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Lethys

Neutral alts - Recording battles, Interviews, News, History,...

Neutral alts - to be or not to be  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you allow neutral alts on your territory?

    • Yes
    • No, because.....(please post)
    • I don't care
  2. 2. Would you help a community project with a special PR department (discord channel, in-game meeting place,...)?

    • Yes
    • No, because....(please post)


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Hi there,

 

I'm writing this post on behalf of the DUHS (Dual Universe Historical Society)

 

We just came up with an idea:

 

As we know, every account can have three characters. What would you do with the other 2 alts?

 

We were thinking of maybe an alt like: DUHS-Writer Lethys

 

Here a few prerequisites:

 

- Such an alt would only be skilled to fly the most basic ship (later on maybe the most basic FTL ship)

- No weapon / AVA / CVC skills allowed

- No defensive (to be seen....) skills allowed

- No weapons on person or on that ship

- No trespassing of territory

- Only approved members of DUHS (maybe a public list with main character names too)

- be polite, ask before doing/recording stuff,... - don't be a jerk

- You're not allowed to use such an alt in any other way than recording stuff for DUHS (so you can't get access to a market hub your main char is banned from)

- No usage of devices which could be used to spy on others (like scanners)

- IF there is an API or something for skills, such alts have to make this API publicly available so that others can look up their skills in order to control them

 

So such an alt would only be used to record an ongoing battle for example as bystander. Or make a live-stream and comment on it (as players may be widely spread later on and can't participate if they wish). You could also record/showcase the latest model of a ship or city (let's say ODY will be very famous and are the first ones to build a deathstar for example). You could do interviews with people who witnessed something while walking through their city. Stuff like that - I think you get the idea.

 

Ofc an org would only give such alts the clearance to access their more or less public spaces - maybe later, once the reputation and trust is built, certain members get access to more restricted areas where special projects are highlighted, new techs are revealed, whatever - not a must though.

 

This is not about spying and infiltrating (as you don't get access to anything secret anyway), it's solely about recording the history of DU.

 

Let us hear your thoughts on this one

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1) No. Neutral doesn't mean trusted, and especially if there'll be a way to scan other people assets in a certain range, that would be a bad idea. 

2) I'd have choosed maybe if there was a choice, depends on the project

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1) No. Neutral doesn't mean trusted, and especially if there'll be a way to scan other people assets in a certain range, that would be a bad idea. 

2) I'd have choosed maybe if there was a choice, depends on the project

 

IF there's scanning, those alts wouldn't be allowed to use such things (as they don't have the skills anyway in order to use such devices)

 

Yes I know that this is completely based on trust, that's why you need a neutral org which has to work for their trust to be recognized as such.

 

 

Edited the OP

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It is an interesting topic that is for sure, and I am sure "free press" would certainly be a thing when it comes to DU, I am quite neutral towards the topic right now, it has its advantages and disadvantages, but if an organisation which is entirely focused on media/journalism part in DU can be good for PR in cases, like advertising products and organisations. But as you mentioned, trust is a big part of this game and the personnel who will be getting in will need to be very carefully monitored.

 

But its an interesting topic none the less and can become something more if worked on properly.

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IF there's scanning, those alts wouldn't be allowed to use such things (as they don't have the skills anyway in order to use such devices)

 

Yes I know that this is completely based on trust, that's why you need a neutral org which has to work for their trust to be recognized as such.

 

 

Edited the OP

-Depends on scan abilities (maybe the game doesn't allow you to check their skills tree, maybe there'll be basic predefined abilities, ... )

-You can gather information even without scan abilities, just being there means that you know coordinates

-Depends on the kind of org you want to go to (I'm going more pvp so I'd likely avoid unecessary risks, but a peaceful trading/mining org may allow that)

-When people trust others, usually there's a risk and there's a gain (for trading, contracts, alliance, ...) while i don't see any gain from giving a "newspaper" potentially valuable info about me

-Trusting 1 player is way different than trusting 10. 

 

Nothing personal, just an efficient way to play. I'm sure that many will like it, but from what I'm concerned, you should only gather informations from unclaimed areas (like a battle in space) or if the owner specifically allow you

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I certainly would hope to see something like this happening.

There is a need for a group of people keeping the historic record.

The community is evolving towards offering platforms to post things like this so I would be very interested in hosting said content and reading said content.

 

Although you would need to have a perfect flawless reputation to be trusted to enter the war room.

I think establishing that trust is where the difficulty of such a project would be.

