GunDeva

I heard from an unnamed ATV member, on an unnamed forum, that...
 

Megastructures are awesome, but I'm seeing a few flaws in your reasoning and thinking here. The first is that you disregard some projects because they wouldn't be profitable, like a space elevator or a ringworld. You should absolutely consider that people may do things because they can or want to, not because they'll be profitable. It is a game, after all.
 
You also dismissed several construction projects that would rely on construction mechanics alone, like space elevators and ringworlds, which are already possible in DU because all they need to exist are building mechanics. You then say that projects people do would actually involve other things, like Dyson spheres and black hole farming, which require completely unconfirmed mechanics to actually be profitable.
 
Nevertheless, I think you're too closely comparing EVE macroengineering projects (which are predesigned with specific benefits) to what people can and might create in Dual Universe, which could be anything, for any reason. Players could continuously add on to a construction in space for years, it doesn't have to be a specific dead set project with blueprints, just something vague that it's a "thing" to go and build whatever on.
 
The ideas and everything you have here are cool. Nothing against you at all, I don't mean to come off as hostile, I just think you're trying a fit Dual Universe mechanics into a specific EVE economy, which is inappropriate. People in DU can build whatever they want, and as such many people will be driven less by profit and efficiency, and more so by the ability to be artistic, creative, imaginative, and simply to say "because we could".

Nicely Done! 

Hate to break it to you, but the full subscription is a "fair price", even if you can only play one session per week. Compare it to other forms of leisure activity, it is not uncommon to blow the full price of the DU monthly subscription in just one session of other leisure activities. I find the price to be fair despite the fact that I'll be able to commit one, maybe two, evenings per-week to play at the most.
 
play or don't, that's up to you.
 
Not to mention, those of us who have the money where the price is no-object, often don't actually have the time to play a ton. Those of us who can actually afford to spend money on DAC's to use in contracts in-exchange for the stuff we'd have to grind for. The folks that actually do have the time to play tons and tons of hours (students, underemployed) woundn't be able to afford an hourly rate that would be player-footprint neutral.

and here i stumble yet on another great literature piece of people asking for free shit

I would like to suggest a different aspect of pay-to-win.  Instead of considering whether another player has an advantage over me because they sell DACs, I am going to talk about how I feel about selling them myself.  I do not intend to sell any.  When I play a game like DU, it is to see what I can accomplish in it, but it is the struggle that makes it satisfying, not the accomplishment itself.  In the sense that it would allow me to accomplish more with less effort in the game, selling DACs could be called pay-to-win, but it would be more accurate to call it paying someone else to play the game for me.  I only play games if I enjoy them, so to me it does not make sense to pay another player to enjoy it for me.
 
Everyone does not have the same idea of what is enjoyable, so I do not mind if other players sell DACs, but I consider the ones I got as a founder only as a pre-paid subscription.

**Warning** Nothing more useful I could add!!!

So I actually read this whole thing, Yes all 4 pages and all Ive really gotten is a headache...

But I have to agree I do no think there is anything wrong with the DAC system as I understand its use now but who knows what the future holds so dont quote me on this.

In one of the interviews I am sure they said it would take a year for players to build a space station like the one in the video but I am sure that time could be shortened depending how many people are working on it and the availability of resources.
I  think this might be the best option for most or you could build a smaller station with a modular concept to expand over time. 

The notion that PLEX or DAC are Pay2Win mechanics are nonsense.
 
Neither of these will buy you anything in game that will really advance your ability to progress any faster and by the time it would you will probably have enough in game wealth to buy what ever you want anyway.
 
In EVE, while you can use PLEX to buy injectors to sit in a Titan day one of you playing, you won't be able to use or apply what you gain effectively. In EVE, and I would certainly expect in DU, the _experience_ you gain through playing the game at a normal pace will _always_ have more impact.
 
