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Tactician

My biggest worry about this game

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@Felonu

 

It's literally in the game's tagline. "Rebuild civilisation". Antisocial people like you don't like that, too bad, I don't like them not - very possibly - having no mel,ee weapon i nthe game. What can I do, I'll just go with it. It's not meant to be played as a singleplayer. Deal with it.

And like with your other blunders, you still haven't done your research at all :


Since you clearly have a problem doing research - a common problem with ignorant people - here's the important quote, see, I am good to you, I will enlighten you.

 

Quote

Are scammers / griefers going to be banned by admins in-game? If someone tricks another to give them money for nothing, would the scammer be banned in that scenario?

 

 

Dual Universe is a game about freedom, we don't want to arbitrarily draw a line between what is a scam and what is a failed business proposal. Players will have to use their judgment, report scammers publicly to help other to identify them (and possibly retaliate). The way we will handle griefers is that we will introduce game mechanics that will make their life more difficult, in particular the bounty system (to be described in a future post). People can also unite against them and build their own justice system. There will however be limits to how far harrasment can go and we reserve the right to interviene in the most extreme cases. This is still just a game, remember.


There are no magical defenses, you wil lhave to set up a justice system and deal with people with bounty hunters - or more likely, "good griefers", since you clearly have a Victor's Bias, it's common with your kind of people.

Someone wronged you, make sure you can spread the word and have them blacklisted. If you travel alone, ou wil lbe easy prey. Join a grou, or pay someoen to ferry you elsewhere. I guess that's hard though. You suffer from Powerus Fantasiticus Derpicus syndrone, a debilitating mental disorder than prohibbits peopel from enjoying an MMO like a MULTIPLAYER GAME, unless they can ignore the MMO part and just be antisocial 101%.
 

The above NQ quote is how EVE works. People ganking you and your friends to push you out of a territory or a mining zone you operate? That's okay, that's fine, that's how Black Ops fleets work in EVE - Black Ops being an alliance's group of dedicated griefers and, at times, just a siege fleet meant to remind people who's boss by knockign their sandcastles down. You know, this is a Sandbox, not a Theme Park. You are in the wrong communtiy if you want a Theme Park MMO.

But you threaten a person IRL in-game, forums, or Novaquark related channels (like a convention)? That's a reason for a suspension and / or ban.

No, debates don't count as ad hominem, if your arguement is crap, you can't hide behind "my feelings got hurt", you will be reminded you are wrong, as I will remind people how Blazemonger proposed "DUCON" as the DU convention name. Which was funny as hell, but I'll let you do the googling on why DUCON for a FRENCH game is a bad name for a convention. That will NEVER go away. It's not an ad hominem, it's a fact. He wanted to anme a DU conventio nas "DUCON". What a legendary story i nthe making.

Like it's a fact you don't do your research, like when you claimed my "claims" werre "lies", on the CvC involving the mining bubbles showcaed on every video and devdiary...  while JC Baillie has said that on the AMA video on youtube... You may have a short memory, but I got an eidetic one.


And likewise, you talk out of your large intestine's rear exit. EVE's problem is its demand on being a multitasker in PvP, which I can testify, is not very fun, it's rewarding you for being quick on reacting, but it's not fun, it's very stressful, as you got to pay attention to 20 different things on the screen. It's not inhospitable cause of the "wild west in space". That's a myth, a carebear myth.

This is what DU should not become to succeed :

Αποτέλεσμα εικόνας για EVE Online difficulty curve

 

And since NQ just solved it by having multi-crew in mind, I guess DU has NONE of EVE's problems in my book.

If you are antisocial or cyberagorophobic, that's not NQ's problem to fix. 

 

Backstabblings will take place, and they will make for much nice advertisement for DU on the web. Mutinies will go down, your ship will be stolen at one point, but hey, who cares, it's a game.


Peace, have a happy new year. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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2 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

@Felonu

 

It's literally in the game's tagline. "Rebuild civilisation". Antisocial people like you don't like that, too bad, I don't like them not - very possibly - having no mel,ee weapon i nthe game. What can I do, I'll just go with it. It's not meant to be played as a singleplayer. Deal with it.

