discussion Let's talk XS Core Death Cubes...

[Tsezear]

At this point, many of us realize the dangers of XS core sniper ships. For those that don't know, these are XS ships + Gunner seats that are typically equipped with something like a Space Radar L and Large Railgun L. I want to talk about the math and logic behind a scenario associated with these little bastards.

 

Let's start with the math given a scenario involving an XS core sniper aggressor (A Team) against a fleet comprised of an M core freighter and and two XS core sniper escorts (B Team).

 

A Team can lock and fire at the B Team freighter at a range of 160km. BOOM! That's a lot of damage! Of course, B Team also has XS core snipers as an escort so surely this battle is about to turn... right?

 

Not quite. The B Team sniper could be an exact replica of the A Team sniper but unfortunately, B Team can only target the aggressor's XS core at a mere 40km. That's a big 'ole 120km difference between defensive and offensive distances (don't flame me on this comment just yet, read the next lines).

 

While traveling in the big void of space this isn't too much of an issue. Logically, you could just have the escorts run 120km in front of and behind the freighter. The snipers could see and presumably handle anything coming up in front or approaching quickly from behind during tavel acceleration to 30km/h. But what about when there are aggressors spotted during the approach to the destination? Does the lead escort suffice in managing a flanking situation at the destination?

 

The deceleration distance of freighters (even with a bunch of retro brakes) is measured in SU given the time it takes to slow down. We're talking several hundred km when our Space Radar L can only see out 400km. Is it too late at that point for the freighter to attempt an abort? Does the freighter just smash that WARP NOW button to zoom off to safely and say, "Several million in warp cells well-spent!" Does the freighter pilot just cover every spare inch of the ship with Retro-Rocket Brakes like he's making a pepperoni pizza at home? is this a moot point and none of this matters?

Hell if I know. Discuss. 

 

[Tenryuta]

O_O if you can lock an xs sniper onto a pirate flagship(voxels or parts preventing the sniper from detaching)... itd be quite funny to see.

the freighter should have bigger brakes and adjusters for dodging, 4x the engines in all directions and... less cargo

[Luukullus]

3 hours ago, Tsezear said:

At this point, many of us realize the dangers of XS core sniper ships. For those that don't know, these are XS ships + Gunner seats that are typically equipped with something like a Space Radar L and Large Railgun L. I want to talk about the math and logic behind a scenario associated with these little bastards.

 

Let's start with the math given a scenario involving an XS core sniper aggressor (A Team) against a fleet comprised of an M core freighter and and two XS core sniper escorts (B Team).

 

A Team can lock and fire at the B Team freighter at a range of 160km. BOOM! That's a lot of damage! Of course, B Team also has XS core snipers as an escort so surely this battle is about to turn... right?

 

Not quite. The B Team sniper could be an exact replica of the A Team sniper but unfortunately, B Team can only target the aggressor's XS core at a mere 40km. That's a big 'ole 120km difference between defensive and offensive distances (don't flame me on this comment just yet, read the next lines).

 

While traveling in the big void of space this isn't too much of an issue. Logically, you could just have the escorts run 120km in front of and behind the freighter. The snipers could see and presumably handle anything coming up in front or approaching quickly from behind during tavel acceleration to 30km/h. But what about when there are aggressors spotted during the approach to the destination? Does the lead escort suffice in managing a flanking situation at the destination?

 

The deceleration distance of freighters (even with a bunch of retro brakes) is measured in SU given the time it takes to slow down. We're talking several hundred km when our Space Radar L can only see out 400km. Is it too late at that point for the freighter to attempt an abort? Does the freighter just smash that WARP NOW button to zoom off to safely and say, "Several million in warp cells well-spent!" Does the freighter pilot just cover every spare inch of the ship with Retro-Rocket Brakes like he's making a pepperoni pizza at home? is this a moot point and none of this matters?

Hell if I know. Discuss. 

