Jump to content

Radar-system


TheLongWorm
 Share

Recommended Posts

I think an Radar system to detect Different Constructs would help the Gameplay a lot. It would cause that unknown ships can be detected. This would mean that Pirats can be detected and prats can detect other ships. That would just add an other Job to the game players how try to communicate with the Unknown ships and request help by they're organisation or others that are willing to help.

 

 

 

 

I didn't saw this Idea anywhere so i just post it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lua scripting could provide this ... it could also be plugged in to some sort of ship identification module or something that provides the equivalent of a black box ident.

Interestingly though pirates could abuse the system by faking the ident info just like in the real world.

 

Or maybe this is something that NQ could offer up as an element so it can't be tampered with.

 

I'm still curious to see how blueprinting will work ... for example if I blueprint a "radar system" then sell a radar unit to you ... how do the following things get confirmed ...

  1. I didn't write some script that empties your bank for turning it on
  2. You can use this thing and trust it to work as described
  3. The internal workings are my IP so you can't copy them

Having solved those sorts of questions I think there's a ton of potential for lots of ships systems like ...

  • Shielding controller
  • Weapons controller
  • door / loading bay controller
  • Auth systems (to protect access to certain areas on a ship)
  • General "mapping systems" to help people find their way around a large vessel (think star trek, wall mounted computers that can give directions)
  • Radar / Identification systems (this post)
  • News systems (connected information from the fleet or external sources) e.g. the sort of information my org would serve up https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/alioth-media-group

I'm am sure there will be tons more stuff that would come up but the key is in the implementation of the blueprinting system IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huh, good question. If you can scan for ships tho - what happens to my ship when I'm offline? As it's part of the consistent world it will probably remain in space - but can players attack constructs of offline players? If yes: ugh, at least let me hide my ship somewhere. If not: there needs to be something to prevent combat-logging. Btw: cloaking device anyone? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, vertex said:

Huh, good question. If you can scan for ships tho - what happens to my ship when I'm offline? As it's part of the consistent world it will probably remain in space - but can players attack constructs of offline players? If yes: ugh, at least let me hide my ship somewhere. If not: there needs to be something to prevent combat-logging. Btw: cloaking device anyone? :lol:

Well the logout system works as such:

 

Very basics;

Player is in construct, he logs off.  When he logs in, it's wherever that construct currently is.

 

So the implication is that the constructs stay in world.  Should you be able to easily scan for offline ships?  No way.  Maybe to an extent, but my personal opinion is that you shouldn't be able to find someone's construct/ship unless you stumble upon it 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Hades said:

Well the logout system works as such:

 

Very basics;

Player is in construct, he logs off.  When he logs in, it's wherever that construct currently is.

 

So the implication is that the constructs stay in world.  Should you be able to easily scan for offline ships?  No way.  Maybe to an extent, but my personal opinion is that you shouldn't be able to find someone's construct/ship unless you stumble upon it 

Well i think the game offers some very good solutions to this, there will be big organisations so there will be just Organisation where you can Park your Ships and let them get protected for you, if you're not a port of an Large organisation i mean that the plan of the game to interact with different players. That's no single player or Co-op game. so now the ship and station should not Vanish when players log off players should always look that the constructs are protected while there off, every body need to be part of an organisation and be able protect them self.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Radar is already implemented, see latest dev diary. I hope they go for different radar systems/different mechanics (like tweak proposed, radar, radar, gravi and temperature). That would add a deep layer of ship building and you could build indivisible ships in radar/ladar but not in temperature

 

I'm drunk, ignore grammar xD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, TheLongWorm said:

Well i think the game offers some very good solutions to this, there will be big organisations so there will be just Organisation where you can Park your Ships and let them get protected for you, if you're not a port of an Large organisation i mean that the plan of the game to interact with different players. That's no single player or Co-op game. so now the ship and station should not Vanish when players log off players should always look that the constructs are protected while there off, every body need to be part of an organisation and be able protect them self.