And like with your other blunders, you still haven't done your research at all :


-snip- because wall of text

Thank you for basing an entire post on assumptions about other people and using that to rant against those people without adding a single new piece of information to the conversation.  This is proof of my point that assumptions don’t help the conversation.  

 

   Nothing you said was anything but a strawman argument.  You turned your misinterpretation of my words into the strawman.  I don’t think grieving should be punishable.  I don’t want to play by myself.  I wasn’t even talking about my personal game preferences.  I also never said I knew what EVEs problem was.  I was talking about the perception of EVE from new players, and people that won’t play because of perceptions.  I was talking about things that I think could help DU avoid some of these playerbase limitations.

 

    You don’t seem to want to have an honest conversation though.  You want to belittle and twist the meanings of those insignificant dissenting opinions.

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@Felonu I understand you concern, in the past eve did had a reputation of being a bit rough at the start. In fact I remember it being portrayed exactly as the image twerk linked. This was kind of a double edged sword, it both attracted and repelled people from the game. Many including myself wanted the high skill level, deep combat mechanics and freedom but others wanted a simpler game where things were more forgiving and got discouraged because of the abrupt difficulty spike. Nowadays I think things have gotten a bit better, CCP itself and a number of player made corporations have acted to help ease the problem by introducing a better tutorial system and guiding players a bit better in their early days. They maintained the high level of difficulty but helped new players overcome it by educating them better (exactly as Lethys has pointed out).

 

I would like to see DU take a similar path because I want to experience the thrill of overcoming impossible odds and fighting in crazy and unpredictable scenarios. For me eve scratched that difficulty itch where if you knew what you were doing and were good at it then you were often rewarded and I loved it for that. I am all for making that graph a little more linear for the new guys but I still want to experience the top of it and I think a lot of people feel the same.

 

Putting a shield on things might be a good solution for protecting the new guys and that's fine with me but I am a little worried that if implemented poorly it could also lower the top and take away from that experience. Your idea that their should be a price for attacking is not a bad one, but keep in mind that attacking already caries with it significant risks and consequences. We need to be careful not to make it prohibitively difficult to engage in pvp. I think in the long run, I prefer a 1:1 approach to the cost of attacking vs defending. I know its not very appealing to those that want to avoid pvp but NQ has promised a safezone, if you want petition to have it bigger or ask that they have more of them but please we need to find solutions that still allow those of us who want the dangerous chaotic environment to still have it.

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28 minutes ago, Felonu said:

Thank you for basing an entire post on assumptions about other people and using that to rant against those people without adding a single new piece of information to the conversation.  This is proof of my point that assumptions don’t help the conversation.  

 

   Nothing you said was anything but a strawman argument.  You turned your misinterpretation of my words into the strawman.  I don’t think grieving should be punishable.  I don’t want to play by myself.  I wasn’t even talking about my personal game preferences.  I also never said I knew what EVEs problem was.  I was talking about the perception of EVE from new players, and people that won’t play because of perceptions.  I was talking about things that I think could help DU avoid some of these playerbase limitations.

 

    You don’t seem to want to have an honest conversation though.  You want to belittle and twist the meanings of those insignificant dissenting opinions.

You act exactly how modern day people who have their arguements attacked act. "My feelings are hurt, this person who proved me wrong is a bully".

Deal with it, DU has killed the main problem of EVE, in fact, it killed two problems on EVE that are the main reason newbros can't get into the game :

1) The difficulty of PvP - since you DO the work of a whole crew on your own.

2) The amount of alt accounts you need to succeed cause of the whole "passive building" on industry, meaning you need at least 3 accounts to get ahead in manufacturing. DU has dealt with that by having constructs' scripts runs client-side. You may say that doesn't solve anything, only means people will run DU o nemtoe servers for running industry 24/7. Thing is, that's easy to trace on NQ's part, while in EVE, passive industry is part of the game ( and a problem). There are currentyl , in this community, Titan pilots who run 15 accounts at a time in EVE for industry + skillpoint injectors (another cancer on its own) and they say "DU is balanced on the industry field, you need people to field an industry focused corporation, unlike in EVE, where it's a one man show".