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I'm torn on the poll so I didn't vote yet. A fresh brand new player will have the absolute minimum in everything, but do I let him into private org areas just because he has nothing? Probably not. Would I be more inclined to do so if he said he was with a neutral org and had no hostile intentions and was definitely not recording and promised he wouldn't sell the recording to my enemies even if he was recording? Eh.

 

Trust would be a big concern here. But there's also the matter of how important keeping secrets will be in the first place. How big of a deal is it if I have an undergorund base where I'm building a ship and someone comes in and sees it? Is that a big problem that I get upset about, or is that really not even a concern and I can just say, eh who cares. It's hard to tell at this point how big of a deal some secrets will be.

 

So, if you really want to give everyone the impression that youre Space Switzerland, you're probably going to have to keep a small team and really ensure that those people aren't doing anything shady. But it also may be less of an issue than one may initially think.

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I do think that recording the history of Dual Universe is very important, but an organization's ability to maintain trust among all of It's members will be a very big problem, as many have already noted. A better solution might be for each faction to have their own dedicated historians. 

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-Depends on scan abilities (maybe the game doesn't allow you to check their skills tree, maybe there'll be basic predefined abilities, ... )

-You can gather information even without scan abilities, just being there means that you know coordinates

-Depends on the kind of org you want to go to (I'm going more pvp so I'd likely avoid unecessary risks, but a peaceful trading/mining org may allow that)

-When people trust others, usually there's a risk and there's a gain (for trading, contracts, alliance, ...) while i don't see any gain from giving a "newspaper" potentially valuable info about me

-Trusting 1 player is way different than trusting 10. 

 

Nothing personal, just an efficient way to play. I'm sure that many will like it, but from what I'm concerned, you should only gather informations from unclaimed areas (like a battle in space) or if the owner specifically allow you

 

- Yeah, you just have to be open with every piece of information and use every possible means so people believe you

 

I'm torn on the poll so I didn't vote yet. A fresh brand new player will have the absolute minimum in everything, but do I let him into private org areas just because he has nothing? Probably not. Would I be more inclined to do so if he said he was with a neutral org and had no hostile intentions and was definitely not recording and promised he wouldn't sell the recording to my enemies even if he was recording? Eh.

 

Trust would be a big concern here. But there's also the matter of how important keeping secrets will be in the first place. How big of a deal is it if I have an undergorund base where I'm building a ship and someone comes in and sees it? Is that a big problem that I get upset about, or is that really not even a concern and I can just say, eh who cares. It's hard to tell at this point how big of a deal some secrets will be.

 

So, if you really want to give everyone the impression that youre Space Switzerland, you're probably going to have to keep a small team and really ensure that those people aren't doing anything shady. But it also may be less of an issue than one may initially think.

 

To the other points of Shynras and ATM:

 

I think you misunderstood the main intention of DUHS. We're not neccessarily only a news site. We record history.

I only mentioned that you would gain access to some areas of an org which ARE NOT public because they want to show off their creation. Like the first org which built a death star. Or the first org which build a city on the moon. If you get a certain reputation and trust that we, DUHS, are only here to record history, we might be contacted by those orgs so that they can brag about it - because DUHS might have a huge reach within the community. This would be the only news we're interested in where we would need access - because such things are historically important.

 

OFC no one in their right mind will grant you access to a base or some secret chamber - and that's not the intention.

 

If some alliance disbands or two orgs form a mega cluster, we would just do an interview.

We would only do interviews in the streets of tortuga for example, recording impressions of the city while talking to cybrex. Or talk to astrophil while we walk the palace of emberstone. Such kind of things.

 

The main difference to eve here is, that we probably don't have perma cloaks - so reporters can't just watch without risk.

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Would I let someone come into my territory from a neutral organization and interview people / hang out / record a battle? Yes :D

 

Would I let someone come into my territory from a neutral organization and see all the secret ships that I'm working on and look in my secret money vault? No XD

 

I think it's very dependent on the situation specific to each person's territory.

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I absolutely wouldn't trust a "neutral" alt. True neutrality is very hard to attain, and, as you probably can see it IRL, medias are often biased. 

(Plus I don't mind to discriminate but afaik members of DUHS can be part of many orgs at the same time. Doesn't really paint you as neutral.)

 

Before even thinking of having alts joining your org, you should make sure DUHS is trustworthy, and, for now, you probably have little ways to do so as alpha isn't out yet.