 

As a frighter i hope i will never get into this situation -.-

[Tsezear]

6 hours ago, Luukullus said:

As a frighter i hope i will never get into this situation -.-

If you leave the safe zone you absolutely will encounter flanking pirates at destinations at some point. Under the current system, those XS cores have a severe tactical advantage over larger ships and I honestly don't know what the fix would be or whether there even should be one. I want some community input and suggestions to see where others land on this topic.

[Gerdieman]

I think the say that would prevent this kind of abuse of XS cores with Large Radars and guns would be to restrict the size of the weapons and radars that can be placed on cores. So for example limiting it to the same size or smaller would greatly help. 

XS Core - XS Weapons/Radar

S Core - XS/S Weapons/Radar

M Core - XS/S/M Weapons/Radar

L Core - XS/S/M/L Weapons/Radar

[Haunty]

1 hour ago, Gerdieman said:

I think the say that would prevent this kind of abuse of XS cores with Large Radars and guns would be to restrict the size of the weapons and radars that can be placed on cores.

I was thinking of this too, would probably be the easiest and quickest way, even if a bit arbitrary. But all the existing ships out there would have to be invalidated somehow

[Tsezear]

12 minutes ago, Haunty said:

I was thinking of this too, would probably be the easiest and quickest way, even if a bit arbitrary. But all the existing ships out there would have to be invalidated somehow

I believe power requirements are coming into the game soon and that may play a role in what kind of bandwidth a core has available to equip elements. Maybe that will change this meta. 

[Emptiness]

What if targetable range was determined by highest tier of elements on a target ship? L gun+radar on an XS core? Targetable at L range. M gun / L radar on that XS core? Targetable at L range. S gun and M radar? Targetable at M range. Etc. Non-combat XS core ship with L engines? Targetable at L range.

 

[Anomaly]

I like the idea of gun size being linked to core size.

 

Another idea that could be implemented with that one or by itself is to have core size be only one part of what determines how easy a ship is to lock.   The size of a ship's radar array could be a big factor.  The weight of the ship could be another. 

[Tsezear]

2 hours ago, Emptiness said:

What if targetable range was determined by highest tier of elements on a target ship? L gun+radar on an XS core? Targetable at L range. M gun / L radar on that XS core? Targetable at L range. S gun and M radar? Targetable at M range. Etc. Non-combat XS core ship with L engines? Targetable at L range.

 

Not a bad idea. That would certainly lead to some interesting freighter designs in pursuit of smallness!

I'd love to see some NQ feedback on this topic.

[Emptiness]

1 minute ago, Tsezear said:

Not a bad idea. That would certainly lead to some interesting freighter designs in pursuit of smallness!

I'd love to see some NQ feedback on this topic.

It could also lead to multi crew dynamic ship reconfiguration... slap on a couple L thrusters, use em to change a vector, then remove before a lock could be established. Or add them for an acceleration burn and remove at speed to present a smaller target.

[jmorrison51]

I would like to see some type of stealth. Say you have a small stealth unit on your ship then the enemy detection range on your ship is reduced by 1 core size. I.E. you have a medium core with a small stealth unit makes you have the same detection range of a small core. Or you have a large core with a medium stealth unit that also makes your detection range, as in the enemy detecting you, the same as a small core.

Once they implement power in the game I believe a lot of this will be balanced. Enjoy the meta while you can.

[Tsezear]

8 hours ago, jmorrison51 said:

I would like to see some type of stealth. Say you have a small stealth unit on your ship then the enemy detection range on your ship is reduced by 1 core size. I.E. you have a medium core with a small stealth unit makes you have the same detection range of a small core. Or you have a large core with a medium stealth unit that also makes your detection range, as in the enemy detecting you, the same as a small core.

Once they implement power in the game I believe a lot of this will be balanced. Enjoy the meta while you can.

While I think this could be cool once power comes in it certainly would be problematic under the current system. Should be interesting watching this develop.

