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Tiberio Octavio

Planets running out of resources?

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Watching some of the game aspects today, I have asked myself: Is there any way to regenerate resources?

 

Imagine if everyone starts at the same place (the Arkship). A few weeks or even days later, every single resource in the surroundings and maybe in the whole planet (such as different types of metal), would be completely gone, and there would not be any way for new players to start collecting resources by their own means. With the time, the planets, moons, and everything around, would empty. Maybe a solution for this is to make ridiculous quantities of resources so they do not run out in dozens of years, but still it would not be very aesthetic starting in a place where every single spot is full of holes. I can not stop to imagine those horrid minecraft servers in which some zones ground looked like complete destruction, since every single change in the terrain was saved and never reseted.

 

I know I am missing some point in here, and maybe there is already a planned solution for this. In that case, I would love to know it, as well as any suggestion or comment on this. Thank you in advance, and regards.

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Resources don't regenerate.

 

Let's define:

-LLR (low level resources): common in large quantities

-HLR (High level resources): rare in small quantities

-P1 starting planet, Px other planets

 

1)HLR on P1 run out before LLR (consequence of game balance)

2)Players move to Px for more HLR, and they'll mine LLR there too (for convenience)

3)This means less people mining on P1 for LLR, so they'll take more time to run out

4)The more time passes, the more the mining rate of LLR on P1 will go down (same for other planets)

 

Now let's add a new variable: rarity R. With time, LLR on P1 are running out, so their R (rarity) will go from "common" to "rare". This means that it's not going to be convenient for a miner to look for rare LLR on P1 and no HLR, instead they'll go on a fresh planet where they can mine common LLR and rare HLR. 

 

In conclusion:

-Since all this scales with time, a planet will never run out of LLR unless a group of players tries to make that happen on purpose ( it would take a lot of time, considering planet surface and planet depth, and wouldn't even be profitable)

-A planet can run out of HLR to a certain degree (maybe there's still a few pieces of materials somewhere hidden underground, but extremely rare)

-New players will be able to mine LLR for a certain period of time from release, after that technology will be so advanced that they'll easily buy a basic ship from the market to fly on a different planet (or a different solution that devs will provide with expansions and patches after release). 

-Chances are that after a certain period of time, the landscape will be partially destroyed like minecraft (or the real world). It may be uglier, but the game is player driven, so if you don't like it, just create an organization with the purpose of filling the holes (or conquer your private land). 

 

Edit. I've seen on minecraft clans of players or servers with strict rules about digging holes without filling them, partially cutting trees, building 1x1 voxels towers, .... so an organization can easily do the same thing, and keep its territories pristine at least in appearence (the bigger the org the bigger the territory)

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Watching some of the game aspects today, I have asked myself: Is there any way to regenerate resources?
 
Imagine if everyone starts at the same place (the Arkship). A few weeks or even days later, every single resource in the surroundings and maybe in the whole planet (such as different types of metal), would be completely gone, and there would not be any way for new players to start collecting resources by their own means. With the time, the planets, moons, and everything around, would empty. Maybe a solution for this is to make ridiculous quantities of resources so they do not run out in dozens of years, but still it would not be very aesthetic starting in a place where every single spot is full of holes. I can not stop to imagine those horrid minecraft servers in which some zones ground looked like complete destruction, since every single change in the terrain was saved and never reseted.
 
I know I am missing some point in here, and maybe there is already a planned solution for this. In that case, I would love to know it, as well as any suggestion or comment on this. Thank you in advance, and regards.

 

 

To add a bit to the very good answer of shynras:

 

The most basic ship which is capable of getting to another body in the solar system will most likely be made of the most basic and abundant materials so that there's no chance of a newbro who starts in 10 years to be stranded on alioth.

Many orgs and people will move ASAP from alioth to start their own bases and colonies somewhere (even in other solar systems) far to build up in peace.

 

Well some places might look like those minecraft servers (because people don't care, want to annoy others or for whatever reason) but this is a MMO. If you don't like that in your neighbourhood - get like minded people together to repair those "ugly" spots. Such things should be up to players, not some magical admin hand

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The safe zone alone is 20km.....thats huge. Not doing the math for you or me. With 1km that extends into the sky, and however deep they make the planet, you have A LOT of dirt to sift through even in the safe area.

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If the terrestrial ecology is made valuable enough, then major mining operations will be exported by governing orgs to more desolate, mineral-rich planets and moons. 

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Like the others have said, two main protections against the starting planet becoming desolate are the sheer size of the planet and the quantity of resources on it and people's nature to head to other worlds rather than stay and strip mine everything. 

 

That being said, those only delay the depletion of the resources on the starting planet. And the planet does not have to be completely depleted for it to be a huge inconvenience to new players. There may be deposits of ore 2km underground on the other planet, but no brand new player should be expected to be reliant on that. Join the game, walk for two hours, dig for four more hours, congratulations you have iron ... that is a sure way to deter new players. Part of the solution to this can (and should) be player driven: manpower is extremely valuable so it is very likely that orgs will lavish new players with free goods and provide free transport to their areas. 

