Pleione

NQ-Entropy:
"When we released schematics in 0.23, it was to address a problem that had the potential to adversely affect Dual Universe as an MMO. Players were able to be fully self-sufficient with ‘build-it-all’ factories, reducing interaction between players in the game’s economy."
 
I would like to point out three items that were both in the original, and the December 2019 Roadmap (the last one published I believe):
 

 

 
and
 

 
The first implies I should be able to craft everything I need for my bases and ships.  e.g.  If I wanted to invest the time, I should be able to build a factory that can create everything I need for my bases and ships - or perhaps, like I did pre-0.23, create multiple large core space stations that combined did what I needed.  I spent 1000s of hours doing that, often 12-14 hours a day.
 
The second:  note the "or even" - use of elements was primarily intended for me and my friends, with the market an option - not a requirement.
 
The third:  Oh, wait, that is now "post release" with NQ systems substituted.
 
If the problem was lack of interaction, then perhaps the focus should have been on eliminating the NQ markets and bots and evolve towards player run ones.  Not, as other have posted, "Go re-establish civilization - we have set up dozens of fully stocked marketplaces for you throughout the solar system and established a taxation system to ensure your loyalty dependance on us."
 
The current system does not meet any of the 3 stated game goals, nor match the lore that was advertised.  Go offline, re-design to meet the goals, and relaunch in a year or two.  Your current path is a death spiral.  Maybe spend some time monitoring other games, like Fractured Veil, and see how real customer interaction works. 
 
It wouldn't hurt to force all designers to read  Tynan Sylvester's "Designing Games" book and commit to the principles it contains.
 
 

Well, this is basically a ban on solo players running big factories (like me).
People will be able to make a small range of stuff on the side, but dedicated industry is dead.

I do not think this will lower market prices (on the contrary: material cost is already not in line with the price of higher tier items), but it will succeed in banning industry as an specialism.

Together with the (probable) upcoming wipe it kind of rules me out for coming back to the game because the industry is what I liked most since Alpha.

As a solo player I can say this... you took a system that worked fine (but took forever to build) and [filtered]ed it up with schematics, and with this change I don't feel like you are going back in the "fun" direction... feels like you are going further into what's wrong with the current system...
 
For a game about building stuff, you seem to love to put roadblocks in front of builders...
 
Edit: I just realized you are implementing the equivalent of microtransactions for schematics...

Consider yourself VERY lucky if they answer one of those...
 
I'd be happy with a firm date for when they will tell us the decision.  

Yes, NQ said that he wipe before beta start would be the last GLOBAL wipe. And I expect that to be the case..
 
Let's just take a moment and see what NQ referred to as a GLOBAL wipe:
The entire world is reset ALL constructs are deleted ALL claimed tiles are released ALL quanta is deleted ALL talent points accrued are deleted  
So basically, every starts from scratch, all progress over the (pre) Alpha period was removed and as I recall backers ONLY retained blueprints.
 
If you have the expectation NQ will not perform a wipe like this again, even when they NEVER excluded doing so, I can only agree that is fair. And that is the very reason why I find the post NQ made on the wipe so silly and pretty much laughable. NQ in reality CAN'T do another full wipe and not just because they said they would not (unless they absolutely had to), but because they have no charged people MONEY to access the game and things like talent points are a DIRECT result of that subscription.
 
 
Having said that, I am certain NQ will do a PARTIAL wipe prior to release. And in this wipe;
The entire world is reset ALL constructs are deleted ALL claimed tiles are released ALL quanta is deleted  
The crucial part here is that existing players will retain:
Talent points accrued, which will be returned to the pool while trained talents are in fact reset. Blueprints you have in any inventory are retained.  
 
Just these two items will provide a MASSIVE head start for existing players and will effectively retain the value of having paid a subscription during beta. They do NOT pose an unsurmountable barrier for new players coming in as a new player can have 2 million talent points to start with (by using a referral code AND activating 2FA) as we well as catch up to about 80% of 2 years of trained talents by existing players in about 5-6 months.
 
