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UnderhandAerial

Contract / Agreement Function

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Hello dear DU-Community,

 

I think what Dual really needs is a 'Contract Function'. If you are a employee you want to get paid. As employer you want that your company works, so your workers have to work. You wont pay workers if they dont work.  Right?

 

But how I can be sure to get paid or how I can be sure that my employee worked x hours?

 

I want to mine somewhere but i need protection. I search for some mercenaries. But how they can be sure to get paid? How i can be sure that they wont kill me after mining?


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So you're saying there should be some form of formal agreement contracts, like 30% up front and the rest on completion, and then make some way for that to guarantee to happen, so that neither party is at risk of being scammed?

 

My thoughts on that are that it's just part of the game. You can't trust everyone, so you'd best find some people you do trust. And if you're going to hire some mercenaries, make sure they have a good reputation!

 

Contracts of that sort would be beneficial, but I feel that the game would still work fine without them.

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Perhaps you or they can't be sure 100%.

 

Perhaps both parties are interested in keeping a good reputation.

 

There is either risk or a hard forced game mechanic. What you could also do is arrange partial payment. Half or a third up front, rest afterwards. If you call for a game mechanic, you'd have to elaborate a bit more on how it would be ideal or how it could work from your POV.

 

I already assume there are management or player solutions to this, making a hard mechanic mostly obsolete.

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Maybe it can be some officials contracts, they assure you a pay. But it's not an obligation. You can work without contracts, depends of your boss, an organisation or some pirates ? A little miner or a rich boss etc

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I dont like the idea of a game mechanic that creates contracts. The players should be responsible for finding reputable players that will fulfill contracts. It was actually my goal to create an organization that is the middle man for contracts and assures only reputable players(WIP). 

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I dont like the idea of a game mechanic that creates contracts. The players should be responsible for finding reputable players that will fulfill contracts. It was actually my goal to create an organization that is the middle man for contracts and assures only reputable players(WIP). 

It don't need a dedicated mechanic, suppose there is an alliance of organisation on planet X, they control the politics of this planet. They can create a system to send official contracts. Without the help of the developpers. It's official cause it's a big organisation who paid. And they assure a pay.

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mmhmm, yes there will be tags and with a legitimate organisation or group of orgs you should be fairly secure.

 

A way to write up the contracts and post them to terminals with the terms and conditions you want personally would be nice.

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It would be nice to have some in game mechanism to do this but I think the scope of thing's people might want to do means that detecting completion and enforcing it between players would be difficult. So it should be more like if you break the terms of a contract with someone and they are affiliated with an organisation they will put a bounty on your head and you wont be welcome around certain parts anymore and organisations will have a reputation for either scaming people or being honorable.

 

Having the mechanic handle some of the admin like automatic payments and transferring items would be nice.

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It would be enough to have a "sign" function, so you can sign a contract but you can still break the rules but then I can show the contract the police of a organization and then they can do their work. 

 

And a receipt function would be awesome too.

 

 

"24.02.2022 Player Peter Member of Cinderfall and Player Hans Member of MyLittleBusiness......... traded XY.. blabla.."

 

It's a good thing for bigger organizations because they can check if the errand boy does his work without scamming you.

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Well they could add paper to the game or something you can write on and send or pass to other players.

The contract part could come in as an agreement between two players. But If one of the players doesn't go by the agreement then it ruins their reputation. And therefore that will stop them from breaking the contract out of the fear that no one else would hire them for a terrible reputation. 

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If implemented, you don't need some kind of 'reputation', because that implies a faction of some sort. My reputation score is bad, because I broke 20 contracts. Yeah nice, but to whom it is bad? To 1 out of 500 Orgs? To the ruling Org? That ruling Org might change - then my rep is perfect again...

 

It would make more sense if its just a plain number: 480/500 contracts fulfilled or something.

 

I would just prefer an emergent approach to this whole thing: get players to write some sort of contract they want, sign it out of game if needed and then do the job. Or don't. Let players figure out a way to deal with that basterd who scammed them and let them spread the word about that scoundrel.