When a ship is powered down it stands to reason radar isn't as effective in finding it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Hades said:

When a ship is powered down it stands to reason radar isn't as effective in finding it.

Depends. We saw a cross section in some devblog, and radar doesn't need the other ship to be powered. 

 

If there were multiple and specialized systems you still could find such a ship. Which would add to the game imho

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lethys said:

Radar is already implemented, see latest dev diary.

Please, could you provide a link? I'm scanning through the content at devblog.dualthegame.com but I seem to miss that bit of information. I found this article about LUA and distributed processing units, where radar is addressed as an example - but nothing in the latest dev diary. Am I just blind or am I looking in the wrong place perchance? :huh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, vertex said:

Please, could you provide a link? I'm scanning through the content at devblog.dualthegame.com but I seem to miss that bit of information. I found this article about LUA and distributed processing units, where radar is addressed as an example - but nothing in the latest dev diary. Am I just blind or am I looking in the wrong place perchance? :huh:

Q it's just in the August devdiary as artwork but I concluded they already have mechanics rdy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just stumbled upon the cloaking question in an interview: https://youtu.be/supFNqs-IpA?t=43m11s

 

 

Sound quality is very very bad tho - almost inaudible - but as I catched it JC said that cloaking is one of the obvious features that should to be in the game at some point - but if it will be in at release... uuh ääh humm... ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, vertex said:

Just stumbled upon the cloaking question in an interview: https://youtu.be/supFNqs-IpA?t=43m11s

 

 

Sound quality is very very bad tho - almost inaudible - but as I catched it JC said that cloaking is one of the obvious features that should to be in the game at some point - but if it will be in at release... uuh ääh humm... ;)

Yeahhh lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

A solution might be.... 

 

1) larger objects have a larger 'radius of discovery'.  For example a small frigate may only have a 20,000km radius around it. A planet might have a 1.1 au radius around it.

 

2) to be able to radar scan an object your ship needs to be within an objects/ships  'radius of discovery'. This would allow relative safe logoffs in space provided you dont logoff in the middle of a transport route.

 

3) cloaked ships dramitically reduce their own area of discovery when cloak is active.... but turns off when player logs out (maybe with a 10 min delay to account for unwanted disconnects.)

 

Sound feasible?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have made this suggestion for stealth ships on every Stealth Tech thread - this is no exxception.

Have 4-way Signature on Constructs.

Heat Signature : LADAR detection, the more things you got running as well as propulsion intensity and active modules (shields) running ,a Heat Signature is generated. That can be picekd up passively

Gravitometric Signature : Gravitometers detect massive objects, your ship's mass decides how easy it is to be detected by them. Tjere is no counter to it, mass is mass and can't be cloaked.

Magnetometric Signature : The more magnetic your ship's materials are, the more easily it is to be detected. This is something NQ has already deomnstrated for minerining, scanning for minerals by reading magnetometric rangefindings. Counter to this is building your ship with non-magnetic materials, but the problem being those materials have not great durability against damage, like carbon nanotubes, good at absorbing radiation (energy damage and heat) but terrible against knietc projectiles and even worse agaisnt explosions.

Cross-section Signature : Traditional RADAR, your ship's shape dictates the sgianture. Based on real-life tech, a ship's shpae - along with materials used, can dicate how big the signature is. This is also something NQ demonstrated, with their Aerodynamic Profiles on the DevDiaries. They can rework them for RADAR.
 

Optional : Scan Resolution : Your range of being able to "see" a construct and see its design on a screen, not info, just the design of it. More Scan Resolution makes for better detection of objects at a distance. Bigger Signatures, better less Scan Resolution needed to be "lockled" to get a clear view of them. 

 


So your ship could be a 30 meter craft, with a varyign degree of sigantrure ranges, depending on your materials used.


