Owl_Superb

Yet NQ is still claiming that their tech is absolutely groundbreaking and cutting edge. This is from the CEO's public post just today: 
 
 
There's a fine line between being proud of the tech they made (which is fair for such a small studio) and arrogance about shit that's never worked at scale...
 
This idea that NQ was so advanced back in 2020 and so "ahead of the game" is so weird to me...almost as weird as using the term "metaverse frenzy" as if it became some explosively popular concept. 
 
This is how web3 / blockchain people often think, though...they care only about the idea, not the implementation or use case...and certainly not scale. 
 
I understand that NQ is doing what they think is best to survive, but I am really doubtful that they've learned any humility from their experience with DU as they continue to insist their tech stack is actually amazing despite legendarily poor performance, an ocean of bugs, and no proven ability to scale. 

The speed changes were another nail in the coffin of DU for me. There is no rationale to having mass-speed relationship, neither in physics nor in the game's lore or appreciable need. It could have all been handled with mass/acceleration - the "old school" way. More mass - less acceleration, less mass - more acceleration. Sure you couldn't outrun anything that's already heading in a direction at max speed, but as soon as you turned you'd gain lots of distance away from a heavy weight pursuer.

In a way, the clipped element debacle was the nerf way to go around something that could have been solved with buffs. Devs could have added more OP high-tier engines to satiate the need for speed, at the appropriate (high) cost, instead of messing with everyone's constructs even if they don't PvP. The turn rates also go nerfed for PvP reasons but affected 100% of people. This is all the examples of the wrong direction the devs took, and lets be really honest here - the only reason fast PvP ships were needed was to chase down the multi-mission haulers who weren't interested in PvP and rob them blind.

The speed changes were another nail in the coffin of DU for me. There is no rationale to having mass-speed relationship, neither in physics nor in the game's lore or appreciable need. It could have all been handled with mass/acceleration - the "old school" way. More mass - less acceleration, less mass - more acceleration. Sure you couldn't outrun anything that's already heading in a direction at max speed, but as soon as you turned you'd gain lots of distance away from a heavy weight pursuer.

In a way, the clipped element debacle was the nerf way to go around something that could have been solved with buffs. Devs could have added more OP high-tier engines to satiate the need for speed, at the appropriate (high) cost, instead of messing with everyone's constructs even if they don't PvP. The turn rates also go nerfed for PvP reasons but affected 100% of people. This is all the examples of the wrong direction the devs took, and lets be really honest here - the only reason fast PvP ships were needed was to chase down the multi-mission haulers who weren't interested in PvP and rob them blind.

The speed changes were another nail in the coffin of DU for me. There is no rationale to having mass-speed relationship, neither in physics nor in the game's lore or appreciable need. It could have all been handled with mass/acceleration - the "old school" way. More mass - less acceleration, less mass - more acceleration. Sure you couldn't outrun anything that's already heading in a direction at max speed, but as soon as you turned you'd gain lots of distance away from a heavy weight pursuer.

In a way, the clipped element debacle was the nerf way to go around something that could have been solved with buffs. Devs could have added more OP high-tier engines to satiate the need for speed, at the appropriate (high) cost, instead of messing with everyone's constructs even if they don't PvP. The turn rates also go nerfed for PvP reasons but affected 100% of people. This is all the examples of the wrong direction the devs took, and lets be really honest here - the only reason fast PvP ships were needed was to chase down the multi-mission haulers who weren't interested in PvP and rob them blind.

It's beyond stupid to ask players to read and obey rules that can easily be integrated into the game itself...but this is something that's been said many, many times.
 
Game rules are meant to be integrated into the game, and if NQ doesn't want to do that basic thing, at least they can have a lighter hand in enforcement. 
 
Hope you have fun in whatever game you find, @Cergorach! I'm sure there's plenty of other studios that would work much harder for your sub money. 

To revive DU:
- Restore underground Ores
- Remove schematics
- Add survival & AvA

To revive DU:
- Restore underground Ores
- Remove schematics
- Add survival & AvA

That is weird, currently my income from ore sales to NPCs is maybe 20% of my income, ~5% comes from the daily log in rewards and the rest comes from mission running...
I'm currently operating on Alioth (with a 3 day base on Thades for the Chromium), I've considered going to the outer planets, but the choices aren't great yet imho. I might go to the next batch of planets NQ releases or wait until they're all there... If income is an issue, maybe you've colonized too early?
 