 

Additionally, the devs could add game-level features to deal with this in the long term. One solution they mentioned is to allow players to start at other arkships as they are discovered. Or they could introduce a basic tutorial that would eventually provide new players with a very basic ship so they could go somewhere that has resources. 

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shifting early game activities.

 

At the start mining will probably be a high priority...

 

But after the game has been out for a while ... and a lot has been mined and the easy close in deposits have been harvested... Mining probably won't be as important for a new player to engage in right away.

 

So what will the early game be for a new player be later on? 

 

I'm not sure.

 

I imagine there will be guilds actively recruiting...  And the starting area will be built up with market interfaces, storehouses and space ports... player housing and org headquarters. 

 

If player made quests are a thing then a new player could take on some of those to make some cash. 

 

Depending on how much cash a player starts with and how the player economy pans out... they may be able get out fitted with a beginner ship by purchasing it on the markets or not.  Heck new players could have some sort of voucher that enables them to purchase something that contains a certain amount of resources.  So the seller gets market value... and the new player can always afford a basic ship...

 

I'm hopeful there will be sufficient mechanics in place for player made quests... missions... politics... factions... for players to effectively take over the rolls that the NPCs and story would in a non sand box game. 

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I like the fact people keep assuming this is Space Engineers clone #216442. 

I can't wait till you guys start yelling "BUT NQ , I CANTZ MINE AS FAST AS 1000 PEPLZ CAN, NQ NEED BUFFZ MINING SPEEDZ, GIB AUTOMINERZ PLOX."

 

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Let's do some mathematics.

 

 In Minecraft, the ore density for Iron is about 0.6% of all blocks below 50 blocks above bedrock. Assuming an average ore density for all ores of that, and that the editable voxels are 10 km deep. The total volume is 4190000 km^3-3050000 km^3 = 1140000 km^3 of editable voxels. 0.6% of that is 6840 km^3 of ore, which means each player gets about 0.14 km^3 of ore, or about 5 by 5 by 5. If we increase the ore density to that of Minecraft Coal, about 1%, we get 11400 km^3 of ore, or about 0.23 km^3, 6.1 by 6.1 by 6.1 voxels of ore. 

 

Obviously, ore is going to run out fairly quick assuming people actually play this game.

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Obviously, ore is going to run out fairly quick assuming people actually play this game.

Assuming everyone will mine for days on the same planet. This flat up wont happen, since there are people who will just wait and kill miners, and those who will be paid to protect said miners. Also keep in mind that wood, dirt and stone are probably going to be building materials, or at least sell-able to the bots at spawn for cash. Since your estimates don't account for nearly as many variables as it should, don't take them as gospel.

 

Something more accurate is to assume only half of the players (which still might be an overestimate) will be (effective) miners to begin with, so doubling your numbers gives us about 0.28-0.46km^3 of ore per person, which you didn't convert properly or didn't use metric units and went for voxels (because that makes sense?). Either way, thats a cube with dimensions between 654m and 772m. Now, we could change the ore density to something a bit higher, but we don't have any figures to go on, so we'll keep your numbers for now. But as you can see, this ore will last a while, because the number of miners on Alioth will reduce over time (increasing the amount of ore per miner) and not many people would be willing to mine out a 654x654x654m cube of ore, let alone that amount spread out across the planet.

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Assuming everyone will mine for days on the same planet. This flat up wont happen, since there are people who will just wait and kill miners, and those who will be paid to protect said miners. Also keep in mind that wood, dirt and stone are probably going to be building materials, or at least sell-able to the bots at spawn for cash. Since your estimates don't account for nearly as many variables as it should, don't take them as gospel.

 

Yeah, many players, like myself, aren't too excited to be mining all day. I'll be entering the game with some extra DACs so, provided I can sell some early on, I'll have plenty of quanta to buy what I need from both players and bots.

 

I also expect the density of standard ores will be higher than 1%.  :P

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People need to get it into their heads, that not many will actually invest skllls into mining skill training.

Past the safezone people will start specialising and so will mining slow down, cause stronger minerals take more time to mine. NQ has explained their view on this, mining won't be the same for every mineral, and unless you got training for it, you won't mine as fast OR as efficiently as a trained miner.


This is not Space Empyrioneer, mining is a role, not a hassle.

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Yeah, many players, like myself, aren't too excited to be mining all day. I'll be entering the game with some extra DACs so, provided I can sell some early on, I'll have plenty of quanta to buy what I need from both players and bots.