So not only allows this wipe for a reset of the world and economy, it created a fresh foundation for the game to grow and still allows existing players a considerable but not unfair head start. Add to that what I expect will be a period of 1 or 2 weeks where existing players get to be in game before the "official" release, these players will be able to set up a good number of new and "updated" constructs and build up the start of the world in game without the interference of rubble and junk all over.
 
Overall, I really do not see how that is bad in any way. It will be beneficial for everyone.
 
 

I have lurked here as a brand new newbie. What am I missing here? The game is in beta, ya'll subbed knowing it was alpha or beta. And beta most always get wiped before migration to production. This is true for most all software projects I have been involved with. Sure, time was spent building up and would be lost, but again it was beta and you had to know that right? At least, that's how I am approaching it. I am learning the game mechanics before release and would be a step ahead of others. And I am willing to pay sub for that advantage. 
 
As for DACs, if they were part of a contract with the initial round of cash supporters, then they deserve to do with them as they please. Without them there might not be a DU at all. They waited all this time for there investment to pay off. 
 
Lastly, who said life is fair and that an MMO should be fair?  As a dev, I like to eat and need revenue to do so. The larger my customer is, the lower the price they pay verses my smaller customers. Is that fair?  The more electricity I buy, the higher the price verses others, is that fair? The more money I make the higher tax percentage I pay. Is that fair? Life isn't fair, but is what ya make of it. But I would never expect an MMO funder/investor to be equal to me in an MMO. 
 
Just my newbie 2 cents and most likely way off base 🙂

And that was the great thing about DU ie. make your own game. But it did not fit the PvP crowd that wanted to play iteration 2364 of the same old game. And so DU is now slowly changing to something .. not DU.
 
And this is probably the biggest mistake NQ did early on. They had a great foundation for a more open world building focused MMO, but wanted to please everyone by doing everything. And we all know how easy (not) that is..

NQ has generally pushed away most sensible ideas and suggestions coming from the community based on it "being too difficult to implement," "not having time and/or resources", "not being a priority" and more such terms.

I'd agree that NQ has locked their feature set for what they call "release" and on top of that, the game's core is so bare and basic it has no room to accommodate anything innovative or radically different from what they are doing now. 

I have made quite a few fairly detailed suggestions over the years and certainly the last two year and as with many others, have really not seen anything that would tell me NQ ever really considered anything but their own ideas, even when they were shown that these would not work or would be too basic.


It's also very interesting to see NQ deflect ideas because "it would be a lot of work to make that happen" and then come out with new stuff that basically covers exactly what is needed for the original idea. Things like refueling ships at a base or even from another ship really should be possible with existing mechanics, transferring fuel from cargo/storage to fuel tanks should really not be hard to achieve. 

I've posted on power management with a solution which would not potentially solve several existing problems, it would allow for a good basis to expand the mechanic towards the future.
 
I posted on a better way to introduce schematics to the game loop(s)
 
I posted on better element deterioration mechanics
 
I've posted ideas on multicrew gameplay (construct mangement) options which, when discussed with NQ were deemed "interesting" but from that obviously never went anywhere.
 
 
Al of these ideas were posted early in beta and frankly, well before that.. and NQ really can't maintain the "no time" excuse on these IMO ..
 
I guess the point is that NQ has had ample time and opportunity to come to a pretty well rounded base game but instead opted to plough ahead and now end up with something extremely shallow and limited and effectively not all that much different from where they were three years ago, in fact they took a few massive steps back by removing core gameplay and replace it with a cheaper version that mostly plays in the UI and not in the game world itself at all.
 

Your an Alpha Patron and this surprises you?  <smile>

If NQ had gotten the player numbers they appear to have expected, enough to cover the proper completion of the base game feature set, and that player base would have created a game world which is needed for the game to function then sure.. 

