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This thread is to discuss the methods of transporting things to and from a market by someone who is not the owner of said object.

We know that certain objects and small-ish constructs can be kept in storage units, but constructs of a certain size will not fit, and therefore must be shipped differently.

 

The questions I have regard how I as a transporter/market owner have to operate.

 

1. Will there be some kind of "permission code" that will allow me to remove items from a storage unit, but not use them?

 

2. If so, do I have to place the item in my inventory, and then transfer it to my cargo ship's storage unit? Or will there be a way to move it directly from the static storage unit to the ship, and vice-versa?

 

3. If there is a way to do that, does the ship have to be in close proximity to the storage unit? If it does, then I think this will create endless headache for markets, since they would have to build all of their storage units next to the ship landing pads.

Plus, if more than one item from a particular container needs to be transported, and two different people have to access the unit, it could bottleneck since only one could be on that landing pad at one time. Or if someone bought items from two seperate units, they would have to run around to different landing pads.

What would work out best would be some kind of physical "pipeline" that ships can connect to. When an item is transferred to a ship, it is sent down the pipeline to the intended vessel, and into it's on-board storage unit. The ship could be parked quite a distance from the market storage unit and still have access to the storage.

 

4. What about ships? How will a ship be delivered unless the transporter is given essentially owner-level control in order to fly it to the purchaser?

What I would like to see for this one is some kind of "lifter drones" made up of boosters and a power source that attach to various locations on the ship to be transported, then you attach the pilot craft on top. The drones all sync with the pilot craft, and actually transport the ship without ever having access to the ship's systems. Once the ship is safely delivered, the drones attach to the pilot craft, kind of a "modular" spaceship in a way.

Yes, this could be used to steal ships too, but maybe there will have to be some kind of "docking permissions code" that is enforced by the ship shields. That way only authorized vessels could dock with the ship. (hypothetically)

 

So, what do you think? How should/will NQ deal with these obstacles for transporting goods?

 

 

If this has been covered already, please just point me in the right direction, but I couldn't seem to find anything about this specifically.

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Much of what you're asking about will be handled through the Rights & Duties Management System. Check out this devblog if you haven't read it. 

 

Essentially, when you buy something from a market, you will be able to designate a 3rd party to interact with the market and access the goods you purchased. What UI will this be done through? No one knows. But the system is there.

 

I believe the system can be specific enough as to limit the ability of the 3rd party to only pick up the item, put it in their ship, and drop it off at the buyer's specified location. The 3rd party carrier will not be able to sell the item or trade it to someone else, for instance. 

 

I don't think anyone can speak to exactly how this would work in-game, in terms of what proximity the ship needs to be from the container. Presumably, the radius will be enough to where landing won't be a huge concern.

 

Remember though--ships aren't going to come right away. The first markets won't even have ships in mind. Maybe they will require market owners to invest in the infrastructure of the market, creating landing pads and ample room for their customers. 

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Like Schoff said, they have indicated that the RDMS will allow for people to interact with/transport items they don't necessarily own. 

 

I predict that this will mostly be used by logistics divisions of large organizations or by a few specialized freight companies. I imagine it will generally be easier/cheaper for the average person to just transport their own goods, rather than having it shipped (depending on the location and cargo, of course).

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Thanks for the replies guys! I will check out that blog as soon as I get back from vacation on Tuesday, but it is good to know at least some of this has been thought out already!

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I was thinking about this briefly. Maybe there could be a shipping container system? A large element to fit onto large transport ships that can pick up containers which are also elements for ships and other large constructs that are loaded by the customer. They put the stuff inside and the delivery guy transports it. I imagine it looking like thunderbird two kind of thing. There was Somone talking about starting a train business (love that idea), maybe that could be a similar system. Just an idea I haven't thought about the mechanics of this but food for thought

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I was thinking about this briefly. Maybe there could be a shipping container system? A large element to fit onto large transport ships that can pick up containers which are also elements for ships and other large constructs that are loaded by the customer. They put the stuff inside and the delivery guy transports it. I imagine it looking like thunderbird two kind of thing. There was Somone talking about starting a train business (love that idea), maybe that could be a similar system. Just an idea I haven't thought about the mechanics of this but food for thought

What you have described seems like a good idea. It opens the door for player-offline transactions as well.