I've currently got 16 tiles that are 'active', I've staggered aquisition in groups of three, so I'm not due one huge bill after a week. This is primarily T1 ore (with only one tile mining a little Limestone), and I'm using most of it for building more stuff. I get a little overproduction of Quartz, which I sell to NPCs (thus the maybe 20% income) and I buy the underproduction ore with like Coal (or Natron). I'm getting to a point where I overproduce a little in the en product department, I need to do some math and I'll probably be selling products on the market in a short while (the further decreasing sales to NPCs)...
 
Selling Nitron with max production skills is still profitable at 10q/L, the NPC orders are at 50q/L, those are NOT low NPC order prices. A Basic Atmo Engine M is 97.066q from an NPC order, the lowest PC sell order is 68.000q and at that price you're still making a super healthy profit.
 
What I'm reading in the OP is a ton of assumptions that you don't do your own research on and/or you're expectations are completely out of whack (sell prices being too low)... DU is hanging together from 'grind' missions, ore mining, ore picking up, automining, production chains, buying/selling, moving product from A to B, etc. That you don't like a certain kind of grind I totally 'get' though, but that doesn't suddenly make the rest of DU less grindy! I don't mind if the grind is fun, but many of the gameplay loops just aren't fun (or interesting) for repeated use (where is my fun NQ!?!? 😉 ). For me it's about the building up to something and the persistence in that, but we all know how NQ Advanced Screwed us over on that and left the door open to do that again (but that is for another rant).
 
My advise: Do some math, both on what things cost to make and what it's being sold for. Do some research on where to sell it and how to sell it.
 
Tips: You can make a tile an HQ tile, no taxes means no industry or automining, but a space station doesn't require taxes to do industry... Horizon has BPs for space elevators... Buy one, build one, deploy on your HQ tile, go to space, deploy Space Core and do all your production in there...

That building at Market 12 has got to go. And the markets should have a 5 km radius of free space around them. And they shouldn't be on the awful stilts - which we know are there to make placing markets easier for NQ on any terrain without having to level the ground first. Markets should be on flat ground, with massive parking lots around them and a few landing strips.
 
NQ are so lazy in the worst of the circumstances; they won't fix this, which creates more and more work for themselves and the support staff. A little bit of rework of the rules would go a long way into the future.

Imagine the public airports didn't have the height zoning restrictions in your city, what a roller-coaster ride that would be, fun fun fun!
And the many many crashes that would happen as a result of such poor policy making would be condescendingly explained - "an actual pilot would avoid obstacles fairly easily".
 

Imagine the public airports didn't have the height zoning restrictions in your city, what a roller-coaster ride that would be, fun fun fun!
And the many many crashes that would happen as a result of such poor policy making would be condescendingly explained - "an actual pilot would avoid obstacles fairly easily".
 

What a dense response. A 2km clear sky moratorium should be applied around all markets, should make it 5km for extra safety, since NQ's support staff are restoring player's crashed ships day in day out. Soon we'll all be forced to land vertically on markets as if through a well from 5 km altitude if this is allowed.

That building at Market 12 has got to go. And the markets should have a 5 km radius of free space around them. And they shouldn't be on the awful stilts - which we know are there to make placing markets easier for NQ on any terrain without having to level the ground first. Markets should be on flat ground, with massive parking lots around them and a few landing strips.
 
NQ are so lazy in the worst of the circumstances; they won't fix this, which creates more and more work for themselves and the support staff. A little bit of rework of the rules would go a long way into the future.

UPDATE
Given a conversation with NQ this weekend and expected rule clarifications next week (not sure which way, just clarified rules) I plan to continue playing for the moment. This might end up being like when you plan to quit a job, you are offered some so you stay, and you end up quitting 6 months later, but we will see. I honestly do want DU to work out, I didnt put 2 years of coding into it because I want it to fail. When you have a game with GM enforced rules, they must be clear and they must be enforced, especially in PvE areas where all other players have no recourse. If we had territory warfare and could have dealt with this on our own, it would be a totally separate situation. Anyway, ArchHUD will be maintained and continue to be improved for now (as much as I was ever able to improve it).
 