I pointed you to the official AMA (which you clearly never read) and you ignored it. You made your move. As expected, it was a poor one, you play on emotions - like all antisocial sociopaths do - and now you use "other people" as a fascade for putting yourself as a champion of the people and a "good guy", while painting me as a "yarr pirrate, who will plunder yerr booty and cut your jolly rogers in half yarrr harrr harrr" or soem crap like that.

The game is an MMO, go play singleplayer minecraft if you don't want anyone to bother you.

Hire bounty hutners if people attack you, or join a bigger alliance to live under their protection - taxations are for that part of civilisation, the police is not privately funded, nor is the army of your country.

If you have a problem with "rebuilding civilisation", you have a problem with the main allure of the game.  Which is your problem, again, not DU's.

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11 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

You act exactly how modern day people who have their arguements attacked act. "My feelings are hurt, this person who proved me wrong is a bully".

Deal with it, DU has killed the main problem of EVE, in fact, it killed two problems on EVE that are the main reason newbros can't get into the game :

1) The difficulty of PvP - since you DO the work of a whole crew on your own.

2) The amount of alt accounts you need to succeed cause of the whole "passive building" on industry, meaning you need at least 3 accounts to get ahead in manufacturing. DU has dealt with that by having constructs' scripts runs client-side. You may say that doesn't solve anything, only means people will run DU o nemtoe servers for running industry 24/7. Thing is, that's easy to trace on NQ's part, while in EVE, passive industry is part of the game ( and a problem). There are currentyl , in this community, Titan pilots who run 15 accounts at a time in EVE for industry + skillpoint injectors (another cancer on its own) and they say "DU is balanced on the industry field, you need people to field an industry focused corporation, unlike in EVE, where it's a one man show".

I pointed you to the official AMA (which you clearly never read) and you ignored it. You made your move. As expected, it was a poor one, you play on emotions - like all antisocial sociopaths do - and now you use "other people" as a fascade for putting yourself as a champion of the people and a "good guy", while painting me as a "yarr pirrate, who will plunder yerr booty and cut your jolly rogers in half yarrr harrr harrr" or soem crap like that.

The game is an MMO, go play singleplayer minecraft if you don't want anyone to bother you.

Hire bounty hutners if people attack you, or join a bigger alliance to live under their protection - taxations are for that part of civilisation, the police is not privately funded, nor is the army of your country.

If you have a problem with "rebuilding civilisation", you have a problem with the main allure of the game.  Which is your problem, again, not DU's.

You said those same things in your previous post, and as I pointed out they don't speak to any of my points.  You are still arguing a straw man that you are building.  You can't seem to actually debate the actual conversation so you make my post about what you want it to be about so that you have the ability to argue it.  You simply don't have the ability to have a conversation with anybody who disagrees with you, because you are incapable of trying to understand what anybody else is trying to say.

 

@Msoul  I appreciate you actually talking about my points and I agree that there does need to be complicated intricate gameplay in the macro game.  I personally think that 1:1 ratio lends to a slightly more aggression based game than I would prefer, but understand the importance of both playstyles giving their input to come out with what will be the most fun for the most players.  Having honest discourse with both sides stating their opinions, and NQ deciding the value of the different options and applying their vision to it is what I believe will make for the most fun exciting game play.

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@Felonu We seem to be on the same page, I wish more people were as understanding about this issue as you. I think part of the problem is all this text based communication going on nowadays, its impossible to discern the tone of a conversation anymore. Anyways, we are all used to living on our own side of the fence so of course some of our ideologies are going to clash. However as you said at the end of the day NQ will have to make the tough decisions, all we can do is offer our advice and suggestions.

 

I have stated my position on topic but unfortunately I don't have any great revolutionary ideas to offer on how to solve the actual dilemma. Eve tried to handle things by offering layers of security in the form of high sec, low sec, and null sec. It was somewhat of an effective approach but it had its share of problems too. Perhaps we need a more modern implementation. Maybe integrating it with your idea of manipulating the attack and defend ratio somehow. I don't know, its very hard to give everyone what they want. I'm just going to leave it to the experts to figure it out, besides I think my perspective already has plenty of representation.