Example: Player A wants to sell a container of iron ore, and also buys some ship parts he wants delivered, but the transport pilot (Player B ) is offline. He could simply put his order for the ore pickup and parts dropoff in, along with the payment.

Even if Player A logs off, his order remains on the delivery docket. As soon as Player B logs on, he will check the docket, organize his route, and perform the pickups/dropoffs that were ordered.

 

The only problem I see is the amount of space that could potentially be taken by partially-filled containers. Consolidating all of the items into on-board storage units would be much more efficient, since there would be little to no wasted space, which means fewer trips to complete deliveries, which means less time spent, which means less fuel, which means....

 

On the flip-side, the player receiving the delivery would need a unit of their own to accept the shipment. Maybe some kind of "collapsible" storage units will be possible. They would fold up into relatively small packages, thereby taking up a limited amount of cargo space, but would open into temporary storage containers. That way, even if the player who is receiving the items doesn't have a storage unit, you can still deliver the goods and just add a charge for the storage unit that you dropped off with the order.

 

Also, thanks for the link Schoff, that does answer several of the questions I had!

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I think everything including large ships should be able to be placed in some sort of cargo container.  They can come in multiple sizes... Nesting smaller ones into larger ones should be possible as well.

 

 

I envision a large shipping company where one persons role in the Org is to just comb through quest/job/contract listings looking for requests to move a thing... accepting it on the organizations behalf and then dispatching someone in the pickup area to pick it up.

 

Pick up person gets the items... ideally already in a box that they can't open.  They should then be able to label it in some way... Putting it in another box... some sort of digital tag they can attach... something like that.  They bring it to the local Org warehouse.

 

Where the load master person sorts it into the right cargo container to go on the next cargo flight to the destination planet.

 

Freighter pilot just takes the cargo container to the destination warehouse.

 

Unloaded and given to the locals there to make final delivery.

 

6 people involved including the second load master at destination. 

 

 

I'm hopeful for something like in Cowboy Bebop... where the "space truck" is just the front bit and you can attach a chain of cargo containers behind it. 

 

 

 

 

But I think such shipping companies only make sense when we've expanded to other planets at a minimum and more likely when we have expanded to other star systems... when travel times are measured in hours...

 

I've been thinking about early game... when we're all on one or two planets... having a mobile market.  A ship with a central corridor where market terminals can be set up for a fee... and then the flanks can be landing pads for people who come up to drop off or pickup goods they've purchased.

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I think everything including large ships should be able to be placed in some sort of cargo container. They can come in multiple sizes... Nesting smaller ones into larger ones should be possible as well.

The nesting doll technique could be interesting and I see no reason why you couldnt do that

 

But putting ships in containers isnt really going to work. Maybe there will be a container that can hold a 1 seat fighter ship, maybe. But since there is no theoretical limit on ship size you cant really design containers to transport ships. At some point you will get a ship that wont fit.

 

I've been thinking about transporting ships and I think you'll either have to fly it to the market. Or build a really large cargo ship.

 

I'm wondering how we will get those ships in the cargo space. You're going to need some good piloting skills. :P

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The nesting doll technique could be interesting and I see no reason why you couldnt do that

 

But putting ships in containers isnt really going to work. Maybe there will be a container that can hold a 1 seat fighter ship, maybe. But since there is no theoretical limit on ship size you cant really design containers to transport ships. At some point you will get a ship that wont fit.

 

I've been thinking about transporting ships and I think you'll either have to fly it to the market. Or build a really large cargo ship.

 

I'm wondering how we will get those ships in the cargo space. You're going to need some good piloting skills. :P

 

I guess there would be an upper limit... But as for piloting skills... there's no collision damage.

 

They want to avoid people making their own missiles... so ramming things isn't going to be a thing... Unless they change their minds.  Which could happen but I think they're pretty firm about it.

 

I do expect there to be carrier type craft at some point... Depending on what style of interstellar travel they use... Large ships may be the only things that can make the trip... and so you could run a ferry service.

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I guess there would be an upper limit... But as for piloting skills... there's no collision damage.

I know there is no collision damage thanks.:)

 

I said piloting skills because you are going to want to fit as many ships as possible. Shipping logistics if you want.

