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ThatAlex

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Hello everybody! i would like to talk about something that raised my interest earlier today. 

 

Some of the members in my organization were talking in the chat about buildings, in particular large building projects, citys, stations etc... one of the other members was questioning the probability of these actually being built in the game and this brought the question into my mind. What will people do for money in here? let me rephrase that, What are people willing to do to get money in game? will you be able to organize hundreds of people with the promise of payment to build huge structures? 

How many hours will people be willing to put into a project like that and how long until somebody trys it in game?

Will we be building planet wide citys within the first year/s of the release? 

I want to hear other peoples opinions on this! and please, critique this post as its one of many i plan to make in the future. 

 

-Alex  :D

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Welcome to the forums! It's hard to say at this point what will happen of course. A whole bunch of people getting thrown together in a procedural universe, who knows. How players will make money will depend on what they want to do within the game. Yes, in order for a huge project to be accomplished lots of people will have to work together to achieve it, and someone, or a group of people, will have to be pretty rich to build it, whether they pay workers or not.

 

NovaQuark has said that there will be gameplay reasons for grouping together and building cities, so we can expect that people will most likely do that. And quite honestly, look at what some of the insane things people have done in games like Minecraft... People will have much more incentive to build expansive cities, if not solely to look cool, because whatever they build has the potential to stay there and be seen by countless players.

 

When the game comes out everyone will be equal, but as it progresses some people or organizations will get rich by some means. At that point, with new players coming in, I think it's very viable that those who are rich will pay new players to work for them. But the internet is the internet, and whether that will or happen, or how long it will take for large structures to become common, is all speculation. However, in my opinion, which is the point of this topic, I don't believe that organizations paying anyone outside of their organization to build things will be very common. How do you know they won't sabotage something, or how do you get them to work hard, or be organized? I personally don't think it'll be common at all. But I think large organizations working with other large organizations will be more common.

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All in all, again, I agree with ATMLVE.

 

In the end, you can not know at this time. Although I have a guess where it could lead, but that is subjective.

 

I have to write a little more. Unfortunately, I can not take EvE as an example, which is why I try to explain it differently. (Perhaps someone can describe the EvE view, how it goes there?)

 

This phenomenon can be seen well in the past. The beginnings of the mmorpg was at a time when there were not many internet connections. 2001/2002, Dark Age of Camelot has had around 300'000 active players. They knew each other on the servers and knew who they were talking to. You were like a small family on the server.

Then the big bang. WoW scored over 1 million players. Even more players had internet, the mmorpg grew out of the niche - a complete success.

 

But to come back to your question again - you will meet many different players with different views and habits. We are going through this pre-release phase, which we now have, the DAoC time, where it is a "niche product". The players know each other and discuss in the forum. I suspect that it is more likely that the organizations that now exist in the future also work closely together (or not, just because you know each other)

 

Large projects will have a lack of resources. With a "mass handling", for example job hubs or the market, you do not even have to talk with individual players. Would that be the right way? I do not know. After all, they would not be part of the family or organization, they would be "just" simple players.

 

We are on the Internet. When I look back, I have the impression that the Internet 15 years ago was different than today.

When the big bang comes, the final release, ... Then you have all the players. Serious players, toxic players, trolls, YouTuber with their fans, just everything. Is this something bad? Not at all. You will choose your partners, allies, etc. in a targeted manner. In order to get resources, you will need the mass.

 

I consciously leave the scenario open after the release. (Months, years)

 

I'm not sure if I've answered your question. At the very least, I'm thinking about it when I read your text.

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I am willing to to hunt people for a living. But I would not mind being a security guard either. Or, if the gameplay is compelling, a support role player, i.e. engineer, medic. Support players in games like this are sought after en masse - because most people don't bother actually letting go of the power fantasy and being a team player.

As for building cities, you need to understand the concept of modular building. Once you have 10 differetn prsets, i.e. floors, apartments, stairs, and walls, you can set up a building 100 different ways. Building modularly, would allow a group for 5 people, to build a city in no time... if they got the resources. So "builder" at least en masse, won't be something lucrative, as organisations will have trust-worthy people handling larger quantities of materials like that.

So mining is an option, but resource wars are the leading cause of death in human history, so your small group of miners, will need a certain level of protection. Then, you'll need trasportation for the minerals back and forth and an armed escort - because raiders.

So, so far, you got :

1) Construction : that is a close group of people, that are working WITH the organisation.

2) Mining Operations : a small group that mines with a schedule and method, thus, they are efficient compared to Random Exhuming LLC .

3) Security : Stand around, get paid, the risk may not worth it if you have to bring your own gear for the job and the raiders decide it's a good day to test rocket launchers on live targets.

4) Transportation : You are a loot pinyata, but you are paid well because you are taking this kind of stressful job with a lot of responsibility.


I personally, like small talk, so I would definitely go for the Security kind of thing, possibly doing ranging / scouting if the surrounding is something that could provide a lot of cover for sharpshooters. In a quarry in a cave, I would have no problem just talking with the other guards, getting padid to pretty much do nothing ( hopefully, as I said, raiders can decide it's a good day to Nuke Hard ) .

