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lucagrabacr

Game design logic, the vision of DU VS lazy gamers and players' freedom

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I understand why NQ doesn't want to;

 

  • Allow industry on dynamic cores - so bases / static cores have a unique use
  • Allow pilots of a ship to control their own guns - so it doesn't turn into a game where big ships are manned by single players
  • Simplify the crafting process - so people specialize in what they're good at

 

And before anyone say how I'm just bad at the game, I can make ships / big ships / w/e really fast with industry or market, and I do combat, so no this is not a "game hard pls fix for me" kind of thread I really just want to see DU take off like how it should on paper so know that my rant comes with good intent and is not in a bad faith

 

I just feel like, and I know I'm not alone in this, that DU ask quite a lot from people in term of cost and time compared to what they get out of it.

 

Yes, being a part of a single shard universe and have your mark in it is fulfilling, but that's not enough compared to what we have to invest in DU, I know it's in Beta but still can we not use the "but it's still in Beta" argument here please for the sake of not saying something that's obvious, but of course feel free to do it if you feel like you have to just saying it's kinda pointless.

 

Don't you guys think if DU's formula is perfect (it's great, but not perfect) that it would already CRUSH all space sandbox / combat games out there? (like SE, Empyrion, w/e) but it hasn't. Like seriously, on paper all of those people would have flooded DU already, "oh but it's a different kind of game" like dude seriously it's a space game with planets where you can build stuff it's not really that different unless you make it different for some reason, or too restrictive.

 

Why can't we have industry on dynamic cores, at reduced speed, which I think would be a good compromise, and requiring the ship to stop (as another streamer suggested) so we can have a playstyle where people can have mobile bases? Which is fun, which is the reason why those aforementioned games do that, you know, because it's fun, doesn't make that much sense in term of ship/base usefulness balance, but it's fun.

 

Why do we need gunners, like seriously I run a community too so it's relatively easy for me to find gunners compared to most people but at some point people would get bored of being a gunner, like what, I can pay them millions of quantas maybe and I don't think it would be good enough still because even they wouldn't feel like they need that much money if they know they would need to find gunners to make a big combat ship work, it's not like they can trade the quantas with fiat currencies either, which JC really should do or facilitate directly through the DU website with tax or w/e if he really wants to make DU a "metaverse", because actual metaverse out there do that for a good reason.

 

Even in a hardcore game like EVE you don't need gunners to control your massive ship and you know that's kinda what most people want, they just want to be able to pilot big ships themselves, it's kinda far fetched to think gunnery gameplay appeals to a lot of people, it makes the game too restrictive for most people to engage in it and it's not like it's realistic either, it's the year 2900s where we have anti-gravity technology why can't we have automated turrets? Game balance as a reason is pointless if that balance is not fun.

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2 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

I just feel like, and I know I'm not alone in this, that DU ask quite a lot from people in term of cost and time compared to what they get out of it.

I think DU is very cheap as far as the cost of access, for me, if a game plays a around $1/hour I'd say it is worth it and in that regard DU is well inside that. Time wise, a game like DU wil always ask for a considerable investment and if that is not what you want then the game may not be for you. Like EVE, DU is very much a game which will eventually give back to you depending on the effort and time you put in. It's not there yet but I believe that is where the game will end up going.

 

2 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

Don't you guys think if DU's formula is perfect (it's great, but not perfect) that it would already CRUSH all space sandbox / combat games out there? (like SE, Empyrion, w/e) but it hasn't.

No, DU is unique in it's own way but it misses so much of the content and options a game like Space Engineers offers that it would never be able to replace it for the vast majority of players coming from that game. The co-op aspect and "short term" episodic opportunities SE has, as well as the camera support and physics amongst others would never be a part of DU and that's fine.

 

2 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

Why can't we have industry on dynamic cores,

 

Initially I was quite strongly opposed to the "industry on static only" decision made by NQ but mostly because they explained and justified the choice in a way which made absolutely no sense at all. Once we actually got our hands on industry though, I'd say that regardless of the way NQ presented their design choices, it makes sense for Industry to be bound to static cores. That said though, I have always suggested there should be an intermediate elements between the nano pack and industry which would:

 

  • Be able to be placed on dynamic cores
  • Be more versatile and a bit faster than nano pack but not equal full industry
  • Be able to craft T1 and T2 elements up to size M for all elements allowing it to be an emergency crafter to replace destroyed elements and get you home
  • Be able to craft T1 and T2 components up to size L to feed into a repair system to fix damaged elements
  • Be able to craft Space Fuel

 

This "mobile Nanocrafter" could have the same talents as the nano pack has with regards to crafting times and maybe an efficiency talent to reduce input material requirements

 

 

 

2 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

 

Why do we need gunners, like seriously

Even in a hardcore game like EVE you don't need gunners to control your massive ship and you know that's kinda what most people want, they just want to be able to pilot big ships themselves,

To me, the big difference is that in EVE, the weapons on your ship really act as a single entity, splitting weapons to separate targets is hardly ever done. From what I have seen and understand, in DU each weapon mounted is really a separate entity and so having it be manned individually makes more sense. I guess it's also a design choice. Lore wise, EVE ships actually have (massive) crew complements which are managed by you, it is not the case you fly a ship alone (source)..

