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Jayplaygame

Stealth, Fog of War, ability to hide Territory hex claim.

Stealth, fog of war elements  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see these features?

    • YES - add stealth, hideaway and fog of war elements.
      36
    • NO - do NOT add stealth, hideaway and fog of war elements.
      12


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Not quite sure if it's implemented or planning to be implemented. After a very lengthy conversation with 1 or 2 discord moderators on "duscussion", I was suggested to come here and make my case. I hope the developers read and see this naturally, as it is intended for them. I understand you have a big game to make, a lot of issues and players to address but please hear me out.

 

From what I hear and see, I'm already beginning to love the idea of your game. All the little things matter, and can make all the difference in the world, especially when it comes to a game.

Now, judging by the title you probably already know what I'd like. Stealth. More of a focus on hiding assets on planets, territory units or hex claims whatever they may be from detection other then visually seeing them with the naked eye from a short distance. My intent is to use the games freedom (hopefully) to build underground, while using the cover of a subterranean base and operation to remain hidden from detection or being sighted by potential hostiles. Please make this possible. There should be an option to decide whether you want to broadcast your position or not to other players, I myself, someone who isn't too keen on joining a large faction would like to be able to remain invisible in such a large universe. For example, I don't want a player to be pinged the exact location of that 1 hex I have claimed on a giant planet the second they enter orbit. Please support the players that want to lone-wolf it. Please, this is one of the key steps in doing so. I want other players to have to work for it, make an extremely lengthy and detailed survey of the planet like real life in which would take months to years to find me and my base if they really wanted to. You have to take that into consideration, it's not overpowered and it's not unfair. It's just reality. There's going to be thousands of other players. Why does one or a small group of them hiding matter? Why limit that for them or anyone?? Knowing where everything is at anyone time is a silly thing to have be the case. This is a unique request I'm sure, I just don't want to see the enemy from a million miles away, nor them me. I feel that takes the fun of surprise attacks, stealth or hiding away. The concept of stealth I'm proposing can ALSO be used for space stations, secret asteroid bases in asteroid fields (if you intend on having asteroid fields) as well as naturally underground bases like I originally suggested. If players want to be found, then there let that be their choice. There should be "beacon" objects that ping a title and a symbol of what belongs to what that is fully customization to the players specifications, or perhaps a radio signal with a pre recorded audio voice. Who knows.

 

Thank you, and please reply.

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In principle I have nothing against the ability to hide things, or put in dampening fields to hide the electro magnetic signature of electronics and machines. However I also think that doing so should have a penalty, for example when the dampening field is on then you cant trade in the nearby market, or communicate with people/machines outside of the field - after all you are trying to be stealthy and comms gives away your position.

 

Note: You already have the ability to build underground bases, so that ability is already there.

 

Secondly, to be really stealthy, you would not have a base force shield,  to do so would advertise the fact that you are there. If you have either the force field going you should be able to be seen from space when someone first enters orbit.

 

As far a beacon objects, nopes. If you set down a territory unit that identifies you as the owner of that land - think of it as a land deed, or mining rights deed etc. People will know you are there simply because they can quickly, electronically, look up who owns what from the 'planetary land register'. So to be truly stealthy you just dig a base without any territory unit - with all the risks that go with doing that......

 

Keep in mind that territory units generally will be to expensive for solo players to purchase, land ownership will generally be a group thing ;)

 

 

As far as PvP I believe there should be some form of anonymity and potential cloaking - but only up to the point that base sensors, and/or players see you - then your name bubble etc should be shown. (There are many threads on this subject - the search tool above is your friend ;)  )

 

So, for the most part, you can already do 80% of what you want in DU as it is ;)

 

 

Cheers

 

CoreVamore

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Jayplaygame said:

I want other players to have to work for it, make an extremely lengthy and detailed survey of the planet like real life in which would take months to years to find me and my base if they really wanted to.

Yeah, that's pretty bad gameplay mechanics right there. If they would do such a thing, everyone (including big Bad orgs) would abuse that system to just stay hidden. Only available to small orgs? Just split that huge org into smaller pieces via rdms and take full advantage of that stealth system. Just available to players without orgs? Why give them a huge advantage in a Dog eat dog world?

 

What they COULD do is a fine tuning with scanning mechanics. Like thermal scans or radar waves. Hide your Base well with a special voxel made out of antithermium. Then ppl would need to use other means to scan for your base. Or craft your ship out of antiradarium and ppl won't bei able to detect you via radar. Whatever the mechanic - you have to balance it. There should not be a 100% safe solution which would take others years to find you. Days? Maybe. 100%? No.