At this point the player pop is extremely low while the game world is littered with junk and a good few of the remaining players are sitting on goods and funds in game which will allow them to practically just play in their own bubble, not in any way contributing to the game overall and that is bad for the game. the terrible way schematics were handled and the reluctance with which NQ has handled exploits have only stifled the game.

IMO the problem is not NQ doing a partial wipe or not, it is that NQ has failed to clearly communicate their intention from the get-go and has effectively just made thing worse by half-baked and vague comments which only fueled the discussion, not end it. NQ is not in control of the situation and is not doing anything to try and fix that. There never-ending culture of wanting to debate and consider things at length is really just working against them and the game.

The thing is that I believe NQ is playing  with words but fail to do so effectively.
 
At the start of beta, the few references they made to describe the wipe that "will not happen again unless it is an absolute requirement" was a full/global wipe. JC made a few mentions to that early on, but the informative/reference part fell of the wagon and NQ never stopped people spinning it into "NQ said a wipe (any wipe) will not ever happen again". That was not the first time they failed to both pick up on a problem and correct it by communicating clearly what was said and what it means, which allowed the speculation and misinformation to take hold.
 
Now, after two years, NQ actually ignored the initial message and dragged the very intent that never was into the argument in an official capacity through their blogpost, which obviously the just poured water directly onto the oil fire.

Most of us who are and have been expecting a wipe, never expected a full global wipe as that is not an option NQ has anymore really, not since they started charging people money to play and effectively soft launched into "beta".
 
Let's exclude the full wipe for a moment for that reason and see what's left; a partial wipe or no wipe. And the decision between those can't take months, that is just nonsense. So, following that it is fair to assume that the decision to wipe or not was made some time ago which actually does make sense.
 
Now, staying with that reasonable assumption the call has been made, which one is it? And here, again, there is one choice that makes sense as far as it not being announced and one which does not.
 
Not announcing a "no wipe" as soon as possible makes no sense here. That decision would not change anything, it would not create that much fuss even when a good few will not like it and voice that.
 
So, if you look at this objectively, there really is one possible choice, which is the partial wipe.
 
 
Now that we have our decision, the question is no longer IF, but just WHEN. NQ knows when they will "release" the game. Maybe not the exact date yet, but the month for sure. The discussion they may be having internally is probably about the moment for the wipe and what to do leading up to it and what the next steps between a wipe and "release" will be. And that is a discussion i can see taking some time as it would depend on a good few factors, some of which are probably still not entirely certain.
 
So yes, NQ will probably still be having internal discussions AROUND the wipe, but not ABOUT the wipe. They will do a partial wipe, I am certain.
 
 

I can't resist, sorry:  Perhaps they were with "...policy of being as transparent as possible and to keep everyone informed..." .

I'm pretty sure that poster was being sarcastic...  

NQ when will we have an answer? It’s been over six weeks since the original post where you said you’d discuss the wipe - and AvA and DACs.
 
It has also been almost 3 weeks since you shared your internal discussions. 

With NQs performance of Athena, I fear I have to suggest TWO wipes.  One to test the process, another, perhaps a month later, to actually implement.  Athena felt like early Alpha:
 
4/26 Athena outage - all good
4/26 30 minute "number of issues" restart, oops, taking longer, oops, one more thing to patch, ah, got it - territory resource pools reset, territory ownership issues resolved, market ownership in Haven fixed, quanta and inventory issue for older accounts fixed, but space radars still broke and shield generators funked.  None of these things showed up in PTS?
4/26 Another restart
4/26 Another 30 minute outage, oops, just kidding, going to take longer 
4/27 Another 30 minute outage
4/28 More bug fixed, hour outage, dot release
5/1 Login server issue (Really?  That basic code still isn't solid after 4+ years?)
5/1 Wow... login server is really borked.  No idea how to fix it (at least they were transparent and honest)
5/1 OK, 30 minute outage to fix login problems
5/2 More maintenance needed, will do tomorrow
5/3 30 minute maintenance complete
5/4 Another hour needed, will do tomorrow
 
This is the expected turmoil during an alpha cycle, without a PTS.  Anything like this after "The Big Restart" would be embarrassing (if not to NQ, at least to all the players trying to bring friends (back) online).
 
