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What caught my eye, What is lacking, and What makes me wary.


Metalmammoth
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Lethak:

 

Well done good sir, counterpoints, reason and logic.

 

-Even if, true to your word, we don't agree.

 

 


It would be COOL, but absolutely pointless regarding gameplay mechanics, and add over-complexity for the devs to implement this purely cosmetic feature. 

 

COOL, not NEED.
 
 

 

-To that, I'd say, the very point of a building game is to make your cosmetics as good as possible, otherwise you might as well play any static spacey-flighty-fighty game that doesn't have any kind of construction-  not that those are bad, mid you, but without building fancy stuff it's just the same as any mmo; min-max your stats, crush opposition, done.

 

 

 



 

 
 And ... Blueprints happened.
 
Since you can make a design and store it for replication upon destruction of the first prototype (or else).
The PvPers will, too, make some efforts into building their ships; because nobody likes flying in a piece of junk and will now their effort is not truly lost after a fight (so as yours).
 

I suspected that much, and wasn't worried about that. I'm saying it's not quite the height of the day to see a masterpiece gutted by something that shares it's aesthetics with that of a brick.

Maybe you haven't seen "Doomcubes" first hand yet, but believe me their pilots do just that: No ornamentation, no nothing, just an actual, smooth-sided cube. They don't fret either about losing their "design", rather, are unwilling to spend more effort on it, and, at least some of them do it precisely because it's annoying, not just because it's the simplest way to win.

That kind of people? No thank you. All they need is the chance to do so, and they'll work tirelessly -and find ways to cheat- to get to those who don't want them around, be it a game with a hundred wilderness maps or a hundred galaxies. I watched that kind if d!ckery too long, both in games and in the walking world. While I am able to deal with it, I do prefer to keep it as far away from me as possible, not unlike molten metal or other dangerous substances. At least when I'm looking for recreation.

 

 

Smaller server means more rules required by the close proximity. More rules means less freedom and less emergent gameplay;
In short: a game able to die quicker, and a large amount of player deterred.
 
If I want a small community, I can find myself a nice server of .. SE, or Rust, or even WoW.
 
This is just not what DU is aiming for.
 
In DU, you will have freedom to make friends with other player wanting the same as you.
You will be able to team up and play together or just be neighbors  ! You can define your own "high standard" and go evangelize it into the verse (or not, again, you are free).
 

 

But wouldn't you rather choose a group whose rules you can agree with? I would.

 

Wouldn't you rather filter potential friends- and enemies by interest, mentality, etc? Not unlinke how you go to a specific type of forum, or meeting place rather than approaching random strangers on the main street.

 

 

 

And for Capn' Catmolester: you just keep assuming wild BS. I wonder how many people takes YOU seriously.

 

There's some key differences here: I don't need to be right, yet I am. I don't, per se, need this game to turn out according to my wishes, even though if I'd like to nudge it a bit in the right direction.

You however hiss and claw in true despair.

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I'm saying it's not quite the height of the day to see a masterpiece gutted by something that shares it's aesthetics with that of a brick.

Maybe you haven't seen "Doomcubes" first hand yet, but believe me their pilots do just that: No ornamentation, no nothing, just an actual, smooth-sided cube.

They don't fret either about losing their "design", rather, are unwilling to spend more effort on it, and, at least some of them do it precisely because it's annoying, not just because it's the simplest way to win.

That kind of people? No thank you. All they need is the chance to do so, and they'll work tirelessly -and find ways to cheat- to get to those who don't want them around, be it a game with a hundred wilderness maps or a hundred galaxies. I watched that kind if d!ckery too long, both in games and in the walking world. While I am able to deal with it, I do prefer to keep it as far away from me as possible, not unlike molten metal or other dangerous substances. At least when I'm looking for recreation.

I can agree with that, and have, in fact, been experimenting this shit in a similar fashion on other games before.

 

However, this thought me to better prepare myself to counter-it.

 

So, maybe before building my masterpiece, I would secure the area with a TCU (Territory Control Unit), to deny any easy and unwanted terrain modification around.