I have actually tested this with someone who made the claim of Pay2Win in EVE. I gave him the injectors to skill  up and PLEX to omega his new account. He injected into a t2 exploration frigate with full T2 fit while I created a new alpha and started from scratch. Once I had my T1 exploration frigate we went to null space and started exploration, finding relic sites. After 5 hours he had died three times, lost his loot every time and gave up, he took (and lost) a total of about 350M from sites while flying (and losing) 200M ships. I had not died once, had close to 1.2B ISK in my cargo hold and came out of Null  in one piece in my 15M ISK Heron.
 
Similar experiments were done where experienced PVP players in T1 alpha toons would take on 'bought' beginners in T2 fits.. the experience would destroy the bought skills nearly always.
 
No, buying skill does not make you 'win' at a sandbox game like EVE or DU. Gaining experience will.
 

Hello PoisonKitchen,

I know the situation you're in just too well. 9 months ago, I stood exactly where you are now. I was looking for a simple programm as well, especially for DU designs.
I'm gonna be straight forward and tell you:
SketchUp is the tool you're looking for. It's free, it's super-easy, maybe the easiest program out there, and yet really powerful. The only downside to it is that you'll need exponentially more time for detailed art than you would with professional programs, as they are automated to a degree. SketchUp does not provide any automation, but that is one less thing to worry about since a lot of these automated functions in professional software also cause a few problems if not used 100% correctly all the time. SketchUp also only has less than 10 tools, where professional software has hundreds for everything imaginable. But that also means less to learn, and you can still do everything with those few tools provided. 

Maybe another, possible downside is that SketchUp does not have a built-in renderer. There are plugins for that though, some a free, some are cheap, and some will cost you 300 bucks. But rendering is a whole different topic.
Have a look at my first few creations. Each of them took be between three to five hours to finish.

 

 

 

 

 

 
SketchUp also has a free upload platform where you and others can 3D view your models with, I believe, umlimited storage space.

Like this:
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/9cf408f4-7a59-476a-872c-1878c1e2dc6a/Dual-Universe-ODY-Exploration-Crusier-Bulldog-V2

Hope I could be of help.

Is not how it works, you don't travel from sector to sector handled by different nodes, its a server that share the load and dynamically assign people based on where they are, Dynamically dividing space. So nobody will travel for glitches ;).
 
2k of us can be next to ark ship or spread across entire universe doesn't matter.
Lets say 20 nodes/100 players each will be assigned to node based on proximity.
If this is not good enough you can add more nodes. Spread the load.
 
Indeed the worst case scenario is, when everyone is at the same spot. Because even if smaller groups of people are being handled by different nodes, even if you have less frequent updates of people in visible range but physically handled by another node(s), nodes needs to send all data across. The part you sending it less frequently is clever, because greater delay will happen there anyway.
 
If we will spread and cannot see each other, that's a perfect scenario, because lets say small group of players went to different planet alone. They simply have dedicated node for themselves while still share same universe. Nodes do not have to communicate. Nobody cares if they dig up there or not. (as oppose to SE multiplayer solution  )
 
So... Arkship and surroundings will be a true stress test of what this system is capable of. Once we will start spreading we actually making server life easier.

Dual Universe Wiki :
 
Complexity
Bigger ships will certainly be harder to destroy/invade if they're built in a smart way by players. However, their toughness will be balanced. Due to their mass, they will be slower and less agile than smaller ships. Large weapon turrets will also be at a disadvantage against very fast ships. But nothing will prevent builders to create specialized ships, such as a huge battlecruiser full of small weapon turrets to hunt down hostile small and fast ships. But there will be a choice to make: energy consumption. Every module in a ship will require energy. So it won't be possible to have everything in infinite number, even on a large ship.
 
To answer your question yes but they have not stated what kind of modules you will be able to put on your ships! People building ship will probably have multiple system like space and atmospheric engines on there space craft! They will probably also have hybrid systems like taking a space engine and a atmospheric engine and combining them into one system that can fly in space and the atmosphere!  
 