 

@CaptainTwerkmotor You can be very blunt and rude at times but I do agree with your stance, appreciate what your trying to do and I especially like your persistence. I don't really have the right to complain especially considering you are going around doing the work of 10 men, but could you try to be a little more patient with people? Not everyone is blessed with as much experience in pvp as you have and we don't want to scare away new blood.

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10 hours ago, Felonu said:

You said those same things in your previous post, and as I pointed out they don't speak to any of my points. 

Because he really does not know anything about the subject matter and assumes whatever he thinks is going on (in other games). He does not play EVE, has no actual knowledge of the game mechanics and by his very comments basically confirms as much. All he has is a collection of images he copied, Youtube videos he has watched and Reddit posts he read. For him these are what defines EVE and the people that play it. He is unable to recognize that what people say about each other in game is generally just banter and play. 

 

He does not even realize he is using the _exact_ same attitude and terminology against anyone who does not blindly accept whet he believes to be the truth. Just the simple fact that there's quite a few here who can easily debunk his nonsense should tell you who is actually incorrect..

 

But arguing is pointless as he'll just rehash the same rhetoric without ever actually backing up anything he says.. I've thrown him a challenge which he has consistently ignored.. obviously because he would be exposed as the clueless troll he is.

 

It would be nice if there was an ignore button but there is not. Also, as NQ seems to be fine with his attitude I guess we'll see this community go towards LoL and WoW level of toxicity fairly quickly once more of these kids start showing  up.

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I totally forgot about the AMA there twerk linked (which everyone just ignored)

 

It's really only circle jerking as the "carebears" want their "Safe space" and the "griefers" want their "ffa come at me Bro" (mind the "" ...) And both Talk about the same thing but have other fears (too much pvp, too less pvp)

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17 minutes ago, Lethys said:

 

It's really only circle jerking as the "carebears" want their "Safe space" and the "griefers" want their "ffa come at me Bro" (mind the "" ...) And both Talk about the same thing but have other fears (too much pvp, too less pvp)

Funny thing is, both sides need each other. DU as a game can't work without people creating things and people destroying things. 

 

I'm pretty carebear by most standards but if I wanted a game to just build silly stuff I'd play minecraft. 

 

My advice, relax it's just a game. Let's see how the game actually plays before burning down the roof. 

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31 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Because he really does not know anything about the subject matter and assumes whatever he thinks is going on (in other games). He does not play EVE, has no actual knowledge of the game mechanics and by his very comments basically confirms as much. All he has is a collection of images he copied, Youtube videos he has watched and Reddit posts he read. For him these are what defines EVE and the people that play it. He is unable to recognize that what people say about each other in game is generally just banter and play. 

 

He does not even realize he is using the _exact_ same attitude and terminology against anyone who does not blindly accept whet he believes to be the truth. Just the simple fact that there's quite a few here who can easily debunk his nonsense should tell you who is actually incorrect..

 

But arguing is pointless as he'll just rehash the same rhetoric without ever actually backing up anything he says.. I've thrown him a challenge which he has consistently ignored.. obviously because he would be exposed as the clueless troll he is.

 

It would be nice if there was an ignore button but there is not. Also, as NQ seems to be fine with his attitude I guess we'll see this community go towards LoL and WoW level of toxicity fairly quickly once more of these kids start showing  up.

 

You claim NQ's words are "my" opinions? Are you serious? You done that in the past, but now you just did it openly and to a serious degree. You ignored the AMA post I linked.  You are that much of a failtrain,,,.

Quickly, call for help, beg for others to help your losing arguement. You have zero power. You never had and never will have. You can't stand your own ground or defend your own position in a debate.

You are ignorant. The summary of your posts is clear by now. From your claims of "10000 years from now the laws of physics will change" posts earlier in your arrival on the forums - which they won't, gravity will never stop working, nor PEGs will ever be invented like in EVE, cause it's  physics, you can't input 10 and get 10000 in a closed system - to your claims I am a "specialised minority who doesn't care for the little guy" fallacy - which makes sense, coming from a glorified IT guy from what people in Providence informed me of - to the claims "you don't know of XYZ on the DU topic you speak of" while I provided links, to your being triggered when I pointed out you being a real viper against Chance Revinne and WingspanTT - which grief people for lolzies and do not care, they kill people and send mocking mails afterwards to rub salt on the defeated's wounds and on top of that, make videos MOCKING said people on youtube, people you clearly DO NOT WANT in DU, cause they are better than you in EVE.