 

You want to fly as little as possible with as much as possible.

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I think everything including large ships should be able to be placed in some sort of cargo container.  They can come in multiple sizes... Nesting smaller ones into larger ones should be possible as well.

What...How would you fit a large ship into a cargo container?  How does this even make sense?

 

I think having a cut off on what fits into a cargo container is a smart idea...the only difference between small/med/large sizes should be quantity.  Lets keep things reasonable...this isn't a magicians hat...only certain items of certain size are capable of fitting in a box.  The whole idea of a box in the first place is to carry numerous smaller objects...games cheat a bit and say well you can fit 100x metal plates and a gazillion other things and I think this is fine.  But we have to cut it at some point.  I think having the death star in a large cargo box or a Star ship Enterprise in a large cargo box is beyond that point.  

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actually I'm coming back to the cargo container idea...

 

Transporting ships in all their glory doesn't seem like a thing that will happen very often... if at all...

 

Why?  Because no one buys a ship fully constructed from the market.  You buy the schematic and enough materials to construct it.  All of which easily ships in cargo containers.

 

And if you do buy a ship off of someone... it would be a face to face trade type thing so the new owner is there to take possession and doesn't need any transport...

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I said piloting skills because you are going to want to fit as many ships as possible. Shipping logistics if you want.

You want to fly as little as possible with as much as possible.

How about virtual cargo mapping? You would need a scanner capable of producing a detailed 3-dimensional scan of a given object, including exact dimensions, (basically a rudimentary blueprint,) and a program that allows you to arrange said object in a virtual scan of your cargo bay.

Then, you use the schematic generated by this program as a "blueprint" to load the ship!

Maybe, if they incorporate tractor beams into the game, you could open the schematic in the beam-control program, and use it to tweak the position of the cargo as you load it to be sure it fits right. All verified by frequent cargo-bay scans that compare the cargo placement to the schematic.

 

Yes, this will still take piloting skills, but it could make the logistics of transport a little less of a headache. :)

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Yes, this will still take piloting skills, but it could make the logistics of transport a little less of a headache. :)

Ha, why not?

For now tractor beams are not "in" the game but I expect them at some point. Your blueprint loading could work but I think at first things would be very simple.

---

And I expect at some point people will move ships. You can mass produce them, some models will only be available on certain planets. Not everybody will want to travel just to buy a certain ship.

 

It always comes down to simple economics.

If there is a need someone will suply it if a profit can be made.

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As far as transporting a ship in a compact state...

 

Eve Online has a second market of sorts called Contracts where you could list a sort of "bundle" of items for sale on a single ticket.

 

So, say maybe in DU you can make a sale order for a single-use ship schematic plus all the materials required to build the ship, all buttoned up nice and neat inside a shipping container. Or multiple containers, depending on the material requirements of the ship.

 

Once the buyer has received his containers, he uses the schematic and constructs the ship using the supplied materials.

 

It's IKEA Ship Building!

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I like the "IKEA" idea, however I think you will have to have access to the right kind of machinery to make larger ships.  One could conceivably offer this as a service on a market hub, for a  fee of course, but that might be problematic when it comes to pirates and other unsavory types hoping to jump you and take your stuff after scouting who's building what in the public shipyard thing.

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I like the "IKEA" idea, however I think you will have to have access to the right kind of machinery to make larger ships.  One could conceivably offer this as a service on a market hub, for a  fee of course, but that might be problematic when it comes to pirates and other unsavory types hoping to jump you and take your stuff after scouting who's building what in the public shipyard thing.

 

I also like the "IKEA" concept, in fact it is one I was thinking of myself!

As far as pirates scouting out potential targets: if I understand you correctly, you are saying they will choose the weakest ship to target based on their observations of it being built. Or maybe that they will find weaknesses in a design because they can see it being built?

If that is what you meant, there are a couple ideas I should mention:

#1: You could just bring the materials to a "secured" shipyard for construction, where the ship and surrounding area are only accessible by you. This could be done by building individual hangars for each ship to be constructed in. This would of course be more expensive, but much safer.

#2: If the pirates are smart, they will simply purchase their own ship, and study its weaknesses as they construct it themselves. When they are done, they can then sell the ship for a profit, then steal it back because they know how to immobilize it/penetrate its defenses.