But mining will pay more. And transportation is a form of business where if you die a lot, you'll just not be able to get a job, because you'll not be able to afford the collateral for the contract itself, let alone your reputation ruined.

So yeah, risk and reward. Security is dependent of the org you work for. If the org you work for has a good diplomacy with everyone and is neutral to everyone - except them pesky raiders - then you'll be paid far less than an org that needs security because their leaders are the equivalent of a squeaker that collided with puberty head on.

So, you see, it all comes down to a lot of things. The easy answer is, "go mine" but being a miner, means you need a babysitter (security), so the chain of "what makes more profit" comes down to "what the miners mine". If the miners mine iron then chances are the security job won't  pay much. If the miners miner Uranium though and the local leaders are on good standing with the local politics, then ythe job will pay so-so, but raiders will be a threat so-so as well. But if the miners mine Uranium and the local politics is summed up as "Mesopotamia circa 5000 BCE ", then you bet the security job will be paying darn well, because every day will be a new battle.

MY suggestion : Pick your pace in the game. You can always be an explorer and selling new mining sites to the interested parties.

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You can do whatever you want. Later down the road that is.

 

First everyone will mine to get money and as economy evolves, you might be able to make a living off of selling ships. Once the economy runs smoothly (kickstart it as tweak suggested) you can do whatever the market needs. Sell scripts, sell knowledge, sell information. I made my living in eve searching wormholes and selling the entrance to miners, PvP players or both lol

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I agree. Everything is possible, and there will undoubtedly be projects of an epic scale. It isn't really possible to speculate about the time scale or cost or hours required for such things, as we don't have enough info on the game mechanics yet. Not to mention that "epic" is subjective. What may seem like an epic construction project a month after launch will seem bland and unimpressive after a year or two. 

 

There will end up being networks of interactions that make the galaxy go around. Things like trade networks, business connections, and diplomatic negotiations will be both common and intricate. 

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My expectation is that instead of a few large organizations, there will be a multitude of small to medium-sized ones, each with its own specialty.  These will not be connected by a hierarchy, but by a network of commercial transactions.  They will interdependent, so none of them will really dominate the others.

 

If I am right, organizations will not have the resources to build whole cities.  There will be organizations that govern cities, but the buildings in them will belong to many different organizations, who will usually hire other organizations to design and build them.

 

I do not know if this has happened in any other game, but I expect Dual Universe to be different than anything that has come before.  In particular, it will have a very powerful system for defining organizations and with it, I think the organizations will resemble those in the real world, more than those in other games.  Companies are outsourcing functions they formerly had internal departments for.  Cities that were built around one huge factory are now surrounded by industrial parks filled with many different businesses.  It is just my guess, but I think we will see those same trends in Dual Universe.

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I am not really worried about large buildings NOT becomming a thing... and more worried about greifers   :(

 

It will be interesting to see how greifers are dealt with both within the community and and by NQ, i think that could be an entire discussion on its own.

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Welcome to the forums, and I think large cities will not be built fast. It will take a lot of time if people want everything to look good. So it will take years to have a planet with a giant city on it, unless many upon many people decide to work on this at once. However, these planets are not that small, and many different organizations will be building different cities.

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I'm not particularly interested in money.

Especially when we can mine, harvest, build on our own.

 

What will we place in giant buildings that will make traveling through them interesting enough to be worth the effort?

 

This is a really good question. I hope the buildings don't end up like many of the crafting games out there, where you build an amazing, giant structure and wonder what good it is when you can fit everything you need into a smal shack. Chances are that much of the space taken up in structures will be devoted to either storage or ship parking. I'm hoping there will always be diverse enough production and market facilities that they will also justify a decent amount of space.

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I'm not particularly interested in money.

Especially when we can mine, harvest, build on our own.

 

What will we place in giant buildings that will make traveling through them interesting enough to be worth the effort?

 

Thing is, you can't build everything on your own. You have to have training for building some things. You want pipeline modules? Find the modules in the market?

 

 

Oh you want to train and learn everything? I hope you got a lot of time, cause it's gonan take you a long while.

 

This is a really good question. I hope the buildings don't end up like many of the crafting games out there, where you build an amazing, giant structure and wonder what good it is when you can fit everything you need into a smal shack. Chances are that much of the space taken up in structures will be devoted to either storage or ship parking. I'm hoping there will always be diverse enough production and market facilities that they will also justify a decent amount of space.

Well, a space station that's a parking lot would need space for ships to park in.

 

But buildings on planets.

 

 

Since the devs said that materials need refining to use them as building blocks (the demos don't really count and I'll explain why) building a giant tower would be the equivalent of building an apartment building - each player of an org getting their own storage area / home / whatever. If te game was to have herp-derp "mine => build " mechanisms, it would make the game :

 

1) trollfest : mine an area around a place and build walls, disable the inhabitants from leaving their TCU.

 

2) pretty much make refineries obsolete.