So, you are a knave, a viper and easily susceptible to marketing consumer, with disregard for people linking you the Kickstarter AMA, Interviews, the AMA Video JC given, the GDC2017 interview given, the presentations JC Baillie given on multiple occasions where he answered all the topics you claim are "not spoken off", to your wanting the DU Convention to be named DUCON - which is the cherry on the top.

You also recite Reddit a lot. I guess now we know why you suck at debates. It's hard to have an honest debate when your peasantry can't downvote my comment to oblivion. Also, I know why you got so triggered from my "your boss yells at you" comment. The Providence informants told me that will tilt you easily. And you fell for it, they also said you get fleets baited into cynos a lot - but you got connections so people just tolerate you - but I can't confirm the cyno bait part, although I don't hold it beyond you, you did buy the Stream Deck for no real reason baited by Elgato's marketing, which is the equivalent in money of totallig a fleet in EVE worth of the same IRL money. You know, you failing at being a good scout in EVE after all your years playing it, doesn't make RnK "masterminds of tactics", it means you are just not good enough to scout for fleets.

NQ made their stance, harrassment is punished, griefing is not. Deal with it. As long as you don't start flinging poop around, NQ doesn't care if yo ugank a person 10 or 1000 times. Vendettas are emergent gameplay.

Keep talking though, you provide lines for the Band of Outlaws tradition of collecting quotes of nonsense and making them into potential ship mottos. In that regard, you are a gold mine of memes. We feed on memes. :D

Cheers, have a happy new year - and I hope your boss gets fired, that guy is an a-hole from what I gather and not the Starlord kind of a-hole.

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26 minutes ago, Falstaf said:

Funny thing is, both sides need each other. DU as a game can't work without people creating things and people destroying things. 

 

I'm pretty carebear by most standards but if I wanted a game to just build silly stuff I'd play minecraft. 

 

My advice, relax it's just a game. Let's see how the game actually plays before burning down the roof. 

Wiser words have never been spoken - on this thread at least.

I don't got a problem with people who want to avoid PvP, I respect that. DU is a game that NEEDS RPers and "sandbox skills" people, from people who run industry, to people who run in-game academies (like in EVE, we have EVE University) to all the people who just don't like pew pew and just want to play a sandbox game. That doesn';t mean we should put a safety bubble around everyone. Those people, could also enjoy "safe PvP" in some sort of arenas in-game, where the defeated just yields and doesn't die or lose all their items - hence, "safe" PvP. But that's that. Exploration means danger and banditry.

Sure, NQ can add things like in EVE, where you got gun safety levels. and possibly a visual indication when someone has their gun safety off - like a red effect on their nanoformer or something , I don't know, not a game designer, don't know how they convey such things. A way of conveying to people "this person is armed and has their guns' safety off, so they CAN attack you. And hey, if you turn your safety off within a person's territory that means Red Alert, and the person who did that is flagged as "Outlaw" since they are ignoring your "laws" within your territory - good Cops VS Outlaws gameplay imho. Also, in EVE's null-sec, EVERYONE has their safety off - for obvious reasons. You don't go into 1970s Vietnam jungle and have your safety on.

But that kind of mechanics demands people to pay attention to the game, so most people would say "NOOOOOOOOOOOO, that's too hard, I need a magical shield around me, or the attacker to pay with their firstborn for having the privilege of attacking me". Which is my problem with the general arguement. It's not a sandbox if we got "PvP flag", it's a Theme Park with voxels.

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13 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

 "PvP flag", it's a Theme Park with voxels.

 

I don't think a sandbox always needs FFA PvP to be sandbox, but that's a whole other debate. 

 

But in this case for Dual Universe, I don't think you can use bubble wrap mechanics. 

 

I suppose it's a bit like real life, you can't opt out of the laws of physics you don't like. It's the same for Dual Universe in my opinion, one universe with consistent rules. The safezone is already a lot more than we usually get in these type of games. 