Maybe I would add a perimeter defense system all around, lets say Anchored Automated Turrets in sync with a radar unit and an IFF system. ( to be confirmed :) )

 

In short, I would have used the game the way it is meant to be used.

 

If this may not be enough to deter the hardcore lowlife of a scumbag and his cube; I know I could count on the community I am part of to be of some kind of assistance via added security. I would have built near them, ensuring longer human presence around to have more chance to be able to intervene in a defensive situation.

 

Maybe my community will be part of a larger player-faction with strict police laws, then maybe I will be confident my masterpiece will be reasonably safe there.

 

Adding to that, the devs may add (somehow) a "god mode" intended to civilian constructions (or another system intended to protect such masterpiece) [this worries me since this is such an opportunity for unbalance and abuse of game mechanics regarding PvP and territory war]

 

AND lets not forget, you might just be able to have a blueprint for your masterpiece, AND maybe, supply it with "auto-reparators" as I am sure to have read about them somewhere on the devblog.

 

 

 

Conclusion,

 

Mr Scumbag is a challenge and an opportunity for more "meta" game, and is making sure I don't die bored of the game too easily.

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Meaning, there are no good reasons other than "well, it's not red because it's blue".

 

The site's FAQ will have to do then.

I'd also like to remind you I was kind enough to provide a TLDR of my own ramblings.

 

Won't preach water while drinking wine, I am willing to read through anything of up to a similar length of what I unleashed if it doesn't completely suck, and isn't quite as jumbled as what you so smugly referred to.

 

Well, at any rate the ideas are out there and they either take root or don't. Seen enough forums to hold no illusions, but here's hoping.

 

Would have enjoyed some proper responses, counterpoints even, but as so often before, the first ones to strike were less than capable of that.

 

Maybe someone still bumps in before this topic devolves into a comlete sh!tstorm.

Before I begin, I just want to state I'm replying to contribute (Even though someone has probably said what I'm about to say already, my bad if this is the case)

 

Dual Universe is a game about a single universe where the entire play base can play together, at the same time, in the same place. Without interruptions (Such as loading screens, zones, etc) Players will have the ability to build and destroy on a galactic scale, create factions and build entire civilizations. This system is supposed to be realistic, which means the players are in charge of pretty much everything that goes on inside the game. Take this with a pinch of salt, however, as there will be things we cannot do.

 

My point is, this game requires a single server to achieve what it hopes to achieve. Private servers are basically pointless in an emergent gameplay environment. As such, a single server for millions of players is no easy task. I'd wager half the reasoning behind their monthly subscription is going to pay for the server costs and more. A server like this requires maintenance, and it doesn't come free.

 

There are plenty more points I could point out for why a monthly fee is the better option for this game, however, you can find them through the link suggested earlier.

 

(Here it is again: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/1122-dual-universe-faqsources/ )

Private servers defeat this game's entire purpose. Simple as that. Please list me one sandbox game that has managed to host a single server with no loading screens, zones, instances, etc for millions of players on the same scale as DU (Emphasis needed)

 

If this game succeeds, it will, quite literally, be revolutionary for the gaming industry. 

 

I do agree with you on the potential grief that will occur in DU. There is no sandbox game without them, unfortunately. However, that is what server administrators are for. That, and anti-grief. There are already planned systems to prevent this, the devs aren't stupid.

 

 

All of that aside, welcome to the forums. You can PM me if you have any more questions. Or you can just visit the link I shared above.

 

 

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Huh, something happened while I was working.

 

Sorry mammoth, everyone is just on edge right now because we've been having a fight over most of these topics for over a month.

 

I accept your desire that you think urging the game into a direction that you want is the right path, but its just one path of many.

 

the technology behind Dual Universe has been in the works from JC Baillie and his supporters for a long time. They aren't going to switch their minds from a Massive game to single shards or split instances.

Most people here as you have seen are fanatical for a true MMO game finally. I'm very excited myself for it.

 

This concern that bad things will happen to people and that's why you want to protect yourself from the world. There are some mechanics in place for that.

