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Warp is safe.. or is it (possible exploit being used)


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@NQ-Deckard @NQ-Sesch @NQ-Entropy

 

So an intersting discussion happene don Duscord where a player was locked, shot and killed while in warp.

 

It is my understanding that it shoudl not be possble to lock or shoot a player who is in warp

Several people claimed that it is, some claimed they have documentation from support saying as much, other say "well, you are told when entering PVP space you may be attacked"

 

I believe that this is not correct and should not be possible and thus, this is an exploit. It seems that NQ is both aware of this occuring and that they havenotacted on this which frankly makes no sense.

 

So, it would be nice to hear from anyone at NQ who actually knows what should or should lnot be possible and on fairly short notice as I know tha there is many who have the sameunderstanding as mylelf and if incorrect may be exposed to risk they do not expect.

 

A simple "This is indeed possible" or "This should not be possible and will be dealt with" wil lbe fine, simple, easy answer..

 

Looking forward to NQ taking this issue seriously and getting back to us quickly.

 

 

 

 

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Just to clarify person said attacker was warping and the attacked was warping while everyone is supposed to be immobilized . While moving at 3.5 SU a second I thought all command seats and gunner seats were unusable during warp . If this is fine with NQ I believe it will have bad impact on game  .Thank you for response in advance .

 

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It's an interesting mechanic and prepares well for the future of DU with PvP on all planets outside the alioth / madis / thades safe zone.

 

It is an easily contradicted mechanism:
- shield
- voxel
- get out of the warp to kill your attacker
- take another route

 

I just think it lacks a bit of balance, the damaged ship will need to warp to allow a real fight to begin.
Otherwise it will leave the ships with too powerful imortal shields.


There is a big generation of resources now with minning units, you have to be careful that it is not too easy to move them.

Anyway it's a very good surprise, I hadn't thought that the warp speed reduction was there to allow more combat. Bravo NQ continue in this direction. We are sorely lacking in mechanics like this making the game alive and interesting.

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This seems like a bug rather than an exploit, but I agree NQ should clarify whether this is intended game play.

 

It does not seem to be of great concern. I suspect it's hard for the the attacking ship to synchronize warp with the target adequately to be be warping within targeting range. And if they do, I doubt any arrangement of weapons on a single ship could take down a L shield during the time spent in warp on a single leg. If getting hit during warp knocks a ship out of warp. we may need to use atmo radar before warping to be sure no enemies are in targeting range.

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7 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

It's an interesting mechanic and prepares well for the future of DU with PvP on all planets outside the alioth / madis / thades safe zone.

 

I can see how from your perspective this may be good, but in my view it really is not. 

 

Warp is supposed to be safe and it should not be possibel to be locked and shot at, I agree that is the understanding and many have it. NQ needs to speak up if this is not correct or if this is in fact a bug being exploited.

 

In a balanced combat/PVP loop, there needs to be countermeasures other than "fighting back". NQ has talked abouit ECM and I expect them to bring that into the game before they remove the safezounes and introduce TW. There is plent of oprions in hat regards which will allow for non combatant players to mitigate the risks to the point it becomes acceptable to take:

 

Decoys, ECM to break lock, Radar jamming and Stealth are just a few options. I would not be a fan of  Cloaking in game. At the same time, withthese options I woudl expect NQ to bring in Warp interdiction as well. My fear here is that NQ doe snot have the ability to do all this without  some major work on the game code.

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6 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

This seems like a bug rather than an exploit, but I agree NQ should clarify whether this is intended game play.

 

It does not seem to be of great concern. I suspect it's hard for the the attacking ship to synchronize warp with the target adequately to be be warping within targeting range. And if they do, I doubt any arrangement of weapons on a single ship could take down a L shield during the time spent in warp on a single leg. If getting hit during warp knocks a ship out of warp. we may need to use atmo radar before warping to be sure no enemies are in targeting range.

You can’t knock a ship already in warp out….yet

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I can see how from your perspective this may be good, but in my view it really is not. 

 

Warp is supposed to be safe and it should not be possibel to be locked and shot at, I agree that is the understanding and many have it. NQ needs to speak up if this is not correct or if this is in fact a bug being exploited.

 

In a balanced combat/PVP loop, there needs to be countermeasures other than "fighting back". NQ has talked abouit ECM and I expect them to bring that into the game before they remove the safezounes and introduce TW. There is plent of oprions in hat regards which will allow for non combatant players to mitigate the risks to the point it becomes acceptable to take:

 

Decoys, ECM to break lock, Radar jamming and Stealth are just a few options. I would not be a fan of  Cloaking in game. At the same time, withthese options I woudl expect NQ to bring in Warp interdiction as well. My fear here is that NQ doe snot have the ability to do all this without  some major work on the game code.

I disagree with the warp point since it only protects you from collision to remove any risk of people netting up pipes etc.
 

However in regards to your pvp comments we are definitely on the same page. With lock and fire being hard locked in to the game we need choices, choices and more choices to make it fun! 

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So, I know nothing about PvP.  From what has been stated I assume the following.

1) Pirate ship has at lesat 2 crew and 1 is a gunner

2)  Pirate see's a ship is about to warp and they know its intended destination 

3)  They press the warp button within 1 second of the target pressing warp. 

