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DoxieDoc

Incentive and ability to build cities in non-protected areas

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The safe areas that are being generated by Novaquark are a great idea, but I feel they may lead to some problematic game elements.

 

  1. Players will likely build in safe areas and only journey outside of them to mine.
  2. Players in safe areas will likely be neighbors with bitter enemies.
  3. Trolls could interrupt multi-hex building projects by claiming hexes in the path of development.
  4. There is less of a reason for people to band together to form protection if it is inherent to the game.

 

I am a huge believer in emergent gameplay, and this game relies almost entirely on it. Emergent gameplay is the idea that rules and systems are established which sort of "Make sense," and then players find ways to extract value, power, and fun from them in ways that the devs may not have initially intended. An example is movement patterns in Starcraft 1, Wormhole pirate guilds in EVE online, and metagame strategies in almost every game.

 

I propose a system which in a simple manner mimics the way real cities were formed. When a new hex territory is claimed grant it "Frontier" status which offers little or no protection. Once it is surrounded by other claimed hex tiles grant the center tile an upgraded protection status and a new name like Rural area. When all the frontier hexes bordering this rural area are surrounded by frontier hexes, they become rural and the center hex becomes suburban. Continue in this pattern for a number of layers, a progression such as:

 

  1. Frontier
  2. Rural
  3. Suburban
  4. Urban
  5. Metropolis

 

Adding and removing layers, changing costs of territories, and modifying levels of protection at each status would give devs control over game balance while still feeling fair for pvp. In addition, this gives groups an incentive to build together as a troll or bad neighbor building near the city would only have frontier status and likely be soon destroyed.

 

There may also need to be other controls like a minimum of a couple of days at each status level (so that a level 5 protected zone cant be sprung up instantly)

 

This would be a simple system which mimics the way cities start small and grow.

 

I also don't think this should replace safe zones, but be in addition to safe zones.

 

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I think that this sort of "growing protection" will happen naturally when a development grows. The more people there are in an area the more resources the establishment has to protect their resources.

 

Also, if Organizations want to make a large fortress/base or expand into new territory to gain new resources or something else then they are going to have to move out from the safe zones to make this worth the time to begin with anyways.

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I like the idea of inner territories being protected by outer territories, but only for non-secure areas.

 

Instead of just territory mechanics, I think economies of scale, travel time, travel cost, and scarcity would be a better way to incentivize building outside of sec. I certainly wouldn't want to fly across the star system, or multiple star systems, every time I need to unload my container of ore. If refining the ore reduces the mass/volume of the product, that will be an incentive in building refineries remotely, and in turn markets and factories etc.

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Could you elaborate more on "more/less protected area"?

AFAIK now TCU prevent unauthorised players from:

-digging

-creating new constructs

-claiming the tile

How would you increase or decrease those? Reduce digging speed in external tiles rather than completely blocking it? Inability to trigger inner FFU before conquering external tiles? Increasing amount of damage you need to deal to trigger FFU?

 

To be honest, I don't like either of those option. Main function of both TU and FFU is protect against random griefers and cowardly night attacks, and preventing attackers from bypassing all surface defences by digging tunnel.

 

Also "town" as opposed to "base" is something created by more or less independent people and organisations. So for your system to work they'd need to give control over TCU to single organisation, rather than just coexisting as neighbours with their own personal claims.

 

People will gather anyway. You need people to trade, you need storage to keep resources for trade, you need people to defend storage. Safe zone is limited to only single planet and its moons - everywhere else towns are the way to go.

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If you find a large vein of ore or maybe a vein of rare ore you will want to protect your investment and that will NOT be possible by staying in the safe zone. This will easily start corporation's venturing out from the safe zones to set up bases and small towns early and near dig sites and other investments! Having processing units for your ore and other resources close to the collection point will save you massive amounts of time by not having to always fly or drive back to the Ark Ship to process items when your almost half way around the planet.