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I absolutely wouldn't trust a "neutral" alt. True neutrality is very hard to attain, and, as you probably can see it IRL, medias are often biased. 

(Plus I don't mind to discriminate but afaik members of DUHS can be part of many orgs at the same time. Doesn't really paint you as neutral.)

 

Before even thinking of having alts joining your org, you should make sure DUHS is trustworthy, and, for now, you probably have little ways to do so as alpha isn't out yet.

 

That's why I wrote:

 

"Ofc an org would only give such alts the clearance to access their more or less public spaces - maybe later, once the reputation and trust is built, certain members get access to more restricted areas where special projects are highlighted, new techs are revealed, whatever - not a must though."

 

"(...)a neutral org which has to work for their trust to be recognized as such."

 

"OFC no one in their right mind will grant you access to a base or some secret chamber - and that's not the intention."

 

As every news site, every media site and everyone is biased, you can't really avoid that.

 

BUT you can always write and make a video about both sides. This is not about writing a story, we're only interested in facts (when was the battle, who participated, why did they fight (both sides), who lost how many ships - we won't state what will happen next or something like that)

 

And I really can't see why alts should join any org in the first place for this kind of idea

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Sure you can... but say you're a member of TU and DUSH, do you think you'll be able to objectively "write and make a video about both sides" in a conflict opposing TU and a smaller org? 

> Not really. You'd be pressured by TU to paint TU in a favourable light, most likely. 

 

Also:

So such an alt would only be used to record an ongoing battle for example as bystander. Or make a live-stream and comment on it (as players may be widely spread later on and can't participate if they wish). You could also record/showcase the latest model of a ship or city (let's say ODY will be very famous and are the first ones to build a deathstar for example). You could do interviews with people who witnessed something while walking through their city. Stuff like that - I think you get the idea.

 

but

. This is not about writing a story, we're only interested in facts

 

I get that "we only do facts" can somewhat paint you as neutral, but making a live stream, record, showcase, and doing interviews isn't simply about facts, right?

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Actually I picture this exactly like real world news agencies would handle stuff like this.

All warring factions would want to record the war for propaganda reasons. Because the department of propaganda is quite essential in waging war.

 

But at the same time there is a clear need for a party that keeps the records not influenced by propaganda.

If an org like DUHS is not allowed to keep actual fact based records all conflicts would result in a he said she said affair and that serves no point other than stories to tell around the campfire.

 

I would appreciate an org like DUHS keeping real records so we can learn real things from past conflicts.

But thats just my opinion.

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- Yeah, you just have to be open with every piece of information and use every possible means so people believe you

 

 

To the other points of Shynras and ATM:

 

I think you misunderstood the main intention of DUHS. We're not neccessarily only a news site. We record history.

I only mentioned that you would gain access to some areas of an org which ARE NOT public because they want to show off their creation. Like the first org which built a death star. Or the first org which build a city on the moon. If you get a certain reputation and trust that we, DUHS, are only here to record history, we might be contacted by those orgs so that they can brag about it - because DUHS might have a huge reach within the community. This would be the only news we're interested in where we would need access - because such things are historically important.

 

OFC no one in their right mind will grant you access to a base or some secret chamber - and that's not the intention.

 

If some alliance disbands or two orgs form a mega cluster, we would just do an interview.

We would only do interviews in the streets of tortuga for example, recording impressions of the city while talking to cybrex. Or talk to astrophil while we walk the palace of emberstone. Such kind of things.

 

The main difference to eve here is, that we probably don't have perma cloaks - so reporters can't just watch without risk.

 

I'm not against the idea, I actually like it. Depends on a lot of stuff about the gameplay, infos value, ways to obtain them, ... but I'll likely be hostile against any uninvited neutral inside my land. And I'll never invite one I guess (mostly because I'm in a military org) xD. I may give informations and even screenshots if someone asks me for, as long it's not informations I consider valuable, like coordinates (so that I have control on what you get to know)

 

Depends on the situation though, I'll likely avoid any unnecessary risks. 

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Definitely no, I value my privacy. I would trust no one, every alt has a main tied to some Org. Besides who is gona waste valuable training and building time just recording random stuff.