 

1.) Finding other players or organisations for safety. There are at least 4 umbrella organisations, a few of them offer mutual protection.

2.) Arkified areas will be player created high security zones, the full workings of how safe and how permanent are a little gray. but they'll exist.

 

Welcome to dual universe, it was an interesting first day for you. As suggested please look around, the Player made FAQ has good quick answers to many questions.

See you around

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i can really only speak for myself, but i for one would lose a lot of interest in this game if it got turned into just another SE or minecraft by making it private servers only.

 

i can understand your feelings on the matter, especially since you mentioned you have a child that you game with. but the fact of the matter is there are already a lot of options available for you to setup a private server and control who enters your gaming environment. but a sever lack of even mediocre options for voxel mmo's for those of us who are looking for a more massive option.

 

then we have to consider the fact that the devs have spent their time up until now on creating the foundation for a single shard mmo experience. seems like it would be a waste just to do the same thing every other builder game has done.

 

and i will abstain from commenting on your payment arguments as we already have 2 or 3 mega threads on the topic that has said about all that can be said on the topic.

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Hi Metalmamoth and welcome in the Dual Universe community.
So to address your concerns (or at least give you an explanation, even if it's not the one you would have expected), here are some answers:
 

 

Prefabricated blocks (a.k.a. cockpits, thrusters, weapons) NEEDS to change. So far the current system merely seems to copy what Space Engineers does, yet the method is faulty to begin with. What NEEDS to happen, is the ability to build custom prefabs in-game, just like building the ship itself, then assigning functions to them through some menu, marking attachment and animation points, etc, so everyone can have the perfect part that perfectly fits the vessel he likes, and not just one general, bland sci-fi design! That one is important. If nothing else happens until release, it needs to be made a reality, unless you're fine simply aping Space Engineers.

 

Please make the difference between what would seem nice in your opinion and what is really needed.
No, it's not essential to make customizable prefab blocks in our game: what you're asking requires a considerable amount of development time. It's like asking to develop ingame a tool like 3D Studio Max, Maya or Blender, each of these software having a full dev team behind it. Keep in mind that we are an independant studio and while we have a bigger team than the average indie, we can't be compared to big studios like Bioware or Blizzard. We have to choose our battles, to make tough choices about what we will develop and what we won't. This + the fact that our dev team wants to keep a minimal control about the artistic direction are the main reasons why we won't have prefab customizable blocks. 
 

 

MMOs lock everyone together. Smaller private servers allow for replicas of Different universes, different ways of playing, or gatherings of people with different mindsets. Lock all that together, and you unleash all the horror of every "which faction would win in a cross-franchise battle" forum flamewar ever written in the history of the internet, with all the grief attached to it. And, there'll be no way to avoid the kind of players you'd rather not mingle with; Did you spend 300 hours lovingly building a masterpiece? Tough luck when the powergamers fly in with their literally 8-polygon cubeships and manage to trash it because they didn't waste space on something as trivial as accurately replicated interiors.

 

 

What I'm saying is: Smaller, dedicated servers are better, with closer communities, which in turn are closer to the people running the show, thus are better served, and better able to find a virtual home they can enjoy themselves the way they want. That was the reason against a centralized server.

 

 

Does it absolutely HAVE to be "Massively" multiplayer? I listed my reasons why I think there's virtue in smaller communities.

A single large one, true enough, will offer more chances to meet more people, see more creations, and always run into someone...

 

Does it have to be Massively Multiplayer?
 
Short answer:
 
Yes.
 
Long answer:
 
If you like playing on small private servers to play with small communities carefully selected, that's perfectly fine and you have already many games aiming to achieve this goal: Space Engineers, Starmade, etc. On the other hand, there are NO massively multiplayer Builder games as we intend to do. That's one of the big reason why there has been a lot of investment developping the tech necessary to make it happen. We are perfectly aware that it won't be everybody's cup of tea, but we aren't trying to satisfy every player either.
 