 

If I misunderstood you, I apologize in advance, but this sounds like what you are concerned about.

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actually I'm coming back to the cargo container idea...

 

Transporting ships in all their glory doesn't seem like a thing that will happen very often... if at all...

 

Why?  Because no one buys a ship fully constructed from the market.  You buy the schematic and enough materials to construct it.  All of which easily ships in cargo containers.

 

And if you do buy a ship off of someone... it would be a face to face trade type thing so the new owner is there to take possession and doesn't need any transport...

"

A good day to you, Fitorion. 

 

The developers did say that you if you buy an item, it's yours. Whether or not it is a ship in all its glory or a rock in all its humiliation, what's been bought by you is yours. 

 

However, you will have to retrieve it yourself--even if that means traversing a thousand systems. 

 

What you could do, is to authorise someone else to deliver it to you. Perhaps something like a delivery hangar that every character has if he/she is inside a trade zone. Move the object to the delivery hangar of the hauler through the interface. He/she approves the object entering the personal delivery hangar and transports it to your station.

 

What could be done is to put the concerned item in a "box" of sorts: the item simply becomes an object, having mass and value, but loses its functionality as long as it is not in the ownership of the right person. 

 

Should the hauler feel mischievous, he/she could jettison it in space and move on. Perhaps, a hacking mechanism could be implemented to gain unauthorised access to the "box". But, even if the thief does that, he/she would still have to override the RDMS assigned to each item--except of course, the creator of the concerned object forgot to do that.

"

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Pretty sure hauling would work the same as it does in eve where the hauler pays a certain amount to the value of the cargo they transporting which gets returned on delivery. So while they could decide not the deliver the goods they would just be doing themselves out of the money.

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In addition, they would hurt their reputation, which will be more valuable than anything they could steal.

A poor reputation = less delivery orders = less money.

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I belive in my opinion that to change the constructs rights to who can use it you have to be there, so if you buy it and youre in planet gortogortos and you bought the construct from alioth, you would not be able to change the rights from so far away, instead you either have to pick it up yourself, have a trusted friend do it, or otherwise risk thievery by hiring a third party to deliver it to you.

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I belive in my opinion that to change the constructs rights to who can use it you have to be there, so if you buy it and youre in planet gortogortos and you bought the construct from alioth, you would not be able to change the rights from so far away, instead you either have to pick it up yourself, have a trusted friend do it, or otherwise risk thievery by hiring a third party to deliver it to you.

They already said it will be that way

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Pretty sure hauling would work the same as it does in eve where the hauler pays a certain amount to the value of the cargo they transporting which gets returned on delivery. So while they could decide not the deliver the goods they would just be doing themselves out of the money.

"

This scenario will be the best; I believe--for the sake of the goods and the client. However, that would mean shutting out players with insufficient funds.

"

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On 28/11/2016 at 6:48 PM, Aetherios said:

"

This scenario will be the best; I believe--for the sake of the goods and the client. However, that would mean shutting out players with insufficient funds.

"

 

Well, naturally a day one player wouldn't be hauling something that is worth 100 hours game time. 

 

Generally, you would start small and move up to more expensive items. 

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Sorry if this has been suggested earlier in the thread, but I have an idea for item storage and protection.

 

You have the cargo container element, the thing in the real world*. You then have a 'package', a virtual entity that can contain as many 'items' as you want and has RDMS integration. Anyone with access to the cargo container the package is stored in can move the package to any connected cargo container that: 1) they also have access to and 2) has the right permissions to store the package. However, only people who have the proper authorisation can open the package** (dockworkers can move the package to specific containers, the owner can open it). Everything inside the package is treated as one item and only those with authorisation can see whats inside.

 

Packages might also improve performance, since you would be treating several items as one item.

 

I would also say that you can convert a construct into a package (it separates into it's component parts and a one-use, non-copy blueprint) through the use of a special element (shipyard?), however the volume the starship contains is used as the volume taken up by the package (you need bigger containers to carry bigger packages).

 

EDIT: * By real world I mean game world, the layers make things confusing

** Unless the package is hacked, but thats another story

Edited by mrjacobean
diffusing possible confusion

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