 
 

With NQs performance of Athena, I fear I have to suggest TWO wipes.  One to test the process, another, perhaps a month later, to actually implement.  Athena felt like early Alpha:
 
4/26 Athena outage - all good
4/26 30 minute "number of issues" restart, oops, taking longer, oops, one more thing to patch, ah, got it - territory resource pools reset, territory ownership issues resolved, market ownership in Haven fixed, quanta and inventory issue for older accounts fixed, but space radars still broke and shield generators funked.  None of these things showed up in PTS?
4/26 Another restart
4/26 Another 30 minute outage, oops, just kidding, going to take longer 
4/27 Another 30 minute outage
4/28 More bug fixed, hour outage, dot release
5/1 Login server issue (Really?  That basic code still isn't solid after 4+ years?)
5/1 Wow... login server is really borked.  No idea how to fix it (at least they were transparent and honest)
5/1 OK, 30 minute outage to fix login problems
5/2 More maintenance needed, will do tomorrow
5/3 30 minute maintenance complete
5/4 Another hour needed, will do tomorrow
 
This is the expected turmoil during an alpha cycle, without a PTS.  Anything like this after "The Big Restart" would be embarrassing (if not to NQ, at least to all the players trying to bring friends (back) online).
 
 
 

With NQs performance of Athena, I fear I have to suggest TWO wipes.  One to test the process, another, perhaps a month later, to actually implement.  Athena felt like early Alpha:
 
4/26 Athena outage - all good
4/26 30 minute "number of issues" restart, oops, taking longer, oops, one more thing to patch, ah, got it - territory resource pools reset, territory ownership issues resolved, market ownership in Haven fixed, quanta and inventory issue for older accounts fixed, but space radars still broke and shield generators funked.  None of these things showed up in PTS?
4/26 Another restart
4/26 Another 30 minute outage, oops, just kidding, going to take longer 
4/27 Another 30 minute outage
4/28 More bug fixed, hour outage, dot release
5/1 Login server issue (Really?  That basic code still isn't solid after 4+ years?)
5/1 Wow... login server is really borked.  No idea how to fix it (at least they were transparent and honest)
5/1 OK, 30 minute outage to fix login problems
5/2 More maintenance needed, will do tomorrow
5/3 30 minute maintenance complete
5/4 Another hour needed, will do tomorrow
 
This is the expected turmoil during an alpha cycle, without a PTS.  Anything like this after "The Big Restart" would be embarrassing (if not to NQ, at least to all the players trying to bring friends (back) online).
 
 
 

"You can only completely empty my tea cup if you leave the milk in it".
 

But seriously. I guess I will have to response each time someone makes the incorrect statement NQ said they would not wipe again as they never did.
 
There is ONE mention of "no wipe" and that is in a press release prior to beta. EVERY other comment or statement NQ has made as left a wipe of some kind firmly on the table. And so, let's take a step back and look at this.

NQ has a number of structural problems, one being communication. Not just a lack of it, but when they do they tend to be vague, confusing, and contradicting in many instances. It's anyone's guess why this is still the case, but it is.

The only logical explanation for the press release would be for NQ to ignore the talk in the community about a partial wipe and really only discuss another full/global wipe like they did prior to beta in that context without ever making that distinction clear. And seeing how NQ realistically soft-launched the game at that point by starting to take people's money through subscriptions is why another full wipe would not be an option. NQ can't erase the built-up benefits from paying a sub and the big one there is the talent points.

Experience in building, understanding of game mechanics, knowing how to fly, how to mine, whet the best way to prospect is and similar actions are all part of the experience gained while playing beta. These are a permanent advantage and benefit over new players. Talent point accrued in a passive training system like DU has are directly linked to the subscription being paid. And NQ simply can't take that away anymore. So, a full wipe is effectively no longer an option.