 

Global Markets : This is guess work because it is not implemented yet : If we do not have instant access to trade/vender resources on the open market  then it maybe a skill that will have to be learned ? That means you will have to transport your good back to the Ark Ship to sell them until someone acquires the trade/vender skill in your group. Even if you can sell items from your outpost , base or city half way around the planet : NQ has stated that someone if not you will have to pick up that purchases for you and if its valuable you may want protection which will open up jobs for other players in transportation and protection services!

 

Personally I don't think it will be a problem with people leaving the safe zones but I wanted to show how I think it will probably play out in the game and things in the safe zone cant be attacked not to mention there probably will not be any problem to relocate in the safe zone! Don't like the scenery or the neighborhood just pick up camp and relocate to another safe area!  =) 

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18 hours ago, Haunty said:

I like the idea of inner territories being protected by outer territories, but only for non-secure areas.

 

Instead of just territory mechanics, I think economies of scale, travel time, travel cost, and scarcity would be a better way to incentivize building outside of sec. I certainly wouldn't want to fly across the star system, or multiple star systems, every time I need to unload my container of ore. If refining the ore reduces the mass/volume of the product, that will be an incentive in building refineries remotely, and in turn markets and factories etc.

I think you are absolutely right for incentive, and glad we agree on protection. Mainly it's things like organized overnight raids which can cause problems. Nothing sends a chill up my spine more than imagining some summer vacationers staying up late to destroy something when nobody is around to defend it.

 

Hopefully build-able automated defenses become a thing as well!

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And that is the way to kick experience and huge ambitious people out of safe zone, go to UA, if anyone griefer, trolling by claiming ? Fine let's blow them up and raid them.

Also if player want to build a project with multi hex they should have prepare enough TCU to claim from begining. Like real world, you have to buy a large area first then you can do anything with it, developing by time, dont have worry about the land because you are already claim it.

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Town construction isn't that difficult to accomplish within TCU areas. You'd have to get a 'permit' from the TCU owner in order to be able to build your cat-café or the sorts. Reason? Why, protection of course. The reason towns were built in the first place.

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I will have a area in the safe zone and I don't mind renting it out to builders that don't want to worry about being  harassed  when building and cant afford a Territory Unit !

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What is the purpose of this suggestion, though? NQ has already stated that they are planning on (though not certain of) using TCU 'Shields' with Seige Timers. 

 

Since TCU shielded areas have already been determined to be unassailable for at least 24 hours, what additional benefit does your system provide?

 

Are your proposing that these shields are stacked? That would require incredible long seiges as you'd have to peel a base or city like layers of an onion. This would easily run into weeks and months required to complete a seige. While realistic when compared to medieval warfare, this wouldn't be fun.

 

This appears to give entirely too large a defensive advantage. 

 

However, if I have not understood what you have proposed, please enlighten me. :-)

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16 hours ago, AzureSkye said:

What is the purpose of this suggestion, though? NQ has already stated that they are planning on (though not certain of) using TCU 'Shields' with Seige Timers. 

 

Since TCU shielded areas have already been determined to be unassailable for at least 24 hours, what additional benefit does your system provide?

 

Are your proposing that these shields are stacked? That would require incredible long seiges as you'd have to peel a base or city like layers of an onion. This would easily run into weeks and months required to complete a seige. While realistic when compared to medieval warfare, this wouldn't be fun.

 

This appears to give entirely too large a defensive advantage. 

 

However, if I have not understood what you have proposed, please enlighten me. :-)

Yes I'm suggesting that the center zones would have layers of defense. If there are no automated defenses, NPC guards, or shields which last for multiple days then the game will likely devolve into a wasteland outside of safe zones. 