The path that Dual Universe is taking is to mostly have players and not AI's do most of the work so these systems and modules might need someone to man them like a scanner , weapons , etc..
 
I will be working on weapons and weapons system maybe coming up with some exciting hybrid ones also, but my friend working on engines explained it to me so planning on making him some cool weapons and he will make me a cool ship with great engines because I know nothing about building ships or engines! I have ben a weapons smith and a armor smith in other games and that's what I love to do!  =)
 
I hope this answers your questions and I hope to see you in the pre-alpha!  =) 
 

With strong authentication, you indeed cannot brut-force the password.
Though, even the largest botnet won't find a 22 chars password before a very long time:
-> Combinations amount for a 22 long password with numbers, lower and uppercase characters are about (10+26+26)^22
-> Divide by 60*60*24*365 and you obtain something like 9 x 10^30 years (at ten requests per second).
-> Even with thousands of machines, it will take ages... and that's not even counting special chars.
-> Anyway, you will DDOS the game faster than you will find a correct password.
 
2FA (two factors authentication) does prevent you from phishing attempts and is a good security practice.
However, 2FA or not, you should never give your password to anyone, even if a verified NQ employee requests it.
The only exception is if a US customs officer asks you to unlock your account (you may refuse, but it is probably not a good idea). In this case, make sure to change all your passwords whenever possible (yes, I said "ALL").
 
Regards,
Shadow

A 22 char password isn't gonna stop some dude with a botnet from brute forcing you XD
 
It may take a month, but it'd be pretty inconvenient to have to change your password every month
 
2-Step Verification makes you essentially "brute force proof" in that they would have to have access to your text messages/e-mail/authenticator in addition to the brute force to get in. That, or figure out what your IP is and spoof it so the server thinks you're connecting from the same place you usually do (2-step usually only kicks in if you log in from a new or unusual location).
 
But imo it won't matter till the game is out. I mean, what are they going to do if they hack you right now? Make forum posts? Join an org? XD There isn't much they could do at this point.

I agree, knowing at least a few weeks before hand so that we can schedule better for it would be amazing. Though having been in other games Alpha testing I expect it will be something like this...
 
Weekend load testing (24-48 hours). Mid-Week mini-tests (testing a specific feature/etc).  
Generally they are developing during the week and release the changes for Friday-Sunday for feedback/data to accumulate.

Well I sure there will be a lot of players like me that work and don't have a lot of game time compared to someone that doesn't have to work and doesn't have a family to take care of?  I think NQ has  thought it out very well and I will most likely be using some of my DAC's to acquire the materials and parts I need and  I'm sure I will not be the only one doing that.  
 
Free to play seems like a griefers dream most people are not going to mess up what they have to pay for and like they said there are other ways to pay for a subscription with out paying money : sell blueprints , ore's , are work contracts to make game money and buy Dac's for subscriptions!
 
Seems like a great idea to me.

I refer you to NQ's official stance on the matter: 
 
 

(Posted Friday 8th of April 2016 on the DevBlog)        Today, we want to share with you our view on a delicate topic: how we plan to monetize our game. Monetizing an online game is a difficult exercise: if it's not profitable, it dies quickly. If it's overpriced, it turns off players and the game dies as well. Adding the fact that there is no monetization model fitting perfectly for every type of game and this can give a quite serious headache to make it right, even when the guys in charge have experience in the field. Finding the adequate equilibrium is never easy. We have given a lot of thoughts on the topic, collected feedback from the community and listed a number of related critical points and checked how each model is adapted for each of them. We wanted to share our conclusion with you.   Being able to play the game without spending money   Nowadays, this is an unavoidable topic when it comes to start playing a new game. This is something everybody would appreciate. It's possible in some context, but there is always some inconveniences to balance it. But let's see how each model can answer to this point:   Free to Play (F2P)

This model has been created around this very idea. It gives the opportunity to gather a bigger community and it becomes easier for players to find people to play with. However, it is very difficult to apply it flawlessly, and it's not always a fitting model for a game for many reasons, as you will see below. Buy to Play (B2P)