 

 

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Allow me to reiterate a bit. Everyone would have this ability, in real life if someone decided to put a bunker in the jungle of the amazon, it would be tough to find. Now scale that to a single planet in unexplored territory. There is a chance it would take a lifetime to discover such a thing, possibly more, assuming you have space travel, FTL, Stargates ect. My point is, months and years for this kind of thing are actually generous if you ask me. Of course it isn't going to be "ULTRA REALISTIC". But look at what the developers intend for space travel. Days to weeks to just the NEIGHBORING system using FTL travel. Look on the wiki. You can argue it might be shortened, but I doubt it. Imagine how long it will take to go say, 10 systems away from spawn. It will take months. Once again, it's not just flat out abusive. Large organizations will always be stronger then smaller ones, and of course players working on their own. I think it's only fair, depending on the size of your base, where you put it, whether you broadcast it or how big your territory should be a deciding factor in whether you're able to successfully hide.  None of this display HUD stuff where your ship discovers say, 90% of about everyone and everything on planet the second you enter orbit. This will help in balancing out some things.

 

REGARDING the land rights thing CoreVamore brought up, I know that you think it should be made public but I'm sorry, it really shouldn't be unless you decide. The reason is that the only way to prevent players building in your area is to claim it with say, a territory unit. If somebody comes along say a month after I've built my base underground, completely obscure from the surface and claims the unclaimed territory above my underground base, I can't really do anything now can I. At the same time I don't want it to outright broadcast my location. That's the problem. Obviously large organizations are going to have tremendous firepower versus say, a single person, right? So why not give the extra option to anyone to take advantage of a fog of war system instead of getting completely obliterated by someone simply because they're bigger and better and there's no fog of war elements. Now I have no idea how this would be done, I just want there to be some kind of difficulty in finding a subterranean base that's kind of MEANT to be hidden while ALSO owning the land, so you know, someone doesn't snatch it from me while I'm offline or doing other things. So you see, there's probably not going to be a way to remain hidden while at the same time owning any territory.

 

 

 

 

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Big bad pirate here.  

 

If I'm cruising around in my pirate ship looking for someone to pillage, I'm going to be using stealth myself to get as much information and as close as I can to my target.  If I can be 100% invisible, I'm going to have an easy time following someone from a trade hub back to their base when I call my fellow pirates to do piratey things.

 

If only ships can be detected, but bases hidden, I can still follow a ship back to its base, to which point I call my fellow pirates to do piratey things.

 

As Lethys suggested, detection mechanics based on game mechanics would be very interesting.  Learning how to fine tune your base to remain hidden means tradeoffs and planning, which is a good mechanic in my opinion.

 

If you haven't, you might want to read this DevBlog on Territory Protection: https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jayplaygame said:

None of this display HUD stuff where your ship discovers say, 90% of about everyone and everything on planet the second you enter orbit. This will help in balancing out some things

What makes you think Du works that way? Where die you read that? 

 

You're just assuming things here. You can see radar artwork on dualthegame.com. that means, we'll have radar to work with. That means radar is used to pinpoint locations.

 

Building Underground without claiming that territory is dangerous but possible. One would i'll immediatly find you - but one should never able to do so with effort (talking days here not years)

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2 hours ago, Lethys said:

One would i'll immediatly find you - but one should never able to do so with effort (talking days here not years) 

Yeah well, that's what I mean. Immediately finding me is silly, and why does all the focus have to be on me? This is what I mean, Theres going to be THOUSANDS of other players and THOUSANDS of other things to do besides looking for me and my underground base. Why? Why not just add the features, the ability to hide claimed territory UNTIL such time somebody PHYSICALLY stumbles upon the claimed territory and attempts to claim it and it says "Unable to claim, territory already owned" THATS when I'd accept being discovered. Not before that. Naturally I'd put my Territory claim unit underground so simply flying over the general area won't reveal something.

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1 minute ago, Jayplaygame said:

Yeah well, that's what I mean. Immediately finding me is silly, and why does all the focus have to be on me? This is what I mean, Theres going to be THOUSANDS of other players and THOUSANDS of other things to do besides looking for me and my underground base. Why? Why not just add the features, the ability to hide claimed territory UNTIL such time somebody PHYSICALLY stumbles upon the claimed territory and attempts to claim it and it says "Unable to claim, territory already owned" THATS when I'd accept being discovered. Not before that.