 

The scenario I'm more worried about is that we go out and build anything impressive which gets destroyed overnight by organized troll raids which launch surprise attacks. This doesn't happen in real life because people sleeping in the city would wake up and fight, but I'm not waking up at 3 AM on a worknight to fight (and I'm sure many others wont as well). Maybe in frontier zones an NPC guard is spawned for every 5 logged out players, but a metropolis zone gets one for every individual player. Maybe we get scripts which function offline for automated weapons. I'm not exactly sure what protections each layer should add. That can be decided by NQ, I just hope they do add buildable defenses for non-safe areas.

 

PS - Yes, it should take weeks to destroy something that took weeks to build.

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44 minutes ago, DoxieDoc said:

Yes I'm suggesting that the center zones would have layers of defense. If there are no automated defenses, NPC guards, or shields which last for multiple days then the game will likely devolve into a wasteland outside of safe zones. 

 

The scenario I'm more worried about is that we go out and build anything impressive which gets destroyed overnight by organized troll raids which launch surprise attacks. This doesn't happen in real life because people sleeping in the city would wake up and fight, but I'm not waking up at 3 AM on a worknight to fight (and I'm sure many others wont as well). Maybe in frontier zones an NPC guard is spawned for every 5 logged out players, but a metropolis zone gets one for every individual player. Maybe we get scripts which function offline for automated weapons. I'm not exactly sure what protections each layer should add. That can be decided by NQ, I just hope they do add buildable defenses for non-safe areas.

 

PS - Yes, it should take weeks to destroy something that took weeks to build.

That's quite interesting and true. In any given online game, we are not really at home sleeping in our virtuals beds. At least, not all the time. So certain arrangements should be implemented to make more realistic our response in case of siege, steal or attack. Then, although we're not there at 5 am on monday, It will seem the case, cos (maybe) a programmed defense robotic network can kindly blow the balls of our visitors. :D 

 

On the other hand, it would be the challenge for those visitors to have more powerful guns and devices, plus a certain number of people, to put down the defense system. This also would demand the owner to improve his defenses (or leave the place), resulting in an amusing aspect of the game (and very profitable for some players too, involved in several enterprises and industries in DU).

 

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1 hour ago, DoxieDoc said:

Yes I'm suggesting that the center zones would have layers of defense. If there are no automated defenses, NPC guards, or shields which last for multiple days then the game will likely devolve into a wasteland outside of safe zones. 

 

The scenario I'm more worried about is that we go out and build anything impressive which gets destroyed overnight by organized troll raids which launch surprise attacks. This doesn't happen in real life because people sleeping in the city would wake up and fight, but I'm not waking up at 3 AM on a worknight to fight (and I'm sure many others wont as well). Maybe in frontier zones an NPC guard is spawned for every 5 logged out players, but a metropolis zone gets one for every individual player. Maybe we get scripts which function offline for automated weapons. I'm not exactly sure what protections each layer should add. That can be decided by NQ, I just hope they do add buildable defenses for non-safe areas.

 

PS - Yes, it should take weeks to destroy something that took weeks to build.

We got timer force shield which will active when enemy decrease your shield to some point. 

You will have ability to prepare for WAR, we still dont know how many time will give you but i'm sure NQ will make it fair for everyone. Everyone have chance to fight, to def, to do.

Also we will got auto defense turret ... to some point, not too good but not too useless, give the attacker a hard time before the timer active.

NPC guard ? No thanks NQ have said: " Everything depend on the player themselve" . NQ give you time to prepare, auto turret to do some more damage and your base to def lmao.

So the chance for surprise attack to wipe out entire a claim land in one go is not gonna happen.

 

1 hour ago, DoxieDoc said:

Yes I'm suggesting that the center zones would have layers of defense. If there are no automated defenses, NPC guards, or shields which last for multiple days then the game will likely devolve into a wasteland outside of safe zones. 

Also ... wont likely to happen. Do you know how a city born ? Depend on its position.

People cant hide in safe zone forever, the need for rare material will rise and so there will be out post city, and in the end grow into a big city because it stay on big vein of ore, intersection of many router, ...