There is no game offering such experience at the moment and we're intending to provide such service. If massively multiplayer games don't appeal to you, then maybe it's not a game for you. From what you are saying, other building games have performance issues with huge voxel constructions, and we can understand that's a problem. However, if you prefer their way of doing things (private servers, small communities), it would be more relevant to ask them directly to address the problem in their game than attempting to modify the vision of a game (like Dual Universe) that has entirely other goals.
 
If you see our game like a "Space Engineers" clone, then you have missed most of our goals with the project: building spaceships and cities is just the corner stone of a bigger edifice. We want to combine Building gameplay with a player-driven economy, constested territories and politics. These last three gameplay aspects won't thrive unless we reach a critical mass regarding the number of players. That's the big reason to go for a massively multiplayer online structure. 
 

 

Does your six year old son enjoy flying the very first, and superest spaceship he ever built? It's like 20 blocks long, and looks like a clay dinosaur someone stepped on, but oh the innocent fun he's having! However, that smile will quickly turn into disappointment when cannon shells a thousand times larger than his ship start raining in from fifty-thousand meters, or just, more prosaically, encounters his first really sick griefer, (Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe we grow through pain, and no child should be pampered, but neither should we expect the little ones to face all the evils such an online community can throw at them all at once.)

 

 
Dual Universe is not a game meant for children. So unfortunately, this scenario is not relevant.
There's currently a high chance that our game will be rated PEGI 18 when it will be officially released.
Not because of offensive content included originally in the game (there won't be any), but because of the very nature of sandbox games (especially when it comes to massively multiplayer games): giving player freedom is something that is expected in a Massively Multiplayer Sandbox game, but it comes with some duties. This is not something you can ask from someone who isn't legally responsible because of his age. You can see Dual Universe as a Minecraft-like game made for mature, adult players. We want to build a community with players responsible for their actions and ready to handle the consequences of their actions ingame: do not trust blindly someone you've just met one minute ago, do not transport valuable goods in an unprotected spaceship, etc.
 

 

Some people say it takes money to run the servers. It does, but take the initial price of the game, say 60 Eur for an AAA title. Most companies go rich simply by selling a succesful game. Some companies even turn some of that money back into the game, and keep releasing patches and content for their game out of love, duty, and for making you interested in buying an expansion or a sequel.

 

You would be perfectly right if we wanted to develop a "theme park" MMO like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, Star Wars the Old Republic, etc. In this kind of games, the developers mission is to bring huge amount of content regularly. To sell expansions in this scenario would be totally relevant. But in a Sandbox context, where players make their own content? Sure the dev team plans to add regularly additional gameplay mechanics, to offer aways more gameplay possibilities to the players, but would it be enough to convince the most part of players to buy an expansion ? nothing is less sure than that. And that's probably why CCP preferred to keep a subscription model instead of selling expansions (despite the fact they did make expansions, they didn't sell them and kept the monthly subscription formula). This would be a very very risky bet.
 

 

I'm perfectly fine paying for the product ONCE, as they deserve it. I'm also willing to pay for an expansion, as that has a fair amount of work put into it, and as such, has worth. What doesn't have worth, is not pulling the plug from the server, and waiting for your paycheck. Sell just a million copies. That's ( 1KK x 60 ) + ( 1KK x 15 ) if everyone only ever just pays for a single month and quits. That's 75 million euros. That alone is enough to pay a decent salary for all your employees, cover your expenses, buy and maintain your own server park and keep a decent profit for the rest of all the lives of everyone involved. For the next 20 years, which is an extremely long time both for a game to still be played and for a studio that doesn't disband not to secure another round of income, these costs become less than trivial. There can be only two reasons for this amount not being enough: Attempting to run a space program, or being greedy.

 

With all due respect, there might be a third possibility: Without having all the cards in hand to judge objectively, you're making a (probably involuntary) biased assessment, and the way you calculate the costs are incredibly far from the reality (with the costs being in fact much higher than what you are thinking). Unless you have already managed and directed the budget for a Massively Multiplayer Online game, you're not qualified to make such bold statement as above. Continuing to affirm such things would be just arrogance.
 
