THE FUTURE OF DUAL UNIVERSE - Discussion thread

[Atmosph3rik]

2 hours ago, Vazqez said:

Since I'm putting in my real money, I don't want to be deprived of it.

 

The problem here is that the only reason you want more Quanta is that you don't have as much as you need.  The easier they make it for you to earn Quanta the faster you'll get to the point where you have so much Quanta that you have nothing to spend it on.

 

If it's too easy to get Quanta, then it has no value at all.

 

The original plan was for DACs to be for sale, and tradeable in game.  If you wanted more Quanta faster, you could buy DACs and sell them in game.

 

If we had that option at least there would be a way to offset the frustration of not having enough Quanta early in the game.  Without completely destroying the in-game economy.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Atmosph3rik

[Vazqez]

5 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

8 hours ago, Vazqez said:

Since I'm putting in my real money, I don't want to be deprived of it.

 

The problem here is that the only reason you want more Quanta is that you don't have as much as you need.  The easier they make it for you to earn Quanta the faster you'll get to the point where you have so much Quanta that you have nothing to spend it on.

you got it wrong..It's not about more game currency

 

Any reference to the original assumptions of the game is a mistake. These assumptions (principles) did not prove true.

otherwise
The original rules are not good...

 

it's the bad rules that will be the downfall of the game.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Vazqez

[McXerXes]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:25 PM, Sethioz said:

if there's another wipe, then i'm going to wipe this game from my pc forever. NQ doesn't seem to understand how big of an mental impact it is to those who like to create things and have put lot of effort and time into the game, it's like paying for house or car just to lose it all without getting any money back.

 

wipes are biggest mmo killers. if they want to kill the game, then wipe is good way to go tho.

Steal Player creations and resell again without asking  is for me also and all other cretors has also a mental  impact. Don`t react on concerns is slap into face

[Pleione]

22 hours ago, Wyndle said:

While I concur with your observation that unwanted PvP is detrimental, it is optional; based on where you choose to go.  If you stumble into an active paintball field don't be surprised if you walk out with paint on you.  If you cannot stomach PvP then only fly the safe zone missions.  PvP players got more attention but they were not the only ones who had complaints or suggestions addressed/adopted in the game.

 

 

In general I agree with the Op, but the analogy is weak.  Paintball fields representing an infinitesimally small percentage of places one could stumble into, and are often fenced in to prevent such stumbling.  Personally, had that been the approach for PVP, I would have been fine with it. 

[Atmosph3rik]

9 hours ago, Vazqez said:

you got it wrong..It's not about more game currency

 

Any reference to the original assumptions of the game is a mistake. These assumptions (principles) did not prove true.

otherwise
The original rules are not good...

 

it's the bad rules that will be the downfall of the game.

 

 

 

 

What is it about then?

 

The only way PVP really affects the Aphelia missions is that it forces you to put a bit more time and thought into how you do them.  If there was no PVP you could fly straight from point to point.

 

Without PVP, the missions wouldn't be exciting or interesting and they wouldn't require any strategy at all.  It would just be another task that you have to do if you want more Quanta.  Hit the feeder bar, wait, and receive your reward.

 

I do think that it's a big problem for the game right now, that for a new player just starting out they are a long way away from having enough Quanta and talents to do what they might want to do in the game.  But i don't think removing PVP would fix that.

 

When the game had momentum, when it felt like it was growing rather than coasting, it might have been reasonable to expect people to just enjoy that time.  But the way things are going now, i don't think most new players will last that long.

 

But it doesn't make sense to say the original plans for how the game would work aren't good or aren't working when we don't have all the features that were planned.

 

DACs were the way that new players were supposed to be able to get a head start if they wanted one.  And they were also supposed to be something that you could spend Quanta on, once you had more then you needed.

 

I also think there should be a way to speed up talent gains too.  If there was a higher tier of subscription that you could buy or activate by using multiple DACs that would give new players a way to catch up.  Rather than forcing customers to manage multiple accounts if they want to pay for an advantage, just let us pay extra for that same advantage on one account.