 

Personally I equate a single ship in DU more like a small gang in EVE in how it operates, but it's really too early to tell and I do expect a lot wil change in the course of the next year.

 

2 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

 

 

it's kinda far fetched to think gunnery gameplay appeals to a lot of people, it makes the game too restrictive for most people to engage in it and it's not like it's realistic either, it's the year 2900s where we have anti-gravity technology why can't we have automated turrets? Game balance as a reason is pointless if that balance is not fun.

 

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4 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

it's the year 2900s

 

Actually it's the year 9000s.

And you still have to manually dig ... to get ore ... fun times.

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We need gunners to force group dependent gameplay, and to me, this is a good thing. People will solo every time if the mechanics don't greatly favor team cooperation. 

 

It also allows for the dynamic of multiple gunners potentially firing at different targets when it comes to large ship battles, which I find appealing. 

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14 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:

We need gunners to force group dependent gameplay, and to me, this is a good thing. People will solo every time if the mechanics don't greatly favor team cooperation. 

 

It also allows for the dynamic of multiple gunners potentially firing at different targets when it comes to large ship battles, which I find appealing. 

nope. ppl dont want to be gunnerslaves. try to force them into being a slave will result to even less pvp players. wake up and let ppl fly their ships and shoot at the same time like in 99% of all spacecombat games.

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Luca...do you even PVP?  Why gunners?  Get out of here, the team work element of combat is great. Stop trying to make an MMO a solo player game.  Using sweeping generalizations such as "Everyone wants to pilot big ships." to fit your narrative isn't appropriate. 

I would wager people want to be able to have PvP be accessible.  Anyone who says flying a ship in combat is something that is easy and that everyone should be able to solo is outta their minds.  Play the dang game.  Having a crew to work a ship isn't about who "fly's it" its about the goal.  Of enabling each other to beat the snot out of the other team.  It is exact reasons like that that NQ should ignore these types of suggestions and move forward with their design vision.

Make PvP more accessible.

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9 hours ago, Niemand said:

nope. ppl dont want to be gunnerslaves. try to force them into being a slave will result to even less pvp players. wake up and let ppl fly their ships and shoot at the same time like in 99% of all spacecombat games.

Then they (and you) can go play one of those other games. What we won't have here are large core ships handled by a single person. You need a pilot, you need gunners, and you should have a damage control team. Wake up and realize that not every game has to keep the status quo. 

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4 hours ago, EntropicDuck said:

Luca...do you even PVP?  Why gunners?  Get out of here, the team work element of combat is great. Stop trying to make an MMO a solo player game.  Using sweeping generalizations such as "Everyone wants to pilot big ships." to fit your narrative isn't appropriate. 

I would wager people want to be able to have PvP be accessible.  Anyone who says flying a ship in combat is something that is easy and that everyone should be able to solo is outta their minds.  Play the dang game.  Having a crew to work a ship isn't about who "fly's it" its about the goal.  Of enabling each other to beat the snot out of the other team.  It is exact reasons like that that NQ should ignore these types of suggestions and move forward with their design vision.

Make PvP more accessible.

Couldn't have said it better myself. If you want solo play, this isn't the game for it. Fortunately you have plenty of others to choose from, so don't try to kill what makes this one unique.

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1 hour ago, Musclethorpe said:

Then they (and you) can go play one of those other games. What we won't have here are large core ships handled by a single person. You need a pilot, you need gunners, and you should have a damage control team. Wake up and realize that not every game has to keep the status quo. 

yes they can and they will and you will be in a dead game without any targets to shoot. braindead? hmm? i agree for the L ships but not for the smaller ones.

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Enjoy this days while they last. This will be the easiest DU version you will ever play. 1 Year from now at release you will look at this version and you will compare it with a primitive tier :)

 

 

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6 hours ago, Niemand said:

yes they can and they will and you will be in a dead game without any targets to shoot. braindead? hmm? i agree for the L ships but not for the smaller ones.

Oh no, a doomsayer! I played Elite: Dangerous for 6 years and every week people said, and still say, the game was/is going to die for this reason or that. Guess what, it's still there despite its massive flaws, with plenty of people to shoot. This game will be fine because it fulfills a niche people like me need.

 

As far as ship cores, XS (as in fighters) don't need gunners. With talents you can mount 3 XS weapons and a radar, which is plenty. My S shuttlecraft is rather big. I don't need a gunner, as I still have XS weapons mounted, but I also have a couple M size so I have a bit more firepower. My gunner is optional. M core ships are quite large, and there is no way a ship that size shouldn't need a crew.

 

Even the Milennium Falcon needed two gunners, a pilot, and a repair tech when in battle, and that was roughly an S core ship. This is the style of sci-fi they are going for when it comes to ship operation. 

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50 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

Guess what, it's still there despite its massive flaws

Elite: Dangerous is still there because it offers a lot of different activities and almost all of them can be done in solo or group play without the threat of gankers in open. Especially exploration. It's fun to just go off into the expanse of the galaxy and see what's out there, spending months on a journey at a time.