It has become increasingly common in the recent years to see many players jump to the conclusion that devs are immediately greedy and/or evil masterminds as soon as the price of a game isn't the price they deem reasonable without having made rigorous market studies on the topic and/or being fully aware of how much cost a game, and especially a MMORPG (costs skyrocket when you're aiming for Massively Multiplayer Online Game, available 24h/24 7d/7  with all the logistics behind. Moreover, the costs for an offline single player - or a player hosted server - game is nothing comparable to the costs of a MMO game.
 
Another point that makes your reasonnement starting on a wrong basis: currently, Dual Universe isn't planned to require a payment equal to a full game price from day one. So to reach the price of a Buy to play Model, you will have to play and pay at least 4 months (+ the free trial period) if we refer to standard monthly fees, before reaching the same cost. After all this time in game, if you don't want to pay anymore, you will still have the alternative to buy monthly subscription tokens from other players with your ingame money (or even before: if a player is active enough, it might be possible to buy the first monthly subscription token right after the free trial period expires). This is exactly how the PLEX system from EvE Online works. So in all honesty, we have a hard time to see how this formula can be seen as greedy or evil. It's a balance between giving people with low budget but with lots of free time to join the game and the investment in the game (be it in time played or money) as a deterrent to adopt a bad behavior.
 

 

Some of you believe, and even the dev blog claims, a P2P system with a monthly subscription fee protects the player more because..... reasons? In a truly F2P game, yeah, any moron can grief away with dozens of new accounts every day, true. But how does a monthly fee offer more deterrence from bannable behaviour than a buy once model? I already don't want to lose access to what I bought once, can I somehow don't want it more? I understand I would have spent more money on it, but in exchange for that money I received playtime, which I used up, and is impossible to take away without a brainwash, even if the account itself is lost forever. After a while you'll max out either way, and it can't take that long to start anew from scratch once you know how the game works. So I either care or I don't. There are no further magnitudes. 

 

If you have read our devblog post here, we do tell that the B2P model (Buy once, Play forever) is a strong deterrent to player negative behavior, nearly as much as the Pay to Play model. Our main concerns with the "Buy to Play" model are elsewhere: 
- This is an immediate paywall that would discourage many players with low budget.
- This makes our alternative to play for free impossible. For more info, read the first part of the DevBlog ("Being able to play the game without spending money"), and especially the "Pay to Play" part explaining the benefits of the PLEX system used by EvE Online (and copied by other MMOs like Wildstar and World of Warcraft).
- This is not a solid and sustainable model unless we invest a huge amount of our budget in developping a cash shop. Because MMORPGs with a Buy to Play model always have a huge (some players would say oversized) cash shop. The server and the team behind a MMORPG aren't just financed by the sales of the game. On the long term, the main revenue to finance all this is generated by the cash shop. As we are aware that relying too much and/or becoming dependant from a cash shop revenue can generate many problems, that one more reason to be careful about this model. 
 
That being said, an official thread will be made soon to answer and adress all the concerns about the Pay to Play monetization model.
There are already too many threads about this topic, and it's about time that all the related discussions are gathered in the same place.
 
Best regards,
Nyzaltar.
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  • 1 month later...

Meaning, there are no good reasons other than "well, it's not red because it's blue".

 

The site's FAQ will have to do then.

I'd also like to remind you I was kind enough to provide a TLDR of my own ramblings.

 

Won't preach water while drinking wine, I am willing to read through anything of up to a similar length of what I unleashed if it doesn't completely suck, and isn't quite as jumbled as what you so smugly referred to.

 

Well, at any rate the ideas are out there and they either take root or don't. Seen enough forums to hold no illusions, but here's hoping.

 

Would have enjoyed some proper responses, counterpoints even, but as so often before, the first ones to strike were less than capable of that.

 

Maybe someone still bumps in before this topic devolves into a comlete sh!tstorm.

Read my posts I've dealt with many of those points. 

The kid in the dino speeder is probably the only one that needs more work.