 

 

 

 

[blundertwink]

13 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

When the game had momentum, when it felt like it was growing rather than coasting, it might have been reasonable to expect people to just enjoy that time.  But the way things are going now, i don't think most new players will last that long.

 

The game isn't even "coasting" at this point.

 

At launch a year ago, it hit its spike of ~800 concurrent players. Several months ago, it was down to under 100 concurrent players in a 24 hour period. 

 

Now, it's down to ~30-40 concurrent players -- weekend peaks aren't even topping 50 players. There's a huge number of not-very-good single player games that are even older than DU with stronger stats than these. 

 

By comparison, "New World" is largely considered an MMO flop, but still has over 1000 concurrent players per day. 

 

So...from a stats perspective, the game hasn't even hit a plateau and is still bleeding players month-over-month. From an all-time high that wasn't very strong to begin with. 

 

It's fairly clear they don't plan anymore big changes to the game and have focused their ~80 employees (that number is per a recent comment by the CEO) onto other things. 

 

I wish companies like NQ would just be honest. It's fine to leave the game running for those that still enjoy, but stop pretending that it's an active MMO under development when it clearly, clearly isn't!

 

Nothing will get fixed because they won't devote their limited resources to a failed project.

 

I feel sorry for those new players joining that expect they are paying every month for a live game with a future; there's no indication that the game will ever see another major patch, nor does NQ have any interest in respecting their customers enough to be honest about the game's state. 

 

It's rare that companies are able to create negative brand value, but considering their history and their plans for the future...NQ just isn't trustworthy to me. Three projects other than DU, but you're still pretending that people are working on it? 

 

I can't wait to see what inane web3/NFT crap they will try to peddle in the months and years to come and won't be sad when those efforts implode like every other scam in that space. 

[Wyndle]

19 hours ago, Vazqez said:

This approach will destroy this game.
Since he wants to have access to the entire game.

Since I'm putting in my real money, I don't want to be deprived of it.

The current state clearly proves that people don't want to be robbed, so they stop playing.

 

Only a change to the current rules can bring about a change in the number of players.

The current game model has not worked.

 

11 hours ago, Vazqez said:

you got it wrong..It's not about more game currency

 

Any reference to the original assumptions of the game is a mistake. These assumptions (principles) did not prove true.

otherwise
The original rules are not good...

 

it's the bad rules that will be the downfall of the game.

 

I'll give you the benefit of doubt.  You're making some of the same arguments that I and many others have been making for years.  

 

"This approach will destroy this game" - Too late.
"Since he wants to have access..." - Part of the game is PvP and was part of the plan from the start.  Want access to all the game then don't complain about PvP unless you're providing specific examples and potential improvements (that will mostly be ignored by NQ in my experience).
"Since I'm putting in my real money..." - Buyer beware.  That money is gone and you stepped into a restrictive ToS in the process.

"The current state... ...they stop playing" - Again, too late.  Don't believe me?  Ask any of the dozens of Alpha players that rage quit or the hundreds of Beta players that silently quit... oh, too late yet again.

"Only a change to the current rules..." - We're light years beyond rule changes alone being able to salvage things.

"Any reference to the original assumptions of the game..." - Isn't that the definition of starting with a flawed plan?  If you disagree with the initial premise of the game and you disagree with the current rules of the game how can you expect forum conversations to fix either/both?

 

I'm sorry to be the one to break it down for you this way.  There's a ton of history that your comments demonstrate you are not aware of.

[Wyndle]

2 hours ago, Pleione said:

 

In general I agree with the Op, but the analogy is weak.  Paintball fields representing an infinitesimally small percentage of places one could stumble into, and are often fenced in to prevent such stumbling.  Personally, had that been the approach for PVP, I would have been fine with it. 

Yes, the analogy is weak.  Would you prefer I try to draw parallels to WoW PvPers vs Raiders vs Casual players?  Not worth the effort IMO. 

[Vazqez]

5 hours ago, Wyndle said:

"This approach will destroy this game" - Too late.
"Since he wants to have access..." - Part of the game is PvP and was part of the plan from the start.  Want access to all the game then don't complain about PvP unless you're providing specific examples and potential improvements (that will mostly be ignored by NQ in my experience).