 

Personal soapbox moment, it's silly to want a game to be perfectly tailored to your exact wishes. Sometimes mechanics are there to provide a better game, not just to annoy you. :P

 

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If I remember, some of the problems about EVE:-

 

1. Complexity for NPE (new player experience).

2. The EVE revenue model requires new players (older players can plex to zero cost?)

3. The best game play is huge fleet battles but these are extremely expensive and make the servers creak hence Time Dilation? So it's limited frequency.

4. The image of PvP gank-fest / ".xlsx the game" reduces the appeal to a significant segment of the mmo market without even going to step 1 from this step 0.

 

Maybe there's more some other experienced EVE players might be able to summarize?

 

Of course we talk about EVE because it's worth it, where it has problems it also has triumphs:-

 

1. Story generationDualUniverse/

2. Emergent player behaviour

3. Social orgs

4. Scale is much bigger than other games etc

 

Coming back to DU:

 

With the innovative combination and use of new tech: I expect with the correct incentives and reducing the alienating pressures (similar to EVE) we might very well see a game with x10 (perhaps even more?) the total population of players / accounts / subscribers than EVE at it's peak. Let's just say x10 for the purposes of comparing rather than predicting.

 

Even in this scenario what you see happening is a large proportion of those extra players gravitating towards building/creating/socially collaborative/cooperative (as opposed to competitive).

 

This is good for everyone as @Falstaf just pointed out!

 

It involves DU pulling off the new tech and positive design successfully, but as important avoiding problems already identified from previous games (not false 'positives' of negative outcomes either). As said the most negative outcome is empty worlds because of a disproportionately dominant dynamic that leads to extinction of the player base over time, irrespective of all the other positive designs.

 

Personally, as per the AMA CvC answer: I can't wait to see a planetary war erupt involves hundreds of hulking Constructs (war of the worlds style) and perhaps thousands of avatars too. Life exists in motion, not in a static void: Where there is life there is problems.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

If I remember, some of the problems about EVE:-

 

1. Complexity for NPE (new player experience).

2. The EVE revenue model requires new players (older players can plex to zero cost?)

3. The best game play is huge fleet battles but these are extremely expensive and make the servers creak hence Time Dilation? So it's limited frequency.

4. The image of PvP gank-fest / ".xlsx the game" reduces the appeal to a significant segment of the mmo market without even going to step 1 from this step 0.

 

Maybe there's more some other experienced EVE players might be able to summarize?

 

Of course we talk about EVE because it's worth it, where it has problems it also has triumphs:-

 

1. Story generationDualUniverse/

2. Emergent player behaviour

3. Social orgs

4. Scale is much bigger than other games etc

 

Coming back to DU:

 

With the innovative combination and use of new tech: I expect with the correct incentives and reducing the alienating pressures (similar to EVE) we might very well see a game with x10 (perhaps even more?) the total population of players / accounts / subscribers than EVE at it's peak. Let's just say x10 for the purposes of comparing rather than predicting.

 

Even in this scenario what you see happening is a large proportion of those extra players gravitating towards building/creating/socially collaborative/cooperative (as opposed to competitive).

 

This is good for everyone as @Falstaf just pointed out!

 

It involves DU pulling off the new tech and positive design successfully, but as important avoiding problems already identified from previous games (not false 'positives' of negative outcomes either). As said the most negative outcome is empty worlds because of a disproportionately dominant dynamic that leads to extinction of the player base over time, irrespective of all the other positive designs.

 

Personally, as per the AMA CvC answer: I can't wait to see a planetary war erupt involves hundreds of hulking Constructs (war of the worlds style) and perhaps thousands of avatars too. Life exists in motion, not in a static void: Where there is life there is problems.

 

 

Plex (as DAC) are bought with rl money by someone (at a higher price than a normal sub) which means that even If EVERYONE used Plex/DAC, NQ would actually make more money. YOU don't pay with rl money, but some other guy did for you.

