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JohnnyTazer

Leaving safe zone is consenting to PvP.

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

Im not talking about conventional piracy. 

Im talking about griefing. 

 

Lets say you see a guy with a space speeder, just some S engines straped together. No container. 

Do you really need to go kill him? 

If yes, do you realy need to camp his core for hours hoping for his return ao you can kill him again? 

You can't do any of what you explained in the safe zone.  So your little made up story doesn't mean anything.  

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

Im not talking about conventional piracy. 

Im talking about griefing. 

 

Lets say you see a guy with a space speeder, just some S engines straped together. No container. 

Do you really need to go kill him? 

If yes, do you realy need to camp his core for hours hoping for his return ao you can kill him again? 

You can get T4 in safe space. If you're in PvP space you know what you're getting into.

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38 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

To me Griefing is to cause Grief. And Grief is a overwhelming feeling of loss and sorrow. 

When this action was not related to a economical or tactical advantage then is morally wrong. 

To answer this pretty simply.

The person who killed you gained an economical advantage.  This is called piracy, not griefing.  And unless you are aware of the larger picture,  you don't know the tactical advantage.

 

 

 

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Attempting to extrapolate any kind of concrete truths about a person's morality from how they play a videogame is so incredibly sophomoric. It's the rough equivalent of someone trying to diagnose mental illness after taking one psychology class. No reasonable person would take an argument like that seriously.

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3 minutes ago, LouHodo said:

To answer this pretty simply.

The person who killed you gained an economical advantage.  This is called piracy, not griefing.  And unless you are aware of the larger picture,  you don't know the tactical advantage.

 

 

 

When its a xs noob speeder the fuel and the ammo alone was more expensive then the gain. 

Unless you count the "terror" caused as a strategic advantage. 

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Kinda funny since you brought up votes when it was asked about griefing, and everyone but you in this thread is getting positive likes and reactions in this thread. You are the one who isn't.  Speaks volumes.  And since you took so much stock in the voting about griefing, then it would mean that you do here to. 

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58 minutes ago, LouHodo said:

Griefing is utilizing a bug or exploit to prevent someone from playing or enjoying the game.  

Yup. This is it right here. I am reminded of people in Elite Dangerous, back in the day, parking their Anaconda in the entrance to stations so no one could enter\leave. Classic griefing right there.

 

Wikipedia has the right of it:  screenshot-79.png

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1 minute ago, HairballHacker said:

Yup. This is it right here. I am reminded of people in Elite Dangerous, back in the day, parking their Anaconda in the entrance to stations so no one could enter\leave. Classic griefing right there.

 

Wikipedia has the right of it:  screenshot-79.png

So its not griefing if they are in the pvp zone, and using their ships and guns as intended, to shoot someone.  Interesting.

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26 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Im not talking about conventional piracy. 

Im talking about griefing.

Are you saying losing your stuff to piracy does not cause "overwhelming feeling of loss and sorrow"? Because that was YOUR definition of griefing.

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"In open world PVP, there are no griefers"

 

Pretty much defines an inability to understand what griefing is as it has _nothing_ to do with whether a game has open world PVP or not. Frankly and IMO it is an insult to those who wish to engage in PVP when you pretty much equal the actions of griefers to PVP. Taking peoples constructs into space by piggy backing them on a larger core once you claimed a tile they were parked on and then destroying the core is not griefing, it is exploiting a badly implemented game mechanic and NQ not being able to make up their mind and come out with their position on this is really not great but it's an exploit, not griefing nor PVP (it's pretty much a single player or co-op action at best).

 

As it stands, space PVP in DU is really not a thing, the mechanics are one sided and there is no form of counters of any kind (and "fit guns/bring friends" is an excuse, not an argument or a counter). While NQ has said that (as one would expect) further iterations will bring in countermeasures and more, overall they have allowed this argument to spin out of control by mostly keeping silent as they do and not in any way setting real expectations (or tempering them) by they usual non communicative attitude.