Maybe it's the translator's fault that you didn't understand.

PVP should be an option, not a requirement.

for example.
If I want to participate in PVP, I switch my core to PVP mode and fight anyone who has this mode activated.

 

 

Many people who left were forced to fight PVP.i

If they had a choice, they wouldn't do it and stay in the game.

[Wyndle]

Just now, Vazqez said:

Maybe it's the translator's fault that you didn't understand.

PVP should be an option, not a requirement.

for example.
If I want to participate in PVP, I switch my core to PVP mode and fight anyone who has this mode activated.

 

 

Many people who left were forced to fight PVP.i

If they had a choice, they wouldn't do it and stay in the game.

I understood.  I agree with you that PvP should be handled different from how it is.  Your and my opinions are not going to change the Dev team's approach a year after launch if the thousands of Alpha and Beta posts you never saw didn't sway them while those features where being developed.  As of right now there does not appear to be any further development planned or happening.

 

Some people left because of bad PvP experience(s) but the vast majority left because there isn't really a game here, only the vague outline of one.

Don't worry, I won't pester you anymore after this post.

 

Have a blessed day.
 

[Atmosph3rik]

31 minutes ago, Vazqez said:

PVP should be an option, not a requirement.

for example.
If I want to participate in PVP, I switch my core to PVP mode and fight anyone who has this mode activated.

 

 

PvP is optional.  You just can't have the rewards from PvP, without risking the PvP.

 

You can choose the option to warp between planets and avoid PvP, or you can choose to not spend the warp cells and risk PvP.

 

You can choose to run missions for Aphelia, but if you choose the ones with the highest reward, then you have to risk PvP.

 

You can choose to mine asteroids, but if you choose to mine asteroids in the PvP zone, you are choosing PvP.

 

In all these situations PvP isn't just there to entertain the people who want to shoot at other people, it's also there to force you to choose between the easy way and the hard way.  The lower reward versus the higher reward.

 

If you want to avoid PvP completely you can still do safe zone missions, safe zone asteroids, territorial mining, industry, and the PvE missions now too.

 

PvP is part of the game and part of making PvP fun is that there is a reward for being good at it, or being good at avoiding it.

[Vazqez]

7 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

PvP is optional.  You just can't have the rewards from PvP, without risking the PvP.

 

You can choose the option to warp between planets and avoid PvP, or you can choose to not spend the warp cells and risk PvP.

 

You can choose to run missions for Aphelia, but if you choose the ones with the highest reward, then you have to risk PvP.

 

You can choose to mine asteroids, but if you choose to mine asteroids in the PvP zone, you are choosing PvP.

 

In all these situations PvP isn't just there to entertain the people who want to shoot at other people, it's also there to force you to choose between the easy way and the hard way.  The lower reward versus the higher reward.

 

If you want to avoid PvP completely you can still do safe zone missions, safe zone asteroids, territorial mining, industry, and the PvE missions now too.

 

PvP is part of the game and part of making PvP fun is that there is a reward for being good at it, or being good at avoiding it.

And this sick ideology destroyed this game. And it was this sick approach that drove the players away.

Your philosophy has proven that it takes only a few people to ruin the game for many people/

They should change it, they have nothing to lose anyway.
The departure of 40 PVP players will not change anything.
But the arrival of 1,000 players who don't want PVP is enough.

 

[JohnNoGoodman]

I found my freedom in Starfield.

Not an MMO but it has elements of DU that I find comforting. 

The future of Dual Universe - there is nothing dual about it. The singularity that was DU is now a dense dwarf where nothing moves. Ever. 

This i good bye. The final good bye since I leave this forum as well.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by JohnNoGoodman

[Wyndle]

5 hours ago, Vazqez said:

And this sick ideology destroyed this game. And it was this sick approach that drove the players away.

Your philosophy has proven that it takes only a few people to ruin the game for many people/

They should change it, they have nothing to lose anyway.
The departure of 40 PVP players will not change anything.
But the arrival of 1,000 players who don't want PVP is enough.

 

We get it, someone blew you up.