 

EVEs main problem is the very Bad tutorial (if it's even possible to call it a tutorial). So new ppl get thrown in this vast universe with literally no clue. They start doing stuff they learned in that tut (like flying Missions or Mining) and don't really care for all the other stuff that's going in in high sec because they don't even KNOW it's an issue (gankers, evasion mechanics, fitting your ship properly, gameplay mechanics to be safe,...). That's partly because the players want instant gratification and don't care for in depth explanations of gameplay mechanics (which is understandable) and partly because they just never didn't saw what Eve ist really about (eg Bad Tutorials). 

So by the time they slowly learn the game (mostly alone) they Encounter people who want to kill them, griefers, gatecamps and If they're in a small org they get wardecced for a green killboard. Can't follow me what this all means with all the implications involved? Good, neither do those new ppl. That's what they face and they have no clue at all.

Only Few live through these rough times.

 

When those newbros finally leave they're bitter and salty about Eve because they just don't know better. There ARE ENOUGH mechanics to help you defend against others but noone actually ever showed them those.

 

So how to tackle this? Hard question indeed. 

Imho there should be a good tutorial which slowly and over time (with more skills unlocked) shows them how to do things.

But for all other stuff like Meta, ship building, survivability, moving in enemy Terrain, and all other social aspects you need a player run org cause no tutorial can show you these mechanics

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Plex (as DAC) are bought with rl money by someone (at a higher price than a normal sub) which means that even If EVERYONE used Plex/DAC, NQ would actually make more money. YOU don't pay with rl money, but some other guy die for you.

 

EVEs main problem is the very Bad tutorial (if it's even possible to call it a tutorial). So new ppl get thrown in this vast universe with literally no clue. They start doing stuff they learned in that tut (like flying Missions or Mining) and don't really care for all the other stuff that's going in in high sec because they don't even KNOW it's an issue (gankers, evasion mechanics, fitting your ship properly, gameplay mechanics to be safe,...). That's partly because the players want instant gratification and don't care for in depth explanations of gameplay mechanics (which is understandable) and partly because they just never didn't saw what Eve ist really about (eg Bad Tutorials). 

So by the time they slowly learn the game (mostly alone) they Encounter people who want to kill them, griefers, gatecamps and If they're in a small org they get wardecced for a green killboard. Can't follow me what this all means with all the implications involved? Good, neither do those new ppl. That's what they face and they have no clue at all.

Only Few live through these rough times.

 

When those newbros finally leave they're bitter and salty about Eve because they just don't know better. There ARE ENOUGH mechanics to help you defend against others but noone actually ever showed them those.

 

So how to tackle this? Hard question indeed. 

Imho there should be a good tutorial which slowly and over time (with more skills unlocked) shows them how to do things.

But for all other stuff like Meta, ship building, survivability, moving in enemy Terrain, and all other social aspects you need a player run org cause no tutorial can show you these mechanics

Yup I was one of those people who tried EVE (a very long time ago!) and despite it's great design, thought I'd prefer to hear about others playing it than play it myself. So how do many veteran players get to play for free via PLEX? Doesn't that lead to CCP losing revenue from these players? tbh it's been about 5-6yrs since I last looked at how the PLEX system works?

 

As for DU, it has the building gameplay and it's looking incredible fun already because it's so multi-dimensional and stimulating...

 

Easy: Get new players into a big built up spendiferous place buzzing with players high and low, palaces a plenty, kings a.... you get the picture!

 

Get them building and having fun and socializing and buzzing with fun! Straight away looking at all these fabulous creations in a safe space *shudders at that phrase in rl!!*

 

High conversion under such conditions I suspect. :-)

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38 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

So how do many veteran players get to play for free via PLEX? Doesn't that lead to CCP losing revenue from these players?

Every Plex that can be traded in Eve got bought with real money. So while the veteran player might buy the Plex with ISK the guy he buys it from has bought it with real money (or someone down the line if the Plex got traded multiple times.) For every Plex in existence in Eve, real money has been spend.

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11 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

Every Plex that can be traded in Eve got bought with real money. So while the veteran player might buy the Plex with ISK the guy he buys it from has bought it with real money (or someone down the line if the Plex got traded multiple times.) For every Plex in existence in Eve, real money has been spend.

Thank you Forodrim, that is a weight off my mind, overloaded with info as I currently am.

 

Who knows perhaps Alioth itself could have zero mining, regulated building (imported materials) and zero pvp and expand the whole starter zone ; newbie experience to the entire planet (in time)?