So, a ship made out of Carbon Nanotube armor, is a very light , very stealthy ship, as Carbon Nanotubes can absorb 99.9965% of the EM spectrrum, making them bounce off little to no RADAR waves (RADAR works ona "ping pong" basis), as well as it shape makin it appear like a space debri, like 5 meters siganture radius for RADAR, then, its ,light weight makes it appear far lesss heavy, even if it should be 1000 times heavier if it was made out of Steel for example. As it's not made otu of Steel, it is impossible to see in magnetometers, and a few heat-sinks could make its heat signature be very abyssmally low.

You might have noticed something "where is my magical harry potter cloak". Nowhere. Stealth ships should be a real challenge for builders to compete in, with a high cost for their developement - carbon nanotubes arre not easy to mass produce, they are very very conductive and very very easily can short-circuit a factory due to that, and in DU, that could be simply that they take a long while to be made and are very limited in number per cycle of production.


You may say "how can we put so many detectors on one ship?", well, you don't need to, the Hubble Telescope can do all those things already, technically ,Hubble is not "telescope", it's a radioscope that picks up radiation, both heat and other wavelengths, as wel lbeign equipped with a gravitoemter - which proved a Back Hole exits i nthe center of our galaxy, as the gravitometers were expected to orientate to the Sun, yet all of them veered off to the direction of the galactic center.

So, in the future, a protable - yet not as efficent as a stationary - Hubble Telescope could be made. Gravitometers could be refined - they are essentailly gyroscopes that just tilt to mass - and DU's future could only need one RADAR Unit to make this happen.

Anything else is on player experience, i.e. seeing an object near an asteroid belt, then bringing up its readouts and seeing "hey, this thing is just another rock"... but why is that rock changing places..." .

That is the kind of stealth we need, no magical harry potter cloaks from EVE Online or any "rouge" mechanics. That would also make patrolling asteroid belts on your territory as an alliance a legit thing, as pirates could park their metallic ship on an asteroid, then turn off their ship to remain "cold" and hidden, then when miners scan with Magnetometery they see "oh, only iron there, no detection of ships" and be ganked in the process.

In either case, NQ should make scanning a legit thing that needs player experience, not just "oh, here, ship, go kill it "detection". 

 

These mechanics I mentioned, could give birth to actual scout ships, ships that oeprate very far from an enemy station, remai nhidden in asteroid belts and use Extremely high Scan Resolutions to spy on the enemy.

This might seem "difficult" to people, well, nobody said DU is gonna be easy on any regard. Stealth should not be the go-to option for griefers.



P.S. : Many people wonder "why do pirates lurk in asteroid belts always", this is why. MEtallic Object, hidden on an iron asteroid with engines off == macouflage.

They say you can't hide in space, that's obviously not 100% true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

That is the kind of stealth we need, no magical harry potter cloaks from EVE Online or any "rouge" mechanics. That would also make patrolling asteroid belts on your territory as an alliance a legit thing, as pirates could park their metallic ship on an asteroid, then turn off their ship to remain "cold" and hidden, then when miners scan with Magnetometery they see "oh, only iron there, no detection of ships" and be ganked in the process.

Ok, I have to ask.  I have seen you say rouge mechanics in several different posts now.  I originally thought you were just misspelling rogue, but I have to assume you wouldn't do that this many times.  What is a rouge mechanic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Felonu said:

Ok, I have to ask.  I have seen you say rouge mechanics in several different posts now.  I originally thought you were just misspelling rogue, but I have to assume you wouldn't do that this many times.  What is a rouge mechanic?

"rouge" is a meme for less than bright individuals who role a rogue in MMOs cause of the non-existant skill requirement to kuill people./

It originates in WoW. "Rouge" mechanics are :

1) Magical harry potter invisibity.
2) The unique agbility of knowing how locks work.
3) The Unique blessed skill of pickpocketing.
4) The Uniquee knowledge of how knives work and how stabbing a perso no nthhe back is tactically sound move.
5) The unique knowledge of how trap dismantling functions.

and my favourite :

6) You are the only one who knows how poisons happen, regardless of the fact Alchemy is a profession.