 
 
It is with some amount of deep regret that I say goodbye to DU.
 
I have tried to support the game, beyond ArchHUD, but NQ's attitude to blatant griefing is just too much.
 
This is not how you help a game grow.  We all know there are lots of issues, but I was hoping that the wipe and release would be a nice fresh start.
 
I want to thank everyone who has supported ArchHUD (and ButtonHud before that) and who have provided support and kind words over the 2 years.
 
I hated the fact we have T1 bots buying ore injecting unlimited quanta into the economy (why should coal be worth anything if no player willing to pay for it).
I hated there are bots selling elements (takes way player market niche setting ceiling prices)
I hated the fact that there is no decay of elements (life count is bugged, nothing on my ship goes below 2 lives left, and of course static elements never run out).
I hated that we didnt get Territory Warfare (original promise)
I hated that their solution to pvp problems was a stupid floor max speed no matter mass of ship.  (And floor burn speed no matter size of ship).
 
I was willing to overlook it, and hope they would make the game better, but ....
 
I cannot continue supporting a game where the dev's ignore blatant griefing and refuse to enforce their own rules.  (see below post).
 
So I am done.  I wish you all well, and will see you around the pond.
 
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
 
Archaegeo
 
(Regarding ArchHUD - I will leave it up for the time being.  I will not be providing support for it though going forward.  There are many who will, and someone might pick up the mantel).
 
<
>

@Archaegeo
Thank you very much for all your work.
 
I've used your script and I think it was FANTASTIC
I'm sad you're done with it, but I fully understand.
 
You gave me the controls, I never could code myself (and I say this as someone who cracked games in the early days using assembler)
 
My biggest RESPECT to you and the guys with you for what you have created.
Lots of respect ..
 
a lot .. hell a lot
 
sincerely
THANK YOU

Thank you Archaegeo, I've been using your HUDs since I've joined beta and I've got so much use out of them. Thank you, thank you, thank YOOOOOUUU!!!!

That would imply that NQ has game designers -- I'm honestly not sure they do. 
 
Here, they looked at this as a problem with game balance in an isolated way without remembering they are designing a game. They focused so much on trying to fix their problem, they forgot that they're making a game.
 
It doesn't matter if the solution meets their definition of balance or scale if that "solution" makes the game less fun and engaging. No one is seeing the fun in more micromanagement. 
 
This seems like such a basic design error that I can't believe they have an experienced design lead. The game will never see more feature depth...just endless refactors of failed systems. 

Well, subscriptions have run out a week ago. For me personally, DU has shut down. And I am not even feeling sorry.

OMG I am laughing so much I can't breath..  uhuhuhu.. you want..NQ.. to make a .. a.. roadmap.. with like. .decisions. and say things that are for sure.. and..and actually  follow it..!? I mean.. NQ..  stop! Your killing me!  stop!

Game launch - that's generally the time when access is given to the general public.
Does the general public have access to DU? Yes - I'm a paying customer since May 2021.

The "game launch" you speak of is just a marketing ploy. It is not the grand opening of the flood gates to the millions of eagerly awaiting enthusiasts who did not manage to secure a limited spot in a closed beta. In other words, few players are waiting to jump to DU when it "launches".

For Dual Universe the beginning of the "Open beta" was its true and only Game Launch.

So for the people playing DU right now this "game launch" has as much relevance as does the rain over the ocean for the fishes swimming in it.
My conservative estimate for a split between current players and new players post-"launch" is 90/10. As in 90% of players will be the existing players.

When you see it that way, you'll understand that screwing 90% of the user-base for the expectations of the 10% will be a stake through NQ's heart.

There still isn't a solid reason presented to do a wipe at all.

In games such as 7 Days To Die and Space Engineers wipes happen regularly, because in case of 7D2D the POI needed for quests get destroyed by players, and in Space Engineers the server slows down to a crawl as more constructs populate the world. The reason I've switched to DU is to get the benefits of not having to wipe for technical reasons. And there are still no good technical reason to do a wipe. All other reasons presented are social in nature and at best are unproven theories.

