, I think there should be very little. It is currently known that we can make stuff move and control things like lights and doors, but the exact extent of the limits are not known( well, for me at least. ) The big limitation to doing stuff like automated factories is the lack of modules that allow machines to modify voxels(nanoformers for robots).

 

There are still ways to make automation multiplayer-balanced, for example, making them easily hackable without proper player-made security, EMP weaponry to cripple automated systems, and massive power draw on such automated systems.

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2 hours ago, 0something0 said:

Or, buy the automation-produced products with their starting funds(I don't like the idea of the Novark market - I think the starting funds is a better way to go since it keeps the GDP per capita of the entire playerbase at a even level). The players with the brains should succeed, not the players with the most RL money or the most game time(and therefore most trained skills).

 

You can become a scammer to take their money, easy isnt it? You want the idea people with good head should be success, so i think notthing cant stop a 'smart' one doing what they want. IF someone got so much money but idiot ? Scam or rob them, lure them into some lonely space and rob all their money and ship ( i glad to see drama about someone has been scam stuff worth 5000$ rl ). And about the fund dont so worry too much, newbie after all is backbone of the entire economy also the game, they will be hunt to recuirt , or maybe no but i hope they will be valued like gold by advanced player.

Also i'm side with them, the one have so much money IRL but dont have time to play, they should have that RIGHT.

 

2 hours ago, 0something0 said:

Automation will allow new players to compete with the veterans and give power to the individual and enable more freedom.

No it isnt. Automation will make newbie harder to join the game. As i say the time they spend with mining or building operation which organize by other veteran will give them experience and also the tutorial for them to learn about the game. No npc give them quest but the player itself and it will be win - win for each side.

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6 hours ago, 0something0 said:

The players with the brains should succeed, not the players with the most RL money or the most game time(and therefore most trained skills)

which will happen without automation too, that's not dependant on lua or some machines.

In your world, vets will flood the market with cheap products which in turn makes it very hard for a newcomer to compete on that field - and the only way he can make money is mining. But you want to automate that too - so they will make even less money as they can't compete either. This leads to a similar economy like in eve, which is just bad imho.

Plus NQ said they want to avoid that

 

6 hours ago, 0something0 said:

As for the limits, I think there should be very little. It is currently known that we can make stuff move and control things like lights and doors, but the exact extent of the limits are not known( well, for me at least. ) The big limitation to doing stuff like automated factories is the lack of modules that allow machines to modify voxels(nanoformers for robots).

https://twitter.com/dualuniverse/status/934075076504440833

 

 

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On 16/01/2018 at 10:58 PM, Lethys said:

Yeah then ask 1000randoms to play a game where they can't do anything sophisticated if they don't have friends who can code or Code themselves. Mhm, very fun. For everyone /shrug

 

You can do more in DU than ever before in a game and can already do cool stuff with those limits (which are needed) and still complain? Oooooook

 

Please, don't ever design a game. If you do, Tell me which so i don't buy it accidently ;)

 

you seem to forget that, one main idea of the game is the possibility to skip what annoys you.

For exemple, if you don't want to build your ship, you can ignore that and directly buy one that is made by someone else. In the same way of thinking, if you don't want to code, you can skip this part and profit from the code of other people. Even if the game allowed full automations. There will be many other things to do.


Also, the first task in the game is not mining ... at the beginning, obviously yes, but then ? It will still be mandatory after few months, even years, but not for everyone. If a new player want to go in space and transport people from a planet to another, he can do that (maybe not a good exemple, but he can avoid the ressource gathering work ... in fact, it will strongly depend on the way we will manage our organisations, but this is an other story).


In a fully automated world, it will be the same thing. A new player will not have to be a coding master to have fun with the game, because there will be plenty of other things to do. And don't forget, the automations have purpose. They are not meant to erase small jobs such as collecting ressources (it still is a consequences, I do agree), but rather avoiding each one of us to have to mine for 10 hours in order to build the death star (for example).


An other thing, it will probably be impossible to automatise things like we are doing in our real world because it needs really complex programs that are made with an organisation that we will not be able to buid in the game (imagine a computer company with dozens of devs ... inside this game ... that will work with technologies similar to what novaquark is using. It's crazy, and I think it's impossible, even if they allow us full automation).