Those are "Rouge" mechanics. No skill requreiement for all the utility. EVE suffers from the same problem albeit in less of a form, in the form of Stealth Bobmers.

DPS of a battleship with a carry potter cloak. They see you, you die, especially on Wormholes, were the infamous EVE Local C hat is non-existant, so pyou can't know if preople are nearby in stealth.

DU is like that, we won't have a list of people who are in proximity with us displayed - if it sounds stuipid its because Local Chat is stupid in EVE. Having the cloak module is a sure way of :

"Build Battleship, put Cloak of Skill on it, become invisible".

You msay say "but NQ could hinder that". How? By adding arbitrary rules? Sandbox is the name of the game, not Theme Park to hae rules left right and center to coutner that.

EVE has made up lore rules for why not all ships can use the Cov-Ops ("rouge" stealth) Module, only certain shisp can use it, but ANYT ship can use the Prototype Claok Module. What's the difference, the Cov-Ops Cloak is allowing you to warp in it, the Prototype Cloak must be turend off first to get to Warp.,

Now, take DU as the example - no ship classes to be seen, so NQ would have to do what to hinder me from cloaking a 2000 meters length ship. Nothing, that's what. They'd piss off all the people who are drawn to that kind of terrible mechanics.

Also, the mechanic I explained can be added for stealth on buildings , like Static Constructs. Same mechanics, use brains, build a base with non metallic materials - like concrete or - hey - sand, especially on a sand planet, to confuse enemy sensors. Put Heat Sinks to reduce the activeity of the base itself to belnd in with - possible -  underground heat - whch can be added easily in ithe form of lava-rivers or what-not. Radar doesn't really matter for undergorund baes, and mass detection on a plaent is like trying to deduce your piss in the sewer.

See? There far more skillful and involving ways of stealth than "rouge" mechanics of "press one button invisibility".


P.S. : You missed the quotes around "rouge" every time I write it down, it means it's insinuating something, that something being brain dead mechanics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

DU is like that, we won't have a list of people who are in proximity with us displayed - if it sounds stuipid its because Local Chat is stupid in EVE. Having the cloak module is a sure way of :

"Build Battleship, put Cloak of Skill on it, become invisible".

You msay say "but NQ could hinder that". How? By adding arbitrary rules? Sandbox is the name of the game, not Theme Park to hae rules left right and center to coutner that.

Also, the mechanic I explained can be added for stealth on buildings , like Static Constructs. Same mechanics, use brains, build a base with non metallic materials - like concrete or - hey - sand, especially on a sand planet, to confuse enemy sensors. Put Heat Sinks to reduce the activeity of the base itself to belnd in with - possible -  underground heat - whch can be added easily in ithe form of lava-rivers or what-not. Radar doesn't really matter for undergorund baes, and mass detection on a plaent is like trying to deduce your piss in the sewer.

P.S. : You missed the quotes around "rouge" every time I write it down, it means it's insinuating something, that something being brain dead mechanics.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if this type of cloaking is what they go with.  Not that there could be more realistic ways to handle the cloaking, but when all is said and done the outcome is the same. 

 

If someone built their ship with proper heat, radiation, and visual camouflage and with ceramic/plastic exteriors, then they would have the same benefits as the person with what you call magical harry potter cloak.

 

Your system you are talking about adds a bunch of complexity on the engine side of assigning different materials different values of shielding of several different types, and using physics to determine how the external shielding would affect the signatures, and several other complex systems for what basically has the same affect as put a cloaking device on the ship.

 

I know your reaction to this is likely to be a reiteration of what you said, and call me names imagining that I don't understand you, or grandstanding by saying this would "ruin" the game.  Hopefully others with cooler heads will realize that I'm stating my opinion, because none of know what this mechanic will look like yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Felonu said:

I actually wouldn't be surprised if this type of cloaking is what they go with.  Not that there could be more realistic ways to handle the cloaking, but when all is said and done the outcome is the same. 