4)  Whilst in warp and less than 2 su away, they target and kill the target ship

 

There are a few things here that make this happening without a glitch/bug extremely unlikely.  At least as far as I can see.

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While I can't post direct screenshots due to NQ policy and TOS, support has pretty much come back stating this is "at least unintended", possibly an exploit, being tracked and will be followed up on.

 

NQ seems to be well aware of this issue and is actively investigating.. How long that will take is anyone's guess, but the signals are good that this is something that wil be addressed sometime soon-ish

 

.. to be continued

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

 

 

While I can't post direct screenshots due to NQ policy and TOS, support has pretty much come back stating this is "at least unintended", possibly an exploit, being tracked and will be followed up on.

 

NQ seems to be well aware of this issue and is actively investigating.. How long that will take is anyone's guess, but the signals are good that this is something that wil be addressed sometime soon-ish

 

.. to be continued

 

Can't have that unintended gameplay around here.  I know JC said he wanted emergent gameplay but they gave JC the boot. You WILL calibrate your machines. You WILL pay your taxes.  This is the intended gameplay.

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On 1/2/2022 at 3:47 AM, blazemonger said:

Decoys, ECM to break lock, Radar jamming and Stealth are just a few options. I would not be a fan of  Cloaking in game. At the same time, withthese options I woudl expect NQ to bring in Warp interdiction as well. My fear here is that NQ doe snot have the ability to do all this without  some major work on the game code.

 

I'm a huge fan of other measures to break lock and / or defensive measures in general.  ECM makes the most sense, and I hope they implement it.  Make it a skilled trait, for effectiveness.    I agree that think warp interdiction is the way to go to break warp.

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20 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Hats off to NQ for quickly addressing this after getting back to work from the holidays..  Well done, clear and decisive reponse.

 

Better than some past replies, but personally I hate preventing bugs via "rules" -- if this game ever gets to release, they'll need to fix exploits a lot more promptly. 

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6 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

 

Better than some past replies, but personally I hate preventing bugs via "rules" -- if this game ever gets to release, they'll need to fix exploits a lot more promptly. 

 

Don't worry, it's easy to navigate. If it's not intended gameplay then it's a bug and possibly bannable.  Only intended gameplay is allowed.

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That's not true though, unintended behaviour can be beneficial and actually enhance gameplay, that would be what is actual emergent gamplay.

When the unintended behaviour creates a situation where it gives someplayer an unfair advantage is what is an exploit.

This is not about "preventing bugs" with rules, declaring exploits and making using them a bannable offense while you fix the underlying issue is pretty much standard practice. The fun bit is that NQ seems afraid to call this out for what it is and I have no idea why as their action here is perfectly fine and as I would expect.

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15 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Don't worry, it's easy to navigate. If it's not intended gameplay then it's a bug and possibly bannable.  Only intended gameplay is allowed.

As soon as a ship gets a lock on your ship the ship initiating the lock explodes.  Sounds like fair play, right.

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11 hours ago, blazemonger said:

That's not true though, unintended behaviour can be beneficial and actually enhance gameplay, that would be what is actual emergent gamplay.

When the unintended behaviour creates a situation where it gives someplayer an unfair advantage is what is an exploit.

This is not about "preventing bugs" with rules, declaring exploits and making using them a bannable offense while you fix the underlying issue is pretty much standard practice. The fun bit is that NQ seems afraid to call this out for what it is and I have no idea why as their action here is perfectly fine and as I would expect.

No bugs or exploits was used to match the warp’s, fact. That would of only been pure math and R&D by the players. 


As for being able to shoot in warp that simply would of been an oversight. This is probably not a bug in the code it’s simply the fact that NQ probably never coded against it or tested because they probably did not think it would be possible. 
 

Given the level of effort and cost put in by the attackers to achieve these feats in comparison to minimal effort required to defend against it, this NQ referee decision could of just as easily gone the other way. 
 


 

 

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An exploit does not have to originate from a bug. You can talk around the fact that this is a textbook exploit by its very definition al lyou want but that does not change a thing.


An exploit is any unintended behaviour from a game mechanic, be it a bug, an oversight or whatever, that gives a player an unfair advantage over another, in this case being able to lock and shoot someone in warp whil ethey shoudl not be able to. NQ may have optied to not call it out as such, but that does not change the fact that by the definition of the term,this is an exploit.
 

And I do not agree this could have gone either way. Warp is supposed to be safe and you should not be able to lock or shoot at anyone who is in warp. This does not mean to say it's not impressive that some were able to make that work, but the very fact they could is what definees it as an exploit. This is not a dirty word or a bad thing, it happens. And NQ took the correect action here an did so fairly quickly although it appeears they were well aware of this before it became "a thing" on DUscord.

 

Either way, it's done and will get fixed. So that pretty much ends this discussion.

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

This does not mean to say it's not impressive that some were able to make that work, but the very fact they could is what definees it as an exploit. This is not a dirty word or a bad thing, it happens. And NQ took the correect action here an did so fairly quickly although it appeears they were well aware of this before it became "a thing" on DUscord.

 

Either way, it's done and will get fixed. So that pretty much ends this discussion.


Keep in mind that if NQ took this same stance across the board in their decision making a very hefty % of ships out there from the mission runners to the hag-boards would be no longer allowed.
 

Could it of gone the other way? Yes it could of because NQ decision making seems to not just be based on definitions but impacts. 

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