This model is completely the opposite. Even if sometimes you can test for a very short amount of time the game (limited in game time and/or gameplay), a player will have to pay the whole game at some point, and it might be a paywall that turns off players with a low budget.
  Pay to Play (P2P)

This model has evolved through the last decade and yes, it has become possible to play a game for free with a P2P model in its latest form, where the subscription fee can be optional. This evolution have already been successfully implemented by major MMO games, in particular Eve Online (the PLEX system) and it's the one we are interested in. How is this possible? In any MMO community, there are generally two player categories: those with a small/tight budget for games but a lot of free time and those who have a limited time to play games but a significant budget for them. Many activities in a MMO require a significant amount of in-game money. Acquiring a large sum of in-game money takes time. Players with a limited game time generally want to skip that step if they can. The system offers them to buy a token worth a monthly sub and trade it with  another player for in-game money. Players with a low budget for games can play for free if they invest enough time in the game and gather a large amount of in-game money to buy a token from a player selling one. As there is also a free trial period, a player who is really active may gather enough in-game money before the end, and continue to play without having to spend a cent. Basically, this is the reward for contributing to the in-game Economy. Everybody wins.     Responsibilizing players for their actions   Most of the players interact nicely between them without feeling obligated to do so but a small part always like to cause trouble (especially harassment or cheating), just to annoy other people or to gain an unfair advantage. In general, the Terms of Service (ToS) and more specifically End User Licence Agreements (EULA)  exist for the troublemakers. To discourage them to generate chaos in a community, the rules put in place need to be efficient, and all models are not equal in this regard.  
Free to Play 

This is one of the biggest weakness of the F2P model: Most of the troublemakers are players who do not spend money in the game. As they haven't spent any money, they generally don't care if their account(s) are banned. They just have to recreate new ones and can continue with the same behavior.
  Buy to Play 

In a B2P structure, a player wanting to make trouble will think twice before creating disorder in the community, if their account can be banned and they lose the money they invested to  buy the game. Of course, this won't make such behavior disappear completely. There are still a few people who will behave badly no matter what, but most troublemakers will refrain themselves if they have something to lose.
  Pay to Play 

On recent P2P games some features are locked on trial accounts (especially features that could be abused to gain advantages with an unlimited number of accounts or harass other players). Once the player has invested a significant amount of time in the game or paid for it, they are no longer in trial mode. Hence if the player start a ruckus, they have something to lose.     Getting a high-quality Customer Support   For a MMO game, Customer support is an important aspect that can make the difference between a player who stays and a player who leaves. Customer support is there to help players to solve any problems they have, be it a bug (in which case CS transmit it to the devs), a question, or a conflict with another player. Again, all monetization models are not equally designed to handle the task.   Free to Play 

F2P games usually have a number of players far more important than the size of the customer support team can handle. The size of the customer support team is dictated by the global income of the company, where the size of the community is not. This tends to degrade the quality of the support, as trade-offs have to be made to handle the increasing number of requests.
  Buy to Play 

Due to the fact that each player must pay for the game, the customer support team will be able to better manage the number of requests they have from the community as a part of the money coming from each sale can be allocated to financially support the customer support team. However, for an MMO (for which we can hope a very long life, like a decade or even more) this might cover the first years but after that, the situation will be the same as the F2P game, where the sustainability of the game will rely only on the players spending in a possible Cash Shop, unless a paid DLC or expansion system is put in place to generate revenue.
  Pay to Play 