 

If someone built their ship with proper heat, radiation, and visual camouflage and with ceramic/plastic exteriors, then they would have the same benefits as the person with what you call magical harry potter cloak.

 

Your system you are talking about adds a bunch of complexity on the engine side of assigning different materials different values of shielding of several different types, and using physics to determine how the external shielding would affect the signatures, and several other complex systems for what basically has the same affect as put a cloaking device on the ship.

 

I know your reaction to this is likely to be a reiteration of what you said, and call me names imagining that I don't understand you, or grandstanding by saying this would "ruin" the game.  Hopefully others with cooler heads will realize that I'm stating my opinion, because none of know what this mechanic will look like yet.

How does it add complexity?

Two of those mechanics (magnetometry and RADAR) have already their basic code added.Magnetometry for mining and RADAR is retrofitted aerodynamic profiles.

The signature is affected once, when the construct is made, it's a value behind the scens,. Heat is just an active component, you turn it on, itr reudces the heat siganture by XYZ amount.

Are you throwing words just for the sake of words at this point? You don't do any calculations on your end, your client only redners.

If you mean "it'll teka work to be implemented" then "no shit?" is my reply. What "engine" complexity are yo utalking about really? Dividing Siganture by Scan rEsoultion as values and getting an approximation of a "readout" ??

Are you meaning to tell me, they got the algorithms to make dynamic server clustering, but failed at CSD freshman  mathematics?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I think the difference between CaptainTwerkmotor's idea and the classic cloak is the range. Classic works at all distances till you crash with the ship. A dynamic resolution would make a bigger difference in distance, so you could cloak for short range or just long range sensors. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

How does it add complexity?

Two of those mechanics (magnetometry and RADAR) have already their basic code added.Magnetometry for mining and RADAR is retrofitted aerodynamic profiles.

The signature is affected once, when the construct is made, it's a value behind the scens,. Heat is just an active component, you turn it on, itr reudces the heat siganture by XYZ amount.

Are you throwing words just for the sake of words at this point? You don't do any calculations on your end, your client only redners.

If you mean "it'll teka work to be implemented" then "no shit?" is my reply. What "engine" complexity are yo utalking about really? Dividing Siganture by Scan rEsoultion as values and getting an approximation of a "readout" ??

Are you meaning to tell me, they got the algorithms to make dynamic server clustering, but failed at CSD freshman  mathematics?

I'm saying NQ would have to add complexity to the system, to make it work for virtually no real difference.  I also didn't imply a preference either way, I was just saying that I doubt the cost/benefit analysis on this would make it worthwhile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Felonu said:

I'm saying NQ would have to add complexity to the system, to make it work for virtually no real difference.  I also didn't imply a preference either way, I was just saying that I doubt the cost/benefit analysis on this would make it worthwhile.

Yes, and lucky for us, NQ has most of the real minerals (the ones on the periodic table) added in-game, as JC said on his AMA at GDC 2017.  They can easily add a library for "mass" and then do the math of each material and how much a single voxel of - let's say - high carbon steel weighs. Then, they can break down minerals into Groups - the Periodic Table kind of Groups - and assign them a tier'd appraoch of stats that way.

You may think that sounds hard, and truth be told, nobody said Video Game developers sit on their asses. A shit-ton of math is involved to get those games out - unless yo uare Sean Murray, cause math at that point is a fake science and hype is the only thing that matters, NMS physics calculations have the same scientific accuracy as a cartoon or Iron Man 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lethys said:

And as we saw in the devdiary: there's a "cross section" in that building widget - plus radar art. so who knows what they're up to

Indeed, they could have cross-section be reduced depending on shape and paintjob and materials mitigating enemy Scan resolution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...