The focus isn't on you - If you don't claim a tile then noone will instantly know you're there. But ppl like me will try to find ppl in their hideouts. Yes there are thousands of players and in that alone is a huge advantage. Ppl will have a hard time finding YOU anyway. But you can't hide forever and shouldn't bei allowed to do so. Only when you take extreme measures like flying far away, Not building big things, Not claiming territories and other stuff.

 

Claimed territory needs to be marked somehow though. Imagine entering orbit and doing a quick long range scan. Then you just knowe that 6 of 55894 tiles are taken. Nothing more. Then you have to fly there to get a better scan which allows you (because of skills, modules and such) to determine which org or player claimed that tile. 

 

Who knows If there will be scanners for players? But structures like TCUs, bases and ships can be detected via radar. It would bei much more fun and better gameplay If they did some countermeasures to that. Build your base out of antiradarium to block radar. Then the guy needs to do a thermal scan. If you have a major mining base there which needs alot of heat to run (furnaces) then you'll emit thermal energy which can be detected. If you build so deep that even that is blocked then you still need electricity which could emit EM-waves which could bei detected via some other scanner.

 

All those scanners and countermeasures would need special skills and special modules, need energy and fuel to balance them. Such a system would be way more fun to have because it doesn't make you inherently stealthy or inherently good at detecting others but it would need critical thinking, good planning and actual work to stay hidden or detect others.

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

The focus isn't on you - If you don't claim a tile then noone will instantly know you're there. But ppl like me will try to find ppl in their hideouts. Yes there are thousands of players and in that alone is a huge advantage. Ppl will have a hard time finding YOU anyway. But you can't hide forever and shouldn't bei allowed to do so. Only when you take extreme measures like flying far away, Not building big things, Not claiming territories and other stuff.

 

Claimed territory needs to be marked somehow though. Imagine entering orbit and doing a quick long range scan. Then you just knowe that 6 of 55894 tiles are taken. Nothing more. Then you have to fly there to get a better scan which allows you (because of skills, modules and such) to determine which org or player claimed that tile. 

 

Who knows If there will be scanners for players? But structures like TCUs, bases and ships can be detected via radar. It would bei much more fun and better gameplay If they did some countermeasures to that. Build your base out of antiradarium to block radar. Then the guy needs to do a thermal scan. If you have a major mining base there which needs alot of heat to run (furnaces) then you'll emit thermal energy which can be detected. If you build so deep that even that is blocked then you still need electricity which could emit EM-waves which could bei detected via some other scanner.

 

All those scanners and countermeasures would need special skills and special modules, need energy and fuel to balance them. Such a system would be way more fun to have because it doesn't make you inherently stealthy or inherently good at detecting others but it would need critical thinking, good planning and actual work to stay hidden or detect others.

Stop giving good ideas. It makes the rest of us look bad.

---

Everyone, please note that TCUs are pretty fucken expensive. Nobody can't really just plop one of your land for free and be "omegalulz took yur land -terran onion." Okay, maybe they can. 

 

Let's just assume that there will be no extreme amounts of radars, hiding, or blocking. You can still disguise stuff. Is anyone going to care about a giant mining field that's been stripped of everything useful? No. That's where you build your damn hidden bunkers.

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The limit to technology and the ability to detect things from considerable distances is a VERY debatable subject. All I know is I simply want the ability to build a secret hideaway bunker on some distance planet, claim a territory without it being pinged to every player that just "happens" to do a quick flyby and be undetectable for a long period of time. If that can't even be a reality, then the game won't really feel like an open world or feel like it has any sense of scale to me. Some people want to get lost in the wilderness, I say let them. Plenty of other people to interact with, no need to worry bout me. I'm willing to take the risk of venturing deep into space, away from safe zones, however there should be some compromise, and that is why I have suggested all of this. It's not an overpowered or ridiculous request really. Whether some of it makes sense to you or not I'm not sure, it sounds like I've gotten my point across. I just hope it becomes a reality.

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2 hours ago, Jayplaygame said:

It's not an overpowered or ridiculous request really. 

It is. For obvious and already answered reasons.

 

But fair enough, you're entiteled to your opinion

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It quite frankly isn't, and with that thinking I can call your ability to find me instantaneously overpowered, if that is in fact what the developers decide to go for. Both our ways can be utilized by anyone, so they are both fair in a sense. However not everyone will have access to high tech sensors for example, or even spaceships in some cases. Everyone, and I mean everyone will be able to tunnel underground and hide if they choose to. I understand your issue with this, you think everybody is going to do it and it will make using the player versus player element more difficult then it needs to be. Well this kind of is part of that process, and will give less advanced players more of a chance instead of being obliterated in a fight against a superior foe.