This is the only long-term, healthy way to support financially high quality Customer Support. If budgeted well, the Customer Support team should be proportional to the size of the community and should be able to handle all players without prioritizing or favoring some players before others. Having a regular income is justified for permanent Customer Support. It's also true for other production costs like, for example, server maintenance (some MMO games have cheap server maintenance costs while other have expensive ones. It all depends on the amount of computation power needed on the server side. And on a game like Dual Universe, it will be far from trivial. This is the drawback for handling technological challenges).   So what's the conclusion?   We have synthesized a bit all the things that were taken into account, but you have here all the main reasons why we are aiming toward a Pay to Play model. In a nutshell, here's what we have planned: Free Trial period: between 2 and 4 weeks. Monthly subscription (optional with a PLEX-like system) Possible (cosmetic only) Cash Shop. If deployed, we will make it in order that every month, players who have paid a subscription will be able to get some cash shop items for free.   Of course, we will remain open to discussion on this topic like any other: don't hesitate to give us your feedback on the Social Media and/or on the forum!   The Novaquark Team.

Technically there's nothing stopping a company from paying you IRL to go into the game and put up a billboard with their ad on it.

This wouldn't help NQ make money, but individual players/orgs could make ad revenue. However NQ would be within their rights to not allow IRL companies to advertise in-game.

That is just not going to happen. Ads and all the stuff you mentioned ruin the game and it's not even going to be enough to mantain their expenses. Also F2p means cheaters and bots. F2p always means lower quality compared to a p2p counterpart. Du is P2P.
 
Now to quote your 4th point "4 A modification to the monthly subscription model. A way to get income from those who can’t handle the monthly subscription."
You can, just grind more and buy yourself a DAC from other players. 
 

Lore wise it doesn't make any sense, that's true
 
Plus you have to make absolutely sure that no one can RMT DU to death - which will happen at some point with such a system.
 
As for the playtime idea: please no. You pay because the servers are running 24/7. Your skills train with time. All your work is stored on the server. There will be patches (for free). So if someone plays 50h/year or 2000h/year doesn't matter - we're all in the same world with the same rules. You just can't split the playerbase or server into some guys who pay full, some who pay a little less and some who don't pay much at all.

I don't think it has anything to do with making DU stick around long term. Eve and WoW have been around for a long time with subscription, and the size of their player base isn't an issue. Actually Eve's player base is back to the level it was before they went to limited free-to-play. DACs are DU's free to play system. Even if you use one every 2 months or 3 months, you're still paying less. Plus NQ wants to provide quality support.
 
I'm against the idea of any IRL advertising.

Whether voluntary or not  - I already see enough advertising in real life.
Why should I watch (real) advertising in a game? If that were the case, then I demand low monthly fees for the game.

And now let's look at the lore:
The lore says that the world we know will no longer exist. So were we supposed to represent real products that will no longer exist in this world?
 
I'm against it.

Dual Universe Wiki :
 
Complexity
Bigger ships will certainly be harder to destroy/invade if they're built in a smart way by players. However, their toughness will be balanced. Due to their mass, they will be slower and less agile than smaller ships. Large weapon turrets will also be at a disadvantage against very fast ships. But nothing will prevent builders to create specialized ships, such as a huge battlecruiser full of small weapon turrets to hunt down hostile small and fast ships. But there will be a choice to make: energy consumption. Every module in a ship will require energy. So it won't be possible to have everything in infinite number, even on a large ship.
 
To answer your question yes but they have not stated what kind of modules you will be able to put on your ships! People building ship will probably have multiple system like space and atmospheric engines on there space craft! They will probably also have hybrid systems like taking a space engine and a atmospheric engine and combining them into one system that can fly in space and the atmosphere!  
 
The path that Dual Universe is taking is to mostly have players and not AI's do most of the work so these systems and modules might need someone to man them like a scanner , weapons , etc..
 
I will be working on weapons and weapons system maybe coming up with some exciting hybrid ones also, but my friend working on engines explained it to me so planning on making him some cool weapons and he will make me a cool ship with great engines because I know nothing about building ships or engines! I have ben a weapons smith and a armor smith in other games and that's what I love to do!  =)
 
I hope this answers your questions and I hope to see you in the pre-alpha!  =) 
 

I'm guessing that's what the intention is, to make it difficult for solo players to just go wrecking people's stuff while they are offline. But you will still need shield to be able to protect your stuff from large groups.