Exploits - people acquired undue wealth. Not a good reason to wipe, first of all because that would punish the 99% for the actions of the 1%. And second, the undue wealth has minimal negative affect on players in DU. There are plenty of rightfully rich guys, and that's a boon to the game - with large structures, tons of cheap elements for sale and newb friendly help and donations. You can argue that some PvPer are awash with T5 elements, but since when was PvP integral or even required in DU?

Level field - everyone wants to start level. Not a good reason to wipe, because that would punish 90% of current players for the (deemed - not proven) wishes of the 10% incoming players. We can argue about how many genuinely new players will join after "release", but seeing how the game was public and paid for 2 years now, the actual release has happened. Its doubtful that there will actually be many new players joining and staying once the official "release" is achieved.

Functional and feature changes - people seem to believe that when a game changes slightly its grounds for starting anew. Maybe in a simple game that would be true, but for a game like DU the start-up costs of getting established are immense, that's why players who are established would rather block changes than agree to redo everything again.

The wipe argument is between those who don't have much to lose, or don't mind losing even the immense riches against those who wouldn't want to repeat the arduous process to get to the same place they are in now. Its not a reason for a wipe, its a coping mechanism in the view of an impeding wipe, for which we still don't have an established technical reason.

If this wipe happens for the empty and inconsequential reasons above, then it is the death of the persistent universe and a qualitative shift in developer <-> players relations.

P.S. Changes that most have asked for (or at-least agreed with) like market clean up and tile expiration and abandonment have resulted in the current emptiness of DU. Be careful of what you wish for, as I feel that DU will be so empty if a wipe happens, we'll be lucky to see even a 1/10th of the current player base two months after that. Players are already leaving in-mass because of the whole wipe topic hanging up in the air.
 
Every second that NQ wastes "meditating" on what to do next is a bleeding wound of fleeing disenfranchised players.

I don't disagree with your take on that it's some form of p2w.
 
How do you feel about me taking a week of work to play DU, so I'm 'paying' a weeks salary to play more DU and get an advantage. Now I totally see people actually arguing that when you don't get something, you don't pay for it... So let me take the correct approach: As an employee I would get a bonus in money that I could get payed out to my bank account or buy additional vacation days with (this is quite common here). If I buy those vacation days, and use them to play more DU, is that p2w?
 
Now also think about the situation where multi account isn't allowed, that would impact the people who care about what NQ says is allowed and what is not. But the people that don't care about that, would totally have a huge advantage then. Just like what is now happening in pvp, people who cheat have a huge advantage over those that can't.
 
But imho this discussion is totally MOOT, because during the KS it was already apparent that NQ was going for a p2w model, with DAC. Even if multi account isn't allowed, people still can buy DAC and sell it for ingame stuff. That is direct p2w! In a game like EVE Online that really doesn't matter. Does it matter in DU though?

There still isn't a solid reason presented to do a wipe at all.

In games such as 7 Days To Die and Space Engineers wipes happen regularly, because in case of 7D2D the POI needed for quests get destroyed by players, and in Space Engineers the server slows down to a crawl as more constructs populate the world. The reason I've switched to DU is to get the benefits of not having to wipe for technical reasons. And there are still no good technical reason to do a wipe. All other reasons presented are social in nature and at best are unproven theories.

Exploits - people acquired undue wealth. Not a good reason to wipe, first of all because that would punish the 99% for the actions of the 1%. And second, the undue wealth has minimal negative affect on players in DU. There are plenty of rightfully rich guys, and that's a boon to the game - with large structures, tons of cheap elements for sale and newb friendly help and donations. You can argue that some PvPer are awash with T5 elements, but since when was PvP integral or even required in DU?

Level field - everyone wants to start level. Not a good reason to wipe, because that would punish 90% of current players for the (deemed - not proven) wishes of the 10% incoming players. We can argue about how many genuinely new players will join after "release", but seeing how the game was public and paid for 2 years now, the actual release has happened. Its doubtful that there will actually be many new players joining and staying once the official "release" is achieved.