You can mine and bring it back to safe zone but isnt it better to find a spot to refine it first or selling it than risking and increase your fuel consume ? So even it is dangerous, the need will still there.

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2 hours ago, ShioriStein said:



People cant hide in safe zone forever, the need for rare material will rise and so there will be out post city, and in the end grow into a big city because it stay on big vein of ore, intersection of many router, ...
 

Also how cities are formed is that people live in them, and pay taxes so that militaries and police forces can be formed, and then those forces are active 24 hours a day. Do you really expect someone to work a job, come home, and log in to a second job where they watch a border or walk around on patrol for another 8 hours? It isn't real life it's a game and it needs systems to compensate.

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16 minutes ago, DoxieDoc said:

Do you really expect someone to work a job, come home, and log in to a second job where they watch a border or walk around on patrol for another 8 hours?

 

Does not have to be 8 hours, but generally yes, it can be expected. Maybe you would not do it, maybe - subjectively seen - many others would not like this.

 

But for some it's fun. For some it's RP. For some it's thrill or just what they want to do, or at least do for a bit as they play and do other things. If you can't imagine this, there are easy examples that highlight that people exist that want to do this - at least a bit.

 

Roleplaying games (online), such as MMORPGs. Or, more actively, games like ARMA III (and any version before) where people play online in some sort of "cops vs robbers" mode where civilians can do certain jobs, become criminals or where emergency services exist including police that drive around and patrol, respond to incidents, etc. Then there is private security, mercenaries, etc.

 

It's all players doing this. So with those good examples, I think it can be said that it can generally be expected that people contribute to major projects once they come home, in whatever capacity that may be. And if that may be "menial" guard duty or similar, then so be it. Some people will sign up for it and at least do it partially, and with more people you can have shorter "shifts".

 

Some games will simply be relentless. If no one watches your hide-outs, caches, etc, then someone might steal from them or someone might damage them. To prevent or lower this, you need to deal with better or more coverage.

 

In an RP game (G-Mod, Half-Life 2 RP) I once stood at a subway checkpoint for what felt like 8 actual hours (or must've been between 6-8 hours). It's menial, it's repetitive at times or for many, but so is life. You would not believe how many citizens I kept away from the restricted area just by being there and showing presence, and I could do it all from a comfy control room that would control the doors if need be. For some it is boring, but it still served a vital job in the bigger picture.

 

And if players can understand that those jobs can be very vital, their acceptance may rise notably.

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9 minutes ago, Warden said:

 

Does not have to be 8 hours, but generally yes, it can be expected. Maybe you would not do it, maybe - subjectively seen - many others would not like this.

 

But for some it's fun. For some it's RP. For some it's thrill or just what they want to do, or at least do for a bit as they play and do other things. If you can't imagine this, there are easy examples that highlight that people exist that want to do this - at least a bit.

 

Roleplaying games (online), such as MMORPGs. Or, more actively, games like ARMA III (and any version before) where people play online in some sort of "cops vs robbers" mode where civilians can do certain jobs, become criminals or where emergency services exist including police that drive around and patrol, respond to incidents, etc. Then there is private security, mercenaries, etc.

 

It's all players doing this. So with those good examples, I think it can be said that it can generally be expected that people contribute to major projects once they come home, in whatever capacity that may be. And if that may be "menial" guard duty or similar, then so be it. Some people will sign up for it and at least do it partially, and with more people you can have shorter "shifts".

 

Some games will simply be relentless. If no one watches your hide-outs, caches, etc, then someone might steal from them or someone might damage them. To prevent or lower this, you need to deal with better or more coverage.

 

In an RP game (G-Mod, Half-Life 2 RP) I once stood at a subway checkpoint for what felt like 8 actual hours (or must've been between 6-8 hours). It's menial, it's repetitive at times or for many, but so is life. You would not believe how many citizens I kept away from the restricted area just by being there and showing presence, and I could do it all from a comfy control room that would control the doors if need be. For some it is boring, but it still served a vital job in the bigger picture.