Soooo, all these crazy things to say that we will still have many things to do that will not be able to automatize. Even for buildings. If I want to come back to the purpose of this topic. We will be able automatize the build of one building, but if we want an other with different shapes, the machine will still need us to reprogram itself to do it. In the other side, I don't know how it will work with the building system ? I suppose it will not be as hard as in Minecraft (in survival mod) to build things. But how "easy" it will be ? I don't really ask you because I know you have to not talk about your gaming experience. Don't worry about that.

 


But then, even if I don't agree with you about the behavior of the ingame experience if we allow full automation, I am okay with the idea behind your way of thinking. Particularly because I know that we will be a big organisation, and as such, for each one of us, it's like an automation (the same way than in our lives). With the difference that, behind the fact that lots of ressources are gathered, there are dozens of citizens that works together in order to make it possible. For new player, they will experience what old ones have already experienced. And we will still be able to not be stuck in one gameplay.

 

So yeah, if the devs feels that it's not a good idea to allow full automation ... then ok, they work on the game, they know what they are doing and where they want to go. Alos It's not like everything will be manually done. We will be able to do some automations. I am completely aware of that, and ok with that. And as you say, you can already do many things.

 


The most important thing is that the game will be fun ;)

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Lua ist there for us to facilitate our lives and, as the devs said now many times, Not to kill certain jobs people may want to do.

 

My answer was more about his ..... "Idea".... to not even have the most basic systems ingame so players even HAVE TO script a power routine for example and that's just a bad idea imho. 

 

I agree with most of your points, though you forget the consequences of an automated industry. Just look at eve. As a noob you can't really live from production or mining. You can ofc, but just doing missions yields 1000% more per hour and brings you way farther. 

You lack ingame skills (which is fine, as vets who specialize should have an edge), money (to start margin trading), knowledge - which is part of the fun of learning a complicated game and is No big deal imho.

 

But first and foremost you lack bots, highly specialized equipment ("automated miners") and 10 alt accs. 

Without that you won't make enough money in eve in those professions as other players just ruin the market with cheap ore and minerals. I started mining in eve years ago with a cruiser and it was quite well payed - nowadays you would need at least 2 accs and a dedicated Mining barge. And yes, I'm only talking high sec. It gets a little better in dangerous space, but not so good that it would pay off for the risk you take alone.

 

That's why NQ is against automated Mining and every script which could render a player useless. Newbros are actually useful, No matter their skill level ingame. Orgs do profit from a newbro as He might not be as fast in mining as a vet, but He adds smth at least (which wouldn't be true in eve for instance). 

 

Mining will always be the backbone of DUs economy as it's (for now) the only quanta faucet we know of

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4 hours ago, Vinux37 said:

There will be many other things to do.

I wonder what other thing you mean for new guy.

 

I totally agree with most of your point but not this, as a new guy I really cant do thing without basic job as mining and building follow instruction, just like you have to learn how to walk before you can run, to learn more about the game.

 

You may say we got tutorial from ark ship, video on youtube to learn so what, I can do fine without mining. Okay it fine if it is you right but not the other guy. After launch the situation in the game will change very much different from the begining and not like alpha, beta stage anymore. Just like eve, got tutorial on internet, video,... but still cant properly play the game because the situation change after a short time. You is fine but not other new bro who know nothing.

 

Aside from building and mining I hardly to see any job that new bro new to game can do. You say they can code but who will hire a new guy who just log in the game and may ruin your org ?  I doubt after launch we will see some spy drama or even treason ? it only make new guy hard to do anything than because the fear of ruin. you may say they also can do that thing (ruin/troll/...)  to mining and building so I will say it hard to happen. As mining or building anything troll or ruin attempt will be easy to detect before it cause much damage, but with coding who say will know what you are doing ? If they know they dont have to hire you of course.

 

So in the end new bro will have little ( or none ) game experience, money, resource, knowledge, skill, way to go( mean what to do), cant even mining to get better life because automation make ore so cheap to the point you can trash it without regret. Cant join building operation because automation is cheap labor than you, cant even get out of safe zone without being scam or rob.

 

So please englighten me to know what other job you are meaning ?

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