 

Claims that the entire game is totally wrong for "sick ideology" is selfish at best.  If you do not like the game as is then leave.  There's only a few million other games to pick from. There are many reasons other than PvP that caused people to leave.  You made your opinion clear and several people have attempted to communicate about the situation. 

 

Even if DU took PvP out of the game this very instant it wouldn't attract 40 new AND old players combined at this point but there would be hundreds (dozens?) of people who want PvP that would rage quit.  This game is already on life support.  Even the people I know who will keep playing until the servers are shut down recognize that DU is on borrowed time.  

[Atmosph3rik]

7 hours ago, Vazqez said:

And this sick ideology destroyed this game. And it was this sick approach that drove the players away.

Your philosophy has proven that it takes only a few people to ruin the game for many people/

They should change it, they have nothing to lose anyway.
The departure of 40 PVP players will not change anything.
But the arrival of 1,000 players who don't want PVP is enough.

 

 

I don't do PvP at all personally.  I've only been shot at once in all the years i've been playing this game.  And i've never shot at anyone else.  But i think PvP should be part of the game, because it adds something else interesting to do for people other than myself.  And missions and asteroids would be very boring if there was no risk at all.

 

I have spent years on these forums arguing with other PvP players using the same faulty arguments that you are using, to claim that the game shouldn't have a safezone at all, and they should be able to attack everyone, all the time.

 

They made similar claims, that the safezone was ruining the game, and everyone would leave if they didn't remove it, and if there was no safezone all of their thousands of friends would come play the game immediately.

 

So maybe they were right, and the safezone ruined the game.  Or maybe you're right and PvP ruined the game.

 

But i think you both sound selfish and shortsighted.  And that more options for everyone makes a game more fun for everyone.

 

The only thing that is going to bring 1000s of players back to this game is MORE content, not less content.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Atmosph3rik

[Vazqez]

I have never written anywhere to turn off PVP.
I wrote and I write that PVP is to be optional,

It's a big difference.

 

As the previous speaker wrote, the DU is connected to life support equipment.

Doing nothing is only delaying death.

[Atmosph3rik]

6 minutes ago, Vazqez said:

I have never written anywhere to turn off PVP.
I wrote and I write that PVP is to be optional,

It's a big difference.

 

As the previous speaker wrote, the DU is connected to life support equipment.

Doing nothing is only delaying death.

 

 

If any player can turn off PvP at any time, the game doesn't have PvP anymore.  It's just has duals.  There would be no reason to do PvP, and no risk at all to farming the parts of the game that were designed to be made more challenging by including PvP.

 

Removing a feature from the game, so you can do whatever you want for a week or two, and then get bored and go play something else, isn't going to revive the game.

[Vazqez]

1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Removing a feature from the game, so you can do whatever you want for a week or two, and then get bored and go play something else, isn't going to revive the game.

 

You don't know that.

But it is certain that the current situation and rules will not revive it.

 

A player who, after some time, decides that he wants to try his hand at PVP. He will build a ship and start fighting. The difference is that it will be his conscious decision.

 

And even if he lost and was destroyed, he will stop fighting and focus on rebuilding.

And most importantly, don't give up the game.

[Atmosph3rik]

27 minutes ago, Vazqez said:

You don't know that.

 

You don't know either.

 

But i've got 5 more years of experience watching NQ struggle to make the game fun, and please everyone all at once.

 

I've watched the PvP players demand more and more, and they got a lot of attention.  And they are pretty much all gone now.

 

I've watched people demand that NQ level the playing field with a post-launch wipe, and they got what they wanted, and they are all gone now too.

 

And i've spent years arguing for PvP to be optional instead of being forced.  But you're the first person i've seen demanding that you should be able to have all the PvP rewards, without risking any PvP.

 

Being able to turn PvP off wouldn't change anything for you except it would allow you to farm PvP content more easily, and possibly troll people in the PvP zone with your invincible ship.

[Vazqez]

1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

You don't know either.

 

But i've got 5 more years of experience watching NQ struggle to make the game fun, and please everyone all at once.

 

I've watched the PvP players demand more and more, and they got a lot of attention.  And they are pretty much all gone now.