 

 

So, building big is, like IRL, a group effort, for hosting a multitude of people. 

 

So why go through a large building? You won't, not if you go through the game solo. As I say many times, nobody is gonnna fly a solo battleship, nobody is gonna own a solo outpost.

 

Those things are group efforts and so are giant projects, like space stations and apartment buildings.

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Very true, but that still doesn't really address the problem of what goes into the structures, even at a group level. If all it is is storage that's still rather boring, even if it's all subdivided and arranged for a large group. There needs to be diversity of function for structures or else we will just end up with boxes full of stuff. 

 

I imagine there will be a plentiful variety, so the laws of logistics will ensure that structures will be interesting.

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I hope for basement refineries, huge meeting halls with (perhaps?) screens to visualize to your fellows what tactic you will use or what needs to be done (pretty please?), courts, bars, living quarters (well, cosmetic only and useless....), hidden rooms for illuminati meetings, churches for cthulhu, mad priests burning someone (did i really just write that?),...

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Very true, but that still doesn't really address the problem of what goes into the structures, even at a group level. If all it is is storage that's still rather boring, even if it's all subdivided and arranged for a large group. There needs to be diversity of function for structures or else we will just end up with boxes full of stuff. 

 

I imagine there will be a plentiful variety, so the laws of logistics will ensure that structures will be interesting.

The arguement can be made that players get bonuses for sleeping in beds ala Resting from WoW, while their toon stays "online" on the bed moduel and can be killed (as a possible risk), thus making said apartments a sort of a requirement if you want to get a minor boost to skill-training.

 

And beds is just an example, it could be a hybernation tank because we are in FutureSpace.

 

And such an apartement building would require a properly set up powergrid, and hey, if a person was to join the aparment buildthing, they could join the organisation behind the building and be required to pay a fee of X spacebucks a month as a rent. Why? Because TCUs won't be a dime  a dozen, and protection bubbles run of fuel, and so do the building your apartment could be in.

 

As for the functions part beyond that, that's simple. Have a facility that's part of an org like "X-Org Medical Faclity" so when you die, you respawn to a hospital - and with trauma mechanics, possibly your first stop on removing it would be to find a medical skilled player.

 

And I do think powergrid requirements and energy consumptions will just define a function for a building. You won\t be able to stuff a lot of guns, and a lot of shields and a lot of RNs and a bunch of refineries in one building. The economics behind it will be the limited factor - let alone, a huge waste of time and effort, putting one's eggs in one basket is a terrible idea.

 

While IRL, there is a place in Alaska that's an apartment building "town". It is fully fitted with a medical center, groceries stores, storage, police tation, and 200 inhabitants, all leaving in an enrmous apartment building. That can apply in DU in some form, that village / building in Alaska is built like that because of the crazy low temperatures they reach during the winter - and DU has respawn. So yeah, you could, theoretically, have a one building town, it's done in real life, but it depends on the players if they go for such a thing, or go for a broarder layout on a town.

 

I personally, can do both. I like myself some urban settings ,as well as Carl Uban-ing my way through an appatment building town like in Dredd's futuristic megacity blocks.

 

 

 

 

P.S. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittier,_Alaska

 

The aforementioned village in one building in real life.

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I will definitely try to replicate this in game:
 

The-Venus-Project-concept-city-3.jpg

 

It's efficient, modular and would be easy to do logistically and keep some design standard and consistency across. 

 

But I rather wondering what the big city itself could provide. People gathering in central hubs for a reason. Jobs and trade opportunities is the key. So I guess if someone is running some hidden megalopolis in galaxy far far away that nobody even visiting but the builders themselves... I can't see a reason for it. Big cities must attract not only members of 1 organisation but others. Be open hubs in order to grow it's own economy. Must be well planed when extension is needed, otherwise it will be one big pile of slums that will loose it's attraction power.

 

What I hope for is that on the claimed land, my org will be not only able to build such city but also welcome others, give them dedicated slice of it to build, or rent pre-build place to live or run business. Then as a city owner I would need to provide some services to make this place attractive and secure. For attractiveness, provide some events, space for doing expos, tournaments maybe even some sport events. But for security... well, we all know what big city really needs to run. Not that long time ago we had riots in city like London. Imagine wild word web ;)

 

So here is the tricky part. Would in-game system allow us to protect and manage it automatically? Or we would need to rely on people. If so... little shed will suffice. ;)

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I think a design like this would allow for a lot of utility and make sense in world such as Dual Universe. It's defensible, easy to navigate and likely easy to construct and maintain due to its highly regular nature. 

 

Personally, I hope there is some sort of renewable resource generation that is possible so as to make self contained cities viable. But even if there are no renewable resources available, cities will still be important hubs. 

 

I like it. 

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Here's how I see/plan on how a city will be built.  First, everyone will want a place to call home, so the community builds their homes close together and starts a neighborhood.  Then some marketplaces are added to stir the economy.  Finally factories, spacedocks, and other facilities added on.  Throw in some interesting places and advertising and before long you'll have a city built without even realizing it.

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