  1. The kid is probably below the age threshold in the EULA but no one reads those any way and there will be a lot of kids.
  2. He can make a ship in VR and zoom around like a maddy in VR with no fear of a crash or ambush destroying it. 
  3. You can't lose the blue print on ship destruction. So the amount of effort put into detailed design is retained. Put a Resurrection unit near your warehouse full of resources and rebuild it. 
  4. A detailed ship with lots of rooms etc will be lighter and more manoeuvrable than the low poly lump with a rocket attached. 
  5. A detailed ship with lots of rooms etc will attract crew players to man the combat and repair system. You have the advantage. 
  6. It's very hard to destroy anything: vehicles, building, the ships and stations are not one shot kill. Damage knocks out systems and leaves drifting hulk to be fought over man on man, corridor by corridor. To take a ship or building you must hack the core unit and that may take a whole day. 
  7. There will be a lot of players who will go after the greifers in their low poly rockets if a crying kid shows up in chat. 

 

Also on player made elements, there are a few in the works showing up in various image archives that you will like. Wrap a few voxels around them and you have any style you want but many want DU to have a style and a lore of its own. It can be done but its a lot of data to send player to hordes of players. And other people own the patents.

If you want a super smooth voxel warhammers ship it will come.

If the combination of JC's server architecture and Dual Contouring voxels works then every major game company will buy it to make their gameworld.

mmm playable tyranid ships or Ork hulks. No better D & D spell jammers!

 

Lastly on payments; the main problem is not the payment system but what happens to your stuff if you go off line for months or years. It's the problem of abandoned players accounts. NQ has an innovation. Effectively you licence it all to someone: a friend, a guild or org. A will. They inherit it all. That delays the problem a little. They may have scrapped it all but they owe you one and they may have your blue prints somewhere.

Elsewhere I've discussed off line or client side archiving. It's a possibility. I'm not however a dev. 

Supposedly you can't loose your Second Life character and all his stuff yet I have twice. It's nothing to do with billing. 

 

 

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The problem is, unlike an image, a 3D mesh takes a lot of memory. Memory which will be have to be stored in the servers, so to deter backdoors for malware into the server. Having an image editor in-game, could happen, giving each player up to, let's say, 500 MB of storage to create their own flags or whatever. A cockpit on its own would a tenth of that and a lot of loading on other players to load said texture. Which is why the prefab cockpits on the devs part are a good thing. You would already have the cockpit on your client, you won't have to download it in real time..

 

 

And setting up a WoW server with functional A.I. is difficult. Can you imagine some guy trying to set up a DUAL server on a traditional server blade? The thing would crack into splinters. The devs had to pretty much invent a new tech to host the game.

 

untrue and or wrong

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1) Would you build an Atom Bomb and then use it to kill a spider or two? No. No you wouldn't. Plus, YOU NEED CLOUD COMPUTING FOR THE GAME TO RUN PROPERLY. If you read the FAQ Cybrex shared, you would know that, but hey, reading ain't the easiest thing for some I guess. 

 

 

Nuking a spider seems like a perfectly reasonably idea, hell nuke the spider and all it's friends and foes a like.

CLOUD COMPUTING, a grand marketing word, but do you understand what is really behind it technically and how it's used?

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Only to reply the monthly fee. I was there btw. OK I think I don't agree that everyone has to pay it but, for the scripts for example and blueprints to sell, it would be necessary as it would be needed to provide good cloud service. So I wouldn't disagree with two systems (one once paid, another with month fee), btw if you play enough you can buy the month fee ;) with the game cash directly as a good player.

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Those talking about servers not possibly handling that, you never heard about how these are sensed to work. It's cluster technology. And those posting pics of EVE Online with "private server, still goes after 7 years" you don't get it and EVE is not at all the same kind of game, we talk about total civilisation creation here, don't spoil the board. Okay you could reconcile Eve with DU but not about the server system as DU is sandbox and Eve is an MMO into space, all created.

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I've asked for the possibility to create our own prefabs and it will be possible. Not in the alpha, maybe not in the Beta, but after this you will be able to create your own cockpit and else. It's in a galaxy far far away though, 2018 we are waiting.

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