Functional and feature changes - people seem to believe that when a game changes slightly its grounds for starting anew. Maybe in a simple game that would be true, but for a game like DU the start-up costs of getting established are immense, that's why players who are established would rather block changes than agree to redo everything again.

The wipe argument is between those who don't have much to lose, or don't mind losing even the immense riches against those who wouldn't want to repeat the arduous process to get to the same place they are in now. Its not a reason for a wipe, its a coping mechanism in the view of an impeding wipe, for which we still don't have an established technical reason.

If this wipe happens for the empty and inconsequential reasons above, then it is the death of the persistent universe and a qualitative shift in developer <-> players relations.

P.S. Changes that most have asked for (or at-least agreed with) like market clean up and tile expiration and abandonment have resulted in the current emptiness of DU. Be careful of what you wish for, as I feel that DU will be so empty if a wipe happens, we'll be lucky to see even a 1/10th of the current player base two months after that. Players are already leaving in-mass because of the whole wipe topic hanging up in the air.
 
Every second that NQ wastes "meditating" on what to do next is a bleeding wound of fleeing disenfranchised players.

Game launch - that's generally the time when access is given to the general public.
Does the general public have access to DU? Yes - I'm a paying customer since May 2021.

The "game launch" you speak of is just a marketing ploy. It is not the grand opening of the flood gates to the millions of eagerly awaiting enthusiasts who did not manage to secure a limited spot in a closed beta. In other words, few players are waiting to jump to DU when it "launches".

For Dual Universe the beginning of the "Open beta" was its true and only Game Launch.

So for the people playing DU right now this "game launch" has as much relevance as does the rain over the ocean for the fishes swimming in it.
My conservative estimate for a split between current players and new players post-"launch" is 90/10. As in 90% of players will be the existing players.

When you see it that way, you'll understand that screwing 90% of the user-base for the expectations of the 10% will be a stake through NQ's heart.

I have held back on my thoughts on this as a statement but this is how I feel. 
Unfortunately we are playing a Beta game. the developers did say there wouldn't be a wipe after alpha and there have been leaks and loose statements about a potential wipe since then. This has caused more harm than good. Personally what I would like to see is a very direct statement when its time. either we are not going to do a wipe or we are  and this is how. then list the reasons why technical reasons not social and List how this will help the game in the future. 
 
we all know sometimes in development wipes are important and have to happen. Some times when the devs them selves do not particularly want it to happen. while they are not public I know all of the devs do play the game and have invested leisure time into the game. Also I know the NQ staff are personally vested in the future of the game and its success as they rely on it for income and providing for themselves and their families. 
 
I do not think the developers want to wipe. If they did WANT to wipe it would have been a very clear statement from the beginning.  they would not have invested the time to help us save cores and dig out structures. Or give away warp beacons as rewards for events. While there has been post about pros and cons on wiping their actions  in game have shown that they want to world we have built to continue on. 
 
I think wiping for the reason of player balance is not a good idea. There will always be player balance issues. You will always have new players who have to catch up and old players who seem to own the stars. Its part of an on going universe. the difference is that in DU you have a community of people who want to help new players. Streamers who are here to support the game and help build up the player base. I think personally a wipe would hurt that. 
 
One of the biggest draws to du for new players is the creativity and seeing the things people have built and done in game. 
but to wipe because some players have to much is not a good reason. Every game has those who have more time and drive. Who will always do well. there will always be things that are exploitable.
 
Utilize those who have in game to help the game at launch. the existing server cleaning system is going to clear a lot of content when the server goes live due to players not paying for beta and alpha accounts monthly.  Let that aspect of the server do its job. That just provides more content for players. 

We as a community have to stop jumping onto what ever story we hear. Have a little faith in the NQ staff. Im not trying to fan boy them. But at the end of the day we have to realize. This is fun time for us. Its work for them. This represents their income and life. The last thing they want to do is to harm that. The developers are on our side. but first they are on the games side. And even though we might not like their actions at times. We have to acknowledge they will only do whats best for the game and company.  And if there is a wipe. In a few years it will be like it never happened. 
 
We will all be laughing about the stupid crap we did during beta while the nubs are looking confused