 

Or perhaps organizations might all agree to enact such a policy through sheer player-driven choice sans any special rules?

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9 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

Who knows perhaps Alioth itself could have zero mining, regulated building (imported materials) and zero pvp and expand the whole starter zone ; newbie experience to the entire planet (in time)?

Mining will most likely be one of the first professions a new player will do to earn some quanta. Also Building is one of the core feature of the game, so I think it would be bad to limit it for new players. 

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26 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

Who knows perhaps Alioth itself could have zero mining, regulated building (imported materials) and zero pvp and expand the whole starter zone ; newbie experience to the entire planet (in time)?

Yea.. I would file that in the not very probable pile. :P

 

In general I would think it would be good for everyone to try to be as welcoming as possible to new players. Which is very easy on the forum and beyond but impossible in game. Next to the obvious new player experience troubles EVE has, one of its biggest issues is being seen as "that game flooded by psychos". That is an issue where both the community and CCP are responsible. Not to mention that EVE is bloated as hell, a double edged sword in my opinion. 

 

And in game, you can't exactly flag new players in game as being new. That would be a literall bulls eye to some players. 

Good and easy to understand tutorials are key but most of the game can't be explained in a tutorial. I personally see a lot of potential in player run initiatives to welcome fresh blood. In game and out of game. 

 

As always I feel you can't single out one or two issues with EVE and translate that to DU. 

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31 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

Mining will most likely be one of the first professions a new player will do to earn some quanta. Also Building is one of the core feature of the game, so I think it would be bad to limit it for new players. 

You may very well be right: Perhaps mining on Alioth's various (and suddenly numerous) moons?

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15 minutes ago, Falstaf said:

Yea.. I would file that in the not very probable pile. :P

 

In general I would think it would be good for everyone to try to be as welcoming as possible to new players. Which is very easy on the forum and beyond but impossible in game. Next to the obvious new player experience troubles EVE has, one of its biggest issues is being seen as "that game flooded by psychos". That is an issue where both the community and CCP are responsible. Not to mention that EVE is bloated as hell, a double edged sword in my opinion. 

 

And in game, you can't exactly flag new players in game as being new. That would be a literall bulls eye to some players. 

Good and easy to understand tutorials are key but most of the game can't be explained in a tutorial. I personally see a lot of potential in player run initiatives to welcome fresh blood. In game and out of game. 

 

As always I feel you can't single out one or two issues with EVE and translate that to DU. 

The LUA scripts on screen for bespoke player-made tutorials? That might be stunning. A lot like player made "quests" but designed to teach and learn the basics effectively in more dimensions of gameplay.

 

I really do think a stunning introduction to new players on Alioth will be worth it's weight in gold.

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7 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

The LUA scripts on screen for bespoke player-made tutorials?

You can create SVG graphics with Lua and according to the Lua Tutorial you can import pictures as well. So I think it might be a good project to create a "DU-University" in game. Which would include advanced topics. Depending on the Lua scripting you might be able to do "tests" in game. 

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10 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

The LUA scripts on screen for bespoke player-made tutorials? That might be stunning. A lot like player made "quests" but designed to teach and learn the basics effectively in more dimensions of gameplay.

Yup, that's what I'm thinking. 

And I'm fairly certain that it will happen in game. In EVE there is too much text for a lot of players. But from what I have seen about DU so far I think that won't be the case with DU

 

Unfortunately there is no tutorial that can teach a person to achieve a goal with social skills. Although I don't think the average theme park player will come to DU. (not saying all theme park players lack social skills) 

 

Yet, I heard J.C. mention that they hope to attract non MMO players. So who knows maybe we get a fresh generation that lack the years of bad habits. :P

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13 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

You can create SVG graphics with Lua and according to the Lua Tutorial you can import pictures as well. So I think it might be a good project to create a "DU-University" in game. Which would include advanced topics. Depending on the Lua scripting you might be able to do "tests" in game. 

 

https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/alpha-academy

 

Alpha Academy fills this role already, and has some good community leaders in it. Whether they stick together through release or not, idk. Just thought I'd share in case you didn't know. Agree with all you said. 

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