 

I am actually not too concerned about planet side PVP as from what NQ has actually said it appears that Territory warfare will be (very) costly, will require a serious amount of preparation, strategizing,  resources and manpower and will not be something smaller groups will be able to engage in at random.

 

For me, as long as NQ steps up their communication and tells us what their plans are (if they actually know yet) regarding space bound PVP and possible PVP in atmosphere with regards to functional, viable and balanced counters, I will be happy. But yes, I think NQ has actually not made up their minds about this, so forget about being able to actually start implementing these (and so it will be many months before we actually hear anything). I do not really expect any movement on this for at least another 6-8 months for the aforementioned reasons and the fact NQ is still busy fighting backend fires and will be for some time still.

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1 minute ago, blazemonger said:

"In open world PVP, there are no griefers"

 

Pretty much defines an inability to understand what griefing is as it has _nothing_ to do with whether a game has open world PVP or not. Frankly and IMO it is an insult to those who wish to engage in PVP when you pretty much equal the actions of griefers to PVP. Taking peoples constructs into space by piggy backing them on a larger core once you claimed a tile they were parked on and then destroying the core is not griefing, it is exploiting a badly implemented game mechanic and NQ not being able to make up their mind and come out with their position on this is really not great but it's an exploit, not griefing nor PVP (it's pretty much a single player or co-op action at best).

 

As it stands, space PVP in DU is really not a thing, the mechanics are one sided and there is no form of counters of any kind (and "fit guns/bring friends" is an excuse, not an argument or a counter). While NQ has said that (as one would expect) further iterations will bring in countermeasures and more, overall they have allowed this argument to spin out of control by mostly keeping silent as they do and not in any way setting real expectations (or tempering them) by they usual non communicative attitude.

 

I am actually not too concerned about planet side PVP as from what NQ has actually said it appears that Territory warfare will be (very) costly, will require a serious amount of preparation, strategizing,  resources and manpower and will not be something smaller groups will be able to engage in at random.

 

For me, as long as NQ steps up their communication and tells us what their plans are (if they actually know yet) regarding space bound PVP and possible PVP in atmosphere with regards to functional, viable and balanced counters, I will be happy. But yes, I think NQ has actually not made up their minds about this, so forget about being able to actually start implementing these (and so it will be many months before we actually hear anything). I do not really expect any movement on this for at least another 6-8 months for the aforementioned reasons and the fact NQ is still busy fighting backend fires and will be for some time still.

No one is talking about taking someones ship from a safe zone to pvp zone.  NQ im sure is going to clarify that. But IF YOU LEAVE YOUR SHIP ON AN UNCLAIMED TILE NOT IN THE SAFE ZONE....then well you can probably guess what might happen.  We are talking about non-safe zone issues.  

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Absolutely, if you park in an unclaimed area outside safezone, anything can happen. There is no argument there. 

I used the current exploit as an example as many have used the "it's PVP boiz" argument which really is entirely out of bound here. It's however not griefing either. it's just an exploit.

 

Bottom line, IMO saying "In open world PVP, there are no griefers" just means you either do not know the difference between the two or are just trying to start an argument by making a nonsensical claim.

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33 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

When its a xs noob speeder the fuel and the ammo alone was more expensive then the gain. 

Unless you count the "terror" caused as a strategic advantage. 

How is it terror?  Stop. Just stop.

 

It is not terror, it is not griefing, it is not harassment.  It is PK, PVP, RED players.  Nothing more nothing less.  If you are terrorized by this then perhaps you should not be playing online games with a pvp element to it. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Absolutely, if you park in an unclaimed area outside safezone, anything can happen. There is no argument there. 

I used the current exploit as an example as many have used the "it's PVP boiz" argument which really is entirely out of bound here. It's however not griefing either. it's just an exploit.

 

Bottom line, IMO saying "In open world PVP, there are no griefers" just means you either do not know the difference between the two or are just trying to start an argument by making a nonsensical claim.