 

And if players can understand that those jobs can be very vital, their acceptance may rise notably.

Even in your own example you "once" stood at a subway checkpoint and it was already terrible enough to cause an impression. I think you overestimate people's willingness to do menial labor in a game.

 

The best example is Grand theft auto. Every person has at some point said "I'm going to obey all the traffic laws and play like an upstanding citizen." Flash forward 10 minutes and you have a rocket launcher and 100s of cops after you.

 

 

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People able to and if they want they can do it.

 

If the need for that job is high but litle people want to do it ? The salary, profit for that job also increase so you dont worry about money if you are the only one or the minor doing it.

 

I used to be a paramedic in a SAMP (GTA SA multiplayer) server, it is boring sometime, fun sometime but people usually see it very boring so they join it to get to another department like police, that is how I become its leader after a short time because i'm the only/minor really work for it.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, DoxieDoc said:

Even in your own example you "once" stood at a subway checkpoint and it was already terrible enough to cause an impression. I think you overestimate people's willingness to do menial labor in a game.

 

The best example is Grand theft auto. Every person has at some point said "I'm going to obey all the traffic laws and play like an upstanding citizen." Flash forward 10 minutes and you have a rocket launcher and 100s of cops after you.

 

It wasn't terrible - it depends on your (mental) approach, too. Cat and mouse game. Who would try to sneak past your checkpoint, maybe smuggle items into either direction? It could happen any moment. Besides, I was not ordered by a higher unit to do so and did it voluntarily, things kept happening, I kept interacting with people who ventured down or citizens who probed security in the sector, or other units who came by to have a brief small talk. It did leave an impression because I remained at a spot for so long, which wasn't the case for daily duties where most units usually patrolled or were changing location.

 

I still don't think I overestimate it. Mining or building, harvesting resources, repairing damage constantly, could also be considered menial labor and so on. And yet many will do it - have to do it, to get something done or to contribute in the bigger picture.

 

While one could use the GTA example, I don't think it's too fitting for some situations. The direct comparison may not work if you were to try to pull the same thing in some DU city later that would enforce traffic laws (for whatever practical reason or simply for immersion) - which would ironically send player cops (or similar) after you. In GTA SP (and normal MP), no one will mind you for ignoring standard traffic laws. I think I get what you mean to say, I just don't think 'the glove fits well in any situation'.

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Cop get me in GTA SAMP when i'm driving a truck with illegal item. The reason they check my truck because I go pass when it red light lmao.

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21 minutes ago, DoxieDoc said:

Even in your own example you "once" stood at a subway checkpoint and it was already terrible enough to cause an impression. I think you overestimate people's willingness to do menial labor in a game.

 

The best example is Grand theft auto. Every person has at some point said "I'm going to obey all the traffic laws and play like an upstanding citizen." Flash forward 10 minutes and you have a rocket launcher and 100s of cops after you.

 

 

Guess all those people in eve on Guard duty who roam their territory, scout for hours and sit in different locations to watch others do it wrong then. It's done there every day, every hour by hundreds of players. 

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I sincerely hope you are all right, but I don't think you are. I also don't think I can convince you otherwise, so I will simply disagree and move on!

 

I wish we could all go to lunch and talk about stuff like this. It'd be an interesting discussion.

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I think that if you pay enough there will be people that guard your border. Simply said, Well I am in BMC, a mercenary group that will take up jobs as a neutral organization, and a job is a job, as long as it pays right. Same for building your city, you can do it yourself or hire people or mercenaries. With the right payment it can be build. Ill sent you a pm.

 

Greetz Aaron

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its also rarely boring, as your avatar may be guarding but you might be private messaging your corp mates, or on voice comms talking shit, or prepping for the next big mission/project etc. (Or maybe even making you think he is outside your base prepping for attack while his alt is inside your base stealing your ships..... ).

 

So never assume.......  :)

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