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If implemented, you don't need some kind of 'reputation', because that implies a faction of some sort. My reputation score is bad, because I broke 20 contracts. Yeah nice, but to whom it is bad? To 1 out of 500 Orgs? To the ruling Org? That ruling Org might change - then my rep is perfect again...

 

It would make more sense if its just a plain number: 480/500 contracts fulfilled or something.

 

I would just prefer an emergent approach to this whole thing: get players to write some sort of contract they want, sign it out of game if needed and then do the job. Or don't. Let players figure out a way to deal with that basterd who scammed them and let them spread the word about that scoundrel.

 

I didn't mean an actual implementation of Reputation into the game as something that is measured. But rather players make deals depending on their trust or willingness to take risks and trust players. And they could base their trust on news that other Players have told them or what they have heard of them. 

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I think that consistently scamming people by not fufilling contracts is quiet a deed, and if anything I applaud the org that can keep doing it. 
If anything this will likely be a self-regulating thing. Scamming lowly-scrubs will be of almost no consequence, but won't likely provide a big-off, and scamming a large org. will surely have consequences when, and I think they will, retaliate. 
I think reputation will play a decent part in this game, and if your guild are known for scamming and not upholding your contracts, people will stop hiring you. 

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The reality is there will either be an in-game contract mechanic that is enforced, or the system will break down.

 

Anybody here play rust? You know how well alliances and shops work there? Answer is really really poorly. The kinds if players that like that system and will continue to want to play it are the ones that WILL ABUSE it. If you want to play in a world where orders and contracts actually get filled, there will NEED to be a mechanic that enforces it.

 

Probably it'll work as such: there is something like a contract builder. You specify the reward and quantity, where the reward physically is, and the contract holds it until the contract either expires or is filled. You specify the conditions for success, any collateral for accepting the contract (the cost for loosing a shipment for example), and once a contract is accepted, the game itself would track success, failure, and payment. Much like the way the devbog discussed how remote purchases work, the contractor might have to physically go pick up the reward if it isn't liquid cash.

 

Eve has such a contract system, and given that this game conceptually borrows a great deal form eve, we can expect something similar here.

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Well DU can be better than eve and support more emergent gameplay. No need for eve 2.0 system. Players will regulate scammers and contracts themselves

Doubt it! It'll just be an anarchy scumshow where no one trusts anyone, because mainly only scammers will be interested in such a system.

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A contract system might not work so well for rather vague deals, i.e. a privateer. A privateer might get hired to "harass" another corporation. It would be impossible for a computer to say when that was accomplished.

 

I would suggest that verification be a third party system. Whenever a trade or deal is made, all the information about the deal is contained in a parcel of information called a "trade packet." With a trade packet you get a unique ID generated. Call it the trade ID. NQ would be the third party responsible for storing the packet and the ID.

 

The two players making the trade get tagged behind the scenes with the trade ID. Anyone with the trade ID tag can look up the trade packet from NQ. Using this, it would be then possible to independently verify details of a trade. You could tag your boss and say "Yes I did deliver, look here." The boss could then use an in-game lookup function to look at the trade packet. Using a system like this would enable you to verify, but not enforce contracts.

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If this emergent gameplay gets mature enough, we might see organizations providing insurances/reputation/controls/punishments to contracts.

You will then only need to trust such an organization.

Or maybe I'm too naive :unsure:

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Yeah well if the 'good guys' let the scammer be then there will be anarchy. So in fact it's up to YOU to stop scammers and show them, that they shouldn't mess with you. You really should see both sides and not always cry about bad boyz

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A contract system might not work so well for rather vague deals, i.e. a privateer. A privateer might get hired to "harass" another corporation. It would be impossible for a computer to say when that was accomplished.

 

I would suggest that verification be a third party system. Whenever a trade or deal is made, all the information about the deal is contained in a parcel of information called a "trade packet." With a trade packet you get a unique ID generated. Call it the trade ID. NQ would be the third party responsible for storing the packet and the ID.

 

The two players making the trade get tagged behind the scenes with the trade ID. Anyone with the trade ID tag can look up the trade packet from NQ. Using this, it would be then possible to independently verify details of a trade. You could tag your boss and say "Yes I did deliver, look here." The boss could then use an in-game lookup function to look at the trade packet. Using a system like this would enable you to verify, but not enforce contracts.