 

I also expect the density of standard ores will be higher than 1%.  :P

I would not recommend 'selling' DACs early on, since the price will be WILD. If you find them at a really low price, buy them (their value only increases with time/player count)

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I would not recommend 'selling' DACs early on, since the price will be WILD. If you find them at a really low price, buy them (their value only increases with time/player count)

Why you heff to tell them that. I would've made millions

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Why you heff to tell them that. I would've made millions

Just think about all the people who doesn't read the forums though

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Yeah I hope lots of people sell their dac early on (<2years). It'll be hilarious

I can't wait for the scams, like :

 

" Selling DAC, haalf the market price, only serious offers."

 

And contracts with names like [WTS DAC 50% MARKET PRICE] only for people to not realise it actualy BUYS a DAC for half the market price.

 

I mean, if people fall for these in EVE, I guess it's only expected to be working like a charm in DU.

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Why you heff to tell them that. I would've made millions

Because then I will make millions selling mine at what they assume to be reduced price

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I mean, how will people make enough cash to get off the planet and do stuff?

 

Some that I can think of.

-Services

-Resource Extraction

-Manufacturing(structures)

-Trading DACs

 

I am assuming people will start off with some cash and skill training points or whatever they are called.

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This is also not EVE clone and the very fact it's a voxel based game, it has its consequences.

 

Even if your predictions are right, and actual volume per ca-pita is low, early birds will profit. They will establish economy first. And later on if mining basic resources will become less and less profitable for new players I'm pretty sure organisations will develop their own hierarchy and structures. They will provide you with resources and delegate you to territory they know is more profitable.

 

On the early stage of the game it will be a race for sure. But when you take territory ownership into account, you wan't be free to mine wherever you want. Starting planet will shrink even more for new comers. You would thing this gameplay will penalise newbies. But another self balance mechanism will play a role here. Even if you are lone wolf, sooner or later some pilot will offer his services, a journey to fresh planet using a star-gates developed by his org. Unless you take an offer to join an org and be relocated for free. 

 

Thinking on loud here, but accusing people here for comparing this game to a SE or Empyrion is an insult to the game itself. However non regenerative voxel world has it's consequences that cannot be ignored. Game will evolve and economy will adjust. Conditions will not be constant. But it doesn't mean it's a flaw that put a game into stand still. It will change and I kind of like this dynamic.

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I mean, how will people make enough cash to get off the planet and do stuff?

 

Some that I can think of.

-Services

-Resource Extraction

-Manufacturing(structures)

-Trading DACs

 

I am assuming people will start off with some cash and skill training points or whatever they are called.

Mainly they will mine and protect the miners and sell it to the bots. Later on, when enough money is made, you can start to have different roles with a paycheck. Many people will race and try to get off planet first - so I think mining will be prevalent in the eearly days

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I mean, how will people make enough cash to get off the planet and do stuff?

 

Some that I can think of.

-Services

-Resource Extraction

-Manufacturing(structures)

-Trading DACs

 

I am assuming people will start off with some cash and skill training points or whatever they are called.

Word of advice : Dont' ever design a game.

 

If people were to start with cash, there would be 1000000000 accoutns day 1 and infaltion of Weimar Republic proportions post WW2.

 

How about doing the same thing peoiple do to get to a null-sec empire in EVE. 

 

Enlist in the armies of a corporation that's part of an alliance that's part of a player-ran empire.

 

You don't even have to enlsih in an empire, most people will probably look for a new recruit, so players can teach palyers how top lay the gmae and be part of the team - like in EVE :V .

 

In fact, THAT'S the point for two months post launch, to make the game player-only operated.

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Word of advice : Dont' ever design a game.

 

If people were to start with cash, there would be 1000000000 accoutns day 1 and infaltion of Weimar Republic proportions post WW2.

I believe you are over-stating things. Whilst this design decision can be exploited, it is not by any means all bad. First off, there needs to be a unique email address for each account. Second, NQ could restrict the amount of accounts registered from one household each [insert period of time]. Third, the amount of money given at the start should be enough to get you a cheap ride to somewhere nearby, but not enough to get you off planet (you would have to sell something or do a contract in order to do so). It should also be enough that you can start playing with the market (albeit in the low margin section) from the get-go.

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I believe you are over-stating things. Whilst this design decision can be exploited, it is not by any means all bad. First off, there needs to be a unique email address for each account. Second, NQ could restrict the amount of accounts registered from one household each [insert period of time]. Third, the amount of money given at the start should be enough to get you a cheap ride to somewhere nearby, but not enough to get you off planet (you would have to sell something or do a contract in order to do so). It should also be enough that you can start playing with the market (albeit in the low margin section) from the get-go.

 

1)Bot software can generate as many emails they need automatically

2)Bot software can simulate or change IPs or PC. 

3)The amount given at the start would be = TOTAL.INGAME.MONEY/TOTAL.PLAYERS.NUMBER if no other money supplying system is in place (and if there's one, you wouldn't need to give new characters free money). So you'd actually own 1/TOTAL.PLAYERS.NUMBER of the economy.

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