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Good idea, but NQ needs to add good and bad stuff to it so it is a choice to use it and loose something else like shields or speed. Also this system should use energy and stop when out of energy. I do agree we also need something like beakens to call out where we are, specially if you want to build markets or cities. And If stealth is build there should be no exception on size of ships/bases or orgs. If it is added it should be there for everyone.

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I read a forum just after I made my latest comment above that relates to what I'm campaigning for, stealth, fog of war and all of that. From what I've read so far, it looks like people are kind of with me on this one. Think about how PVP will be, do you want to see every structure core, or territory unit or whatever on the map, along with peoples names and blips on the map? No, otherwise you'll have people going from player to player destroying everything they see. Most probably wouldn't exploit the system like this, but some would. If you've played GTA V online then surely you understand the pain behind all of this. That's why blips, name tags and locations of player made structures need to be optional or have some kind ability to 1. camouflage, and 2. remain invisible from sensors and other things in order to get the feel a real and immersive, dangerous and feeling of wilderness and an unknown environment. That's just how it needs to be. Creating broadcasting beacons, advertisement material and of that will of course be available for busy markets, cities and other places that want an audience naturally. Allowing friendlies, faction members and whitelisted people an ability to see the location of you and other structures can be another thing too. Options people. Options, customization. The more choice we get, the better the game is. This relates to other things of course, but what others and myself are proposing here needs to happen.

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oh don't get me wrong - I'm all for stealth, camo and countermeasures (as explained in length) - but I don't think a simple "turn off my name/location" is the right way to do it.

Cause EVERYONE would do it - if it's a "free" countermeasure. It wouldn't hurt pvp so much imho if it was done that way but it would hurt Bountyhunters - and probably would kill their whole profession

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Bounty "hunters". They're called hunters for a reason. They hunt, whats the fun in hunting if you see all your targets? There's absolutely no point or any fun involved if you're just going to tell everyone where everything is, it practically ruins the PVP part of the game.

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1 hour ago, Jayplaygame said:

Bounty "hunters". They're called hunters for a reason. They hunt, whats the fun in hunting if you see all your targets? 

Yes and I agree. But just doing a "hide my location and name" checkbox isn't very fun nor engaging gameplay is it? That's why I think it would be better to use different skills, modules and voxels (as explained). Such a system is way more entertaining for everyone

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Stealth, in the sense of not being detected should be tied to radar / lidar / thermal / electromagnetic / whatever else scanning, with regards to emissions and insulating against radar / lidar / thermal / EM. What this means is that a player / group trying to be stealthy should have to a) limit their power genration and thus automated production, limit their heat generation from things like foundries, smelters etc. b) build their base out of specific mateirals to absorb radar / lidar ( choose one, not both ), and in general insure yourself so that you wont get detected while out and about, so again - limiting emissions and absorbing radar / lidar, not using your own radar / lidar "ping" devices ( you can determine the location of where the ping is coming from, and someone is always listening ). If you want to go full stealth, then you should have to accept the tradeoff that you cant do what big orgs do, without loosing that stealth.

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Once PVP implementation starts, we''ll see what NQ's ultimate aim is for DU, i.e. how viable they want to make life for small groups and solo operators.

 

The easier it is to find "hidden bases", the fewer the game play options will be...

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I expect the smaller orgs will disappear rather fast after implementation of PvP but that depends on the crafting system, if a person can go out and build an entire base out of nothing with only his/her character then they are viable, if anything from a market is needed or to get out in the open they will have a hard time unless they group, but then again, why go solo and group as solo player orgs ;)

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58 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

I expect the smaller orgs will disappear rather fast after implementation of PvP but that depends on the crafting system, if a person can go out and build an entire base out of nothing with only his/her character then they are viable, if anything from a market is needed or to get out in the open they will have a hard time unless they group, but then again, why go solo and group as solo player orgs ;)

Yup, the implementation of PVP will be a "watershed moment" for DU, because that's when everyone will find out how viable their intended play style will be.

 

Hard decisions will have to be made, either adapt or find a new game to play...

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On 11/6/2018 at 8:52 PM, NanoDot said:

because that's when everyone will find out how viable their intended play style will be.

 

Hard decisions will have to be made, either adapt or find a new game to play...

Exactly why myself and everyone else needs to find out what they intend for this as soon as possible.

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