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Good ideas imho.

 

The industry on ships, even if runs on like 1/10 speed will still be cool but useless and will not compete with regular factories. (Adding a lot of factories will make it very heavy to move anyway)

Gunners, that's a really bad thing to have. I can already build a ship bigger than I have gunners for + what do gunners do ? Sit and wait 99% of the time ?

 

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15 minutes ago, XKentX said:

what do gunners do ? Sit and wait 99% of the time ?

This is why surrogates should be able to train skills and gunner ships. Imagine if you had a surrogate pod on your ship with access to gunner stations, and your buddies could be off doing their own thing with easy access to a VR station, and when you find a target, your buddies could just hop in the VR station and surrogate spawn on your ship and gunner your stuff. Or you could open it to public asking for gunners (why not? options for emergent gameplay are good)

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24 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

This is why surrogates should be able to train skills and gunner ships. Imagine if you had a surrogate pod on your ship with access to gunner stations, and your buddies could be off doing their own thing with easy access to a VR station, and when you find a target, your buddies could just hop in the VR station and surrogate spawn on your ship and gunner your stuff. Or you could open it to public asking for gunners (why not? options for emergent gameplay are good)

Yea at least that.

I don't get how NQ planned it. What should gunners do when you fly around searching for targets. They just get bored and never come again.

 

Edit: I don't even care about paying some kind alternative to EVE "second character training queue" that would train my surrogate thingy etc. DU needs the money and I don't care spending some as long as I enjoy at least some of it and see future.

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I think this Game stuck in a way that, “it offers a lot of possibilities” But the Player base have not the “right” tools to get it done.

 

[Allow industry on dynamic cores - so bases / static cores have a unique use.]

Yes, for “Large” ships. In a Limited way. (Basic Ore Processing or fuel)

But I think the Problem ends with, the Planets would be much faster be “dig out of Ore”.

 

 

[Allow pilots of a ship to control their own guns - so it doesn't turn into a game where big ships are manned by single players.]

I think your thoughts here are, “Not to add the possibility to do everything alone, in a “Large” ship.”

Everyone can Build Large ships, but currently it ends up in Big Empty Cargo haulers. (Boring)

Or Borg Cubes.

 

I want Dogfights, but this not working with this kind of Targeting/Fire System. So, Combat here ends with the one with Biggest Gun Wins on Distance. Its more like a Sniping game.

 

 

[Simplify the crafting process - so people specialize in what they're good at.]

I think the whole crafting/Talent process is Pointless and just Time Stretching.

There should be more specific ways to do something. But there is no Content for this at all.

 

This are just my opinion. 😉

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4 hours ago, Emptiness said:

Elite: Dangerous is still there because it offers a lot of different activities and almost all of them can be done in solo or group play without the threat of gankers in open. Especially exploration. It's fun to just go off into the expanse of the galaxy and see what's out there, spending months on a journey at a time.

This isn't that game, thankfully. Feel free to see yourself out of this "dying game".

 

I do, however, agree with your surrogate pod idea. I have one on my ship, as crew members can do everything else on the ship (repair, etc) except use control units.

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47 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

This isn't that game, thankfully. Feel free to see yourself out of this "dying game".

Would you please elaborate on what, exactly, you meant by those statements? They could be taken any number of ways and I'd rather not misinterpret this.

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1 hour ago, Musclethorpe said:

This isn't that game, thankfully.

The fact that, though it does have a safe zone, there is no "solo play" mode.

 

1 hour ago, Musclethorpe said:

Feel free to see yourself out of this "dying game".

If you are so convinced that this game is a sinking ship, you can leave at any time. The design philosophy will not be changing.

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10 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

The design philosophy will not be changing.

And yet they have changed things and may change more in the future. Didn't they originally say that the Alioth-Madis-Thades safe area would be removed? And then there's the JC interview where he says it's staying.

 

I think there's some other things they've changed from the initial promises, too.

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2 hours ago, Emptiness said:

And yet they have changed things and may change more in the future. Didn't they originally say that the Alioth-Madis-Thades safe area would be removed? And then there's the JC interview where he says it's staying.

 

I think there's some other things they've changed from the initial promises, too.

There was always going to be a safe zone (Sanc), now it's just bigger. There was no change to the core philosophy. 

 

You will not see a removal of a need for a crew to man ships. This is one of the few aspects that sets this game apart from the rest.

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3 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

You will not see a removal of a need for a crew to man ships. This is one of the few aspects that sets this game apart from the rest.

I never argued against that. :-) You did notice my surrogate suggestion up there, right? It would still be 1 player equivalent per gunner position, but the gunners wouldn't need to dedicate x time to long potential waits. And it would have a downside of fewer actual players on the ship for repairs and such.

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As you may recall, I stated that your surrogate idea was a good one. It could also be coupled with a surrogate talent, that would allow you to participate with a percentage of your actual talents.

 

There is no need to limit this to gunners. As it stands now you can have a surrogate crew staff your ship for everything but pilot/gunner. Being able to fill out a crew quickly in such a manner is still in the spirit of group play, just made more convenient. 

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