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@Zeal: Yeah, exactly. That's why a BOO member won't make reports on BOO stuff, and TU members won't do TU stuff

 

@Shynrasq: fair enough if you don't invite someone. And as stated, we'll never going to be trespassers

 

@Novarkian: me for example. Because I'm interested in the history of a game and all the factors which drive a game forward like wars, social constructs and behavior of people

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@Zeal: Yeah, exactly. That's why a BOO member won't make reports on BOO stuff, and TU members won't do TU stuff

 

@Shynrasq: fair enough if you don't invite someone. And as stated, we'll never going to be trespassers

 

@Novarkian: me for example. Because I'm interested in the history of a game and all the factors which drive a game forward like wars, social constructs and behavior of people

 

> fair enough, but would a SLI member do ODY stuff for example? 

 

and if not, how are you actually going to enforce neutrality? you're going to start to check if reports are made by people having no ties whatsoever for pretty much everything, which is going to be painful very quickly. 

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> fair enough, but would a SLI member do ODY stuff for example?

 

and if not, how are you actually going to enforce neutrality? you're going to start to check if reports are made by people having no ties whatsoever for pretty much everything, which is going to be painful very quickly.

That's why we got voids little site for.

 

You can never be sure ofc, but you can use every possibility you have available. And besides: only certain, verified, long term supporters of DUHS will be officially announced as such holders of alts. Ever other guy you see with that tag is an imposter.

 

@Novarkian: well yes, you lose that time on your main. That's the price you have to pay. When you're dedicated to the cause (like me wanting to record such historical events) and you're accepted as such a holder of an alt, then you're willing to take that cost

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let's say ODY will be very famous and are the first ones to build a deathstar for example

 

Alright. Who gave you our plans?

 

In all seriousness though, this isn't unreasonable. It's analogous to the way journalists are handled irl. There is always a risk of journalists leaking info but if there's something you're doing that you want to be public or recorded in history, it can be advantageous to give them access. If an alt from DUHS reveals something they shouldn't, that will hurt their rep and they will lose future access. Organizations accepting a DUHS alt would have to be very careful with privileges granted through RDMS.

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@Shynrasq: fair enough if you don't invite someone. And as stated, we'll never going to be trespassers

 

 

Well, didn't realize Kurock is there, so I guess I'll let him :D

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No and No.

 

You don't record a whole battle's course, you piece it together from people's accountings of events. You think the battle of Waterloo happened the way the observer recorded it? No, people found accounts of people across the whole battle, piecing together the whole scene.

 

Also, any "alt" can be a person that wants to write FANTASY about an event - like how one faction won a battle with the odds beign 10:1 agaisnt them - and then the youtube video proof of the lies emerge and the communtiy goes sideways..

 

Here's how it goes. 

1) someone always records a battle in Teamspeak - always.

 

2) Compare the two sides recordings of the battle or their video evidence of the events.

 

3) Make an entry on a battle as of ACTUAL evidence, not observations with an alt flying in a neutral ship.

 

I will persanally execute any alt claiming they are here on a "peaceful mission".

 

After all, it was byzantine monks that smuggled Silk out of China and the best disguise shinobi wore, was that of a farmer or a trader.

 

Yes, invite a neutral in your home = you ask to be robbed.

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No and No.

 

You don't record a whole battle's course, you piece it together from people's accountings of events. You think the battle of Waterloo happened the way the observer recorded it? No, people found accounts of people across the whole battle, piecing together the whole scene.

 

Also, any "alt" can be a person that wants to write FANTASY about an event - like how one faction won a battle with the odds beign 10:1 agaisnt them - and then the youtube video proof of the lies emerge and the communtiy goes sideways..

 

Here's how it goes.

 

1) someone always records a battle in Teamspeak - always.

 

2) Compare the two sides recordings of the battle or their video evidence of the events.

 

3) Make an entry on a battle as of ACTUAL evidence, not observations with an alt flying in a neutral ship.

 

I will persanally execute any alt claiming they are here on a "peaceful mission".

 

After all, it was byzantine monks that smuggled Silk out of China and the best disguise shinobi wore, was that of a farmer or a trader.

 

Yes, invite a neutral in your home = you ask to be robbed.

Valid points there twerk, and you are right. You don't reconstruct a battle from one, neutral alts, POV. You take that viewpoint and compare it to others, do your research, get other POVs of that battle and compare and analyze them.

 

I understand your points, as I played eve long enough and they're all valid. You can execute those neutral alts, that will happen. And I don't suspect people to trust those alts, they have no reason for it. That's why DUHS has to work hard for a reputation and why we need (mostly) unbiased reporters. Best case: enemies work together on a report so it shows both sides. Worst case: it goes horribly wrong and people just don't trust anyone.

 

Whatever the case, we'll work towards our goal for an unbiased view on DU history, with every tool available to us

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