Yes but you are saying exploit. But regardless this discussion wasn't about any exploits in the safe zone, regardless of what others have said.  But in the "pvp zone" there is no griefing.  If there are exploits report them and NQ can fix them.  I don't see exploiting as the same as griefing. But griefing anyway is a pretty vague term, and not a good one. I see it similar to the word Toxic. Its something that is over used and can be a very broad term to use in many situations to bend it toward what you want.

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51 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Im not talking about conventional piracy. 

Im talking about griefing. 

 

Lets say you see a guy with a space speeder, just some S engines straped together. No container. 

Do you really need to go kill him? 

If yes, do you realy need to camp his core for hours hoping for his return ao you can kill him again? 

There is no real easy way to tell if a ship has a container on it.  Sure he could take time to try and find it on the periscope of the gunners chair... But if you have ever used that thing you will know that is an exercise in futility.

 

As for camping the core.... If it wasnt worth anything then why go back for it?  Odds are they were trying to assess if it was worth looting or salvaging.   

 

This again comes down to value... What is worth nothing to you, maybe worth something to someone else. 

 

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7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Absolutely, if you park in an unclaimed area outside safezone, anything can happen. There is no argument there. 

I used the current exploit as an example as many have used the "it's PVP boiz" argument which really is entirely out of bound here. It's however not griefing either. it's just an exploit.

 

Bottom line, IMO saying "In open world PVP, there are no griefers" just means you either do not know the difference between the two or are just trying to start an argument by making a nonsensical claim.

Further more, the word is exploit in itself can be a bad term to use.  In poker, we use the term exploit all the time.  We exploit a players tendencies to gain a statistical advantage to win their money.  Those are the actual rules of the game.  And exploit can just mean to gain an advantage.  But its been geared toward meaning "unfair" advantage.   If i train pvp skills, and my opponent does not.  I could be said to exploiting him, because i chose to take actions that gave me and advantage, and he did not.  It comes down to what NQ decides is acceptable and unacceptable in the pvp zone.  

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1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

 In poker, we use the term exploit all the time.  We exploit a players tendencies to gain a statistical advantage to win their money.

An exploit in poker would be to use a reflective surface allowing you to see a players cards instead of telling the dealer of the presence of the ability to do so for the card room to fix that. Using an opponent's weakness or tendencies is not an exploit, it is a (good) strategy and/or ability.

 

But, however interesting to discuss, we're getting "somewhat" off topic here ;)

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

An exploit in poker would be to use a reflective surface allowing you to see a players cards instead of telling the dealer of the presence of the ability to do so for the card room to fix that. Using an opponent's weakness or tendencies is not an exploit, it is a (good) strategy and/or ability.

 

But, however interesting to discuss, we're getting "somewhat" off topic here ;)

Yes, but have you played poker?  The word "exploit" is used ALL THE TIME and not in the way you just described.  AT ALL.  People change the meaning of words to fit circumstances.  If you used exploit in that way as you described you would get blank stares at the poker table.  What you described is called "cheating" in poker.

 

 

This is a very well known online player.  And raise your edge is well known in the poker community.  This is how exploit is used within the poker community.

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I don't understand why is this even a topic...

PvP space is a space where killing player is possible and actually should happen.... If you enter willingly - you face consequences. If you decide to enter again - you can die again. If you enter 10 times in a row, you can die 10 times in a row. Doesn't matter if this will be same player ganking a spot or 10 different players. Doesn't matter what the balance is, how disproportional forces are, is going to pvp zone even necessary, etc. All of that is beside the point. Whoever is in the pvp zone signed in blood and tears contract to be allowed to be killed and kill by solo action of being there.

To be brutally honest - in this game if you can't run or fight, you are nothing more but flying paycheck waiting to be cashed in. if you are dying over and over again at the same spot, you are minimal effort, probably lucrative (and dumb) paycheck. End of story. 

For the records, all that "doesn't matter" has an exception - exploits - those do matter, should never be used in practice and be dealt with by NQ asap.

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