Sounds like it could work, alternatively someone looking to harras another org could just create a sleu of bounties for unilaterally taking out various aligned ships and players, effectively paying privateers per-head by allowing multiple players to take-on the same contract and having it pay out to the first to accomplish a given task.

 

Wipe out the starship Kerebos: 1,500spacebux

Kill snipeguy: 750spacebux

Destroy lootcrate A on planet X: 25,0000spacebux

 

Etc

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Yeah well if the 'good guys' let the scammer be then there will be anarchy. So in fact it's up to YOU to stop scammers and show them, that they shouldn't mess with you. You really should see both sides and not always cry about bad boyz

The existance of contracts would not make handshake deals impossible either, you are welcome to work outside of contracts even if such a system is present. :) see how it works out

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I would suggest that verification be a third party system. Whenever a trade or deal is made, all the information about the deal is contained in a parcel of information called a "trade packet." With a trade packet you get a unique ID generated. Call it the trade ID. NQ would be the third party responsible for storing the packet and the ID.

 

The two players making the trade get tagged behind the scenes with the trade ID. Anyone with the trade ID tag can look up the trade packet from NQ. Using this, it would be then possible to independently verify details of a trade. You could tag your boss and say "Yes I did deliver, look here." The boss could then use an in-game lookup function to look at the trade packet. Using a system like this would enable you to verify, but not enforce contracts.

This seems like a good idea to me!

 

Let's say I run a product transport business. I am hired by a market to deliver purchased items to one of their customers. The market has a good reputation for paying its employees, and I have a good reputation for delivery. If a system such as this existed, we both have the added benefit of being able to verify that the terms of the contract were met.

If I make a mistake, such as forgetting to deliver a portion of the merchandise, the market can see that and remind me. Once I finish the delivery, I can get paid.

 

So, I finish the delivery, and the customer I delivered to has some goods of his own he wants to transport back to the market. Let's face it, nobody is going to know the names of ALL the reputable companies for EVERY type of job. (Builders, miners, pilots, transporters, etc.) This is the first purchase that he has had delivered, and has never had any reason to look into reputable transporters. At this point, he has to decide whether or not to trust me with the job based solely on the fact that the market trusted me with theirs.

I am not saying this is a bad thing, since it encourages markets and transporters to choose each other wisely, as hiring/working for someone with a bad reputation could cost you jobs or even harm your own good name.

But... since he has access to a system that allows him to check on whether or not I completed the contract, he feels comfortable enough to hire me based on the market's reputation.

 

I do think that a mechanic that establishes penalties for failing to complete a contract, or keeps track of the number of successful contracts might push the boundaries of reputation-based decision making. It could also penalize unavoidable failures to complete a contract. ( computer crashed, ship destroyed, etc.)

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a) I'm reeeeeeeaallly irked that we could possibly see the creation of contract lawyers as a profession in game. It's just.... so wrong for so many reasons... :P It's meant to be humanities rebirth people!  :(  :(

 

b ) (stoopid emotes...) So, essentially, the contract system is really a quest system...

 

(Note - not against it as a discussion - some really nice ideas in here. But yeah - emergent gameplay says such a system should just be something we make. There is no real world "game mechanic" that forces people to fulfill contracts other than pure reputation at the end of the day - yes there may be legal systems, but in reality, it is the choice of the individual to decide to fill the contract, not fill it, scam it, etc - you can't actually *force* people to do it. I also don't think NQ should be our escrow service - it's something we as players need to work out - diff orgs as "governments" may have different ways they want to deal with this.)

 

(Plus I'm out of votes for the day - OP - consider this topic liked - it's a nice one, will do so in 24 hours :) )

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Workers, emlloyers... o my God... maybe slaves?

Unnecessary trash. Spend hours/days on designing and coding for the thing which won't work.

 

This is game, not real world! Idiots will spend lot of time for less valued and boring work. Be realists and stop fly in silly dreams...

 

Archonious

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