 

I've watched people demand that NQ level the playing field with a post-launch wipe, and they got what they wanted, and they are all gone now too.

 

And i've spent years arguing for PvP to be optional instead of being forced.  But you're the first person i've seen demanding that you should be able to have all the PvP rewards, without risking any PvP.

 

Being able to turn PvP off wouldn't change anything for you except it would allow you to farm PvP content more easily, and possibly troll people in the PvP zone with your invincible ship.

 

My friend, you are confusing concepts.

 

You keep telling players that PVP is optional, but it isn't.

 

There is no such thing as PVP content.

 

because it is a definition of activity related to PVP. And if there is no PVP, there is no PVP content.
you use contractual terms.

the difference in our philosophies is that you divide content into PVP content and non-PVP content.

 

And I say that there is only one content,
PVP can take place anywhere, but on one condition.
It must be a conscious choice of both sides.

 

(I agree with you here. PVP content will be created in the form of a destroyed ship which will be awarded to the winner)
According to the principle, "Be careful who you kill."

 

There's not much that can be done to revitalize this game

 

and I'll also brag about it, I've been a gamer for over 30 years and I've played a lot of games. And believe me, the games on ZX Spectrum were also interesting and addictive.

 

[cerveau]

PVP is optional.

 

If you decide you need the ore from roids in the pvp zone, and then you make the decision to go for it. At that point you are accepting that you might be blown up, you wont want to be blown but you are accepting the chance you might be, against your wishes.

 

When you cross the safe zone border, it even tells you "you might be attacked" If you ignore that message, again you are accepting the risk of being attacked.

 

its that simple.

 

If you decide you cant stomach the thought of being blown up you DONT go for the ore or dont do the mission in pvp space.

 

PVP is optional, you can decide to enter pvp space and risk it

OR you can totally avoid pvp space.  - Its your choice and therefore Optional

 

im not even a pvper, ive been called "Carebear" but even I understand PVP is optional and can be totally avoided.  -BUT- if you want the rewards found in PVP space, then you have to equally take the Risk.

 

 

you said : "And I say that there is only one content,
PVP can take place anywhere, but on one condition.
It must be a conscious choice of both sides. "

 

but that isnt the game rules NQ decided on, you can only play the game they give you.

 

[Vazqez]

4 hours ago, cerveau said:

 

but that isnt the game rules NQ decided on, you can only play the game they give you.

Well, almost

Bad philosophy again
  What NQ provides needs to be changed,
You have accepted the NQ narrative and defend it, and I and all those who have left do not agree with the principles of MQ.

NQ rules have no future and lead to collapse.
Only a radical change gives you a chance of success.

Just like someone wise said
Repeating one action and expecting a different result is idiotic.

[CptLoRes]

I... have nothing to say. It has all been said so many times already, and the outcome is always the same.

[Wyndle]

20 hours ago, Vazqez said:

And I say that there is only one content,
PVP can take place anywhere, but on one condition.
It must be a conscious choice of both sides.

 

That is based upon your ideal of what PvP should be, not the rules of the game you agreed to the ToS for.  Your opinion is still valid, but it does not force any game maker to change anything.

 

Time for a less weak analogy:  Walk into a war zone and yell at the guys with guns that you don't want to fight them.  If you walk back out then you may want to consider buying lottery tickets too.

 

4 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

I... have nothing to say. It has all been said so many times already, and the outcome is always the same.

 

I'm on the fence here.  Its either a horrible break in communications or an elaborate trolling.  I am invested in helping the former and kicking myself for the latter.

[Vazqez]

15 minutes ago, Wyndle said:

That is based upon your ideal of what PvP should be, not the rules of the game you agreed to the ToS for.  Your opinion is still valid, but it does not force any game maker to change anything.

You don't understand again. I don't force NQ to do anything. It's their game, not mine.
I'm currently not subscribed to the game and I'm telling you why.
I don't agree with the rules of the game, that's why I don't subscribe.
I want to help NQ
I want to help DU.

The reason for the fall of DU will be the rules that are in force now. And I am sure of that.