[Dodgin]

i posted my suggestion for this here: 

 

this way it doesn't have to be a death *cube*, but it could be a death *lance* or *potato*

[Tsezear]

11 minutes ago, Dodgin said:

i posted my suggestion for this here: 

 

this way it doesn't have to be a death *cube*, but it could be a death *lance* or *potato*

XS Death by any other name.

[Dodgin]

Just now, Tsezear said:

XS Death by any other name.

The meta is punch as hard as you can with as little as you need. Risk v Reward will always demand this. I think the L radar reach on xs is absolutely silly though. Currently, M+ are just loot pinatas 

[Tsezear]

Lots of good ideas here.

 

Personally, I like that pretty much any module can be installed on any core size, but I would like to see restrictions on capacity. The ability to equip either a large gun or large radar on an XS core sounds great but I don't think it should be able to fit both. I like the idea of long-range scout ships (XS with large radar) but the capacity cost should limit other options that are then available.

 

I think that all of this could be managed via the upcoming power system but that's not due to be out until release sometime in 2021. Without imposing some sort of placeholder system in the interim I think XS snipers are here to stay as the gold standard.

[Tenryuta]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:00 PM, Dodgin said:

The meta is punch as hard as you can with as little as you need. Risk v Reward will always demand this. I think the L radar reach on xs is absolutely silly though. Currently, M+ are just loot pinatas 

so i shouldnt make a 40 billion quanta ship with no guns?!?!?!!?(gold voxels, enough deco to break the arkship, and one xs cargo:P)

[BooseOG]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:20 PM, Gerdieman said:

XS Core - XS Weapons/Radar

S Core - XS/S Weapons/Radar

M Core - XS/S/M Weapons/Radar

L Core - XS/S/M/L Weapons/Radar

I don't  know why this isn't  the way it works

[Kezzle]

2 hours ago, BooseOG said:

I don't  know why this isn't  the way it works

Because it's a stupid arbitrary limitation. Arbitrary limitations like this should always be avoided where possible by using natural outcomes of the physics. You can fit an L Assembler in an XS core, and it works; why suddenly can't you fit a L weapon? If NQ don't want larger elements to work in smaller cores, they'll make the elements themselves too big to fit in the core. The problem isn't L things in XS cores, it's the numbers associated with them and the current limitations of the avionics suites. Band aiding the problem will do no good, storing up hurt for later.

 

Just accept that this current PvP system is a placeholder, and bear with it until the actual ship combat system is completed and revealed, because whatever is done with the current components of the system, it's not going to produce a satisfactory result. Changing the equations that the system uses would have much better impact without imposing jarring restrictions.

[JayleBreak]

31 minutes ago, Kezzle said:

Because it's a stupid arbitrary limitation.

It doesn't become arbitrary if it results from the size, mass, and power  that these weapons should/could have in correspondance to their damage potential.  What we have now is the equivalent of an 16in Naval guns on a speed boat (speaking about arbitrary).

 

[Aiwhisper]

Instead of core size limiting modules, I would love to see power added so that they would have to slap on a few large reactors or something to power those guns and radar to limit them. Example would be every size core puts out x amount of base power then you have to add power elements to give you even more.

[steelynx@gmail.com]

I'd like for weapons to have recoil... have it work like an adjustor firing. Make the torque proportional to the size. Would make placement important. Light ships with large guns would get spun like tops or slowed down  if the gun is firing straight forward. Heavy ships would better cope with recoil. You could try to mitigate it with adjustors or thrusters but then it would get harder to fit as many guns on the smaller frames.

[HellToupee]

On 9/21/2020 at 1:07 AM, JayleBreak said:

It doesn't become arbitrary if it results from the size, mass, and power  that these weapons should/could have in correspondance to their damage potential.  What we have now is the equivalent of an 16in Naval guns on a speed boat (speaking about arbitrary).

 

 

But you can still build a speed boat with a large core, core is an arbitrary limitation. 

 

They also did slap battleship guns are far smaller ships, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_(warship) the trade off was speed and armor