The discussion around another (partial) wipe has been raging on and off ever since beta started, actually before that as the day 1 exploit which insta-boosted the abilities for some to where they should only get to weeks from that point should have triggered another full wipe, and flared up several times.
 
There have been a number of major exploits and issues damaging the game over the beta period and NQ has all but left this untouched. Assuming for a moment that NQ did not just ignore it and purposely allowed players to enrich themselves beyond reason through exploits and mistakes, the only logical conclusion would be that NQ has ALWAYS planned to do a partial wipe closer to actual release and so choose to not rock the boat.
 
And I've mentioned this a few times, my expectation is that NQ will do a partial wipe where everything goes, players get blueprints for constructs they created (not the ones you bought or were gifted and are DRM locked to the creator) as well as their accrued talent point returned to the pool.

That wipe makes sense and it will happen an few weeks prior to the official "release" of the game at which time beta keys will also deactivate. Backers will then have an early start and NQ will probably offer a subscription package for several months to allow others to also have that start. This is just a logical and sensible business move.
 
The problem with al this is that NQ never clarified what I believe to be their intent to say a FULL/GLOBAL wipe would not happen again. Whether this is/was because they just do not see this oversight is a major cause for a lot of the debate or that they deliberately do not do it because of another problem they have, which is that they do not trust their community to be able to handle the truth and the actual intent they have for these kinds of things.

The biggest initiator of confusion, debate, discussion and arguments around DU is actually NQ in their, at times, hopelessly naive and borderline ignorant way of communicating with clear signs of a massive disconnect between what they think the community wants/needs and what is actually going on.
 

At this point many days after the initial post, I'm sure we could all agree that we would love NQ to make a decision. 
 

The lack of a clear choice on wipe/no-wipe is hurting more than any actual confirmed choice. But they still need the beta to go on because they need to test and release more stuff.

If they declare wipe then people stop really investing time in their projects and content creating until wipe/launch happens. Makes it hard to test newer features. Also all the negatives of that wipe.
 
If they declare no wipe you still got a mess of forgotten projects and people unhappy and unwilling to rejoin back in.

Other people have made their points before... but NQ needs to make a choice so the player base can make their choice.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me, I've just never really thought about it.  Alioth (and Sanctuary) became my least favorite places because of their gravity well.  Why make the starting planets the hardest to fly from???

I'm sensing a LOT of frustration from Blaze.  Believe he gained interest in the game in 2016 - 6 years ago now and still is not seeing many things originally promised.  Myself, I joined in early 2018, around the time one would take work vacation days to be able to play for 72 to 96 hours once a month or so.  Recall telling my wife "Have a great weekend, see you in a couple of days" when the first 48 hour test came out - and yeah, I played 32 of those 48 hours (with sometimes hourly server reboots, launching queues with 1000s of players, etc.). 
 
Blaze is VERY practical and has historically shown light on NQ finances he has scrapped together from public sources.  Like most things, dreams are great, but accomplishing those dreams cost money - something NQ doesn't have a lot of right now, so I think he is seeing things through those lenses - which is, well, realistic.  It is, after all, the FBI M.O. - follow the money, so as an approach is well founded.
 
I know for a fact (because I worked with him on a few efforts) that we have TRIED to help NQ, but JC in particular not only had a vision for the game, but had a specific vision for how the game should be played, and anything out side of that was simply ignored.  That made the game less and less a sandbox for many of us.  Just for perspective, in the early Alpha days, it was perfectly reasonable to have the goal of building a Stargate Universe class ship that could go around and build some future gate technology for use between solar systems.  That got nibbled away, piece by piece, often in thinly veiled excuses which translated to "current system eats too many resources, need to cut cost".
 
Personally almost choked on the first phrase of this thread.  NQ has been one of the LEAST transparent companies I've worked with in almost 50 years of gaming (started in 1975).  We love what DU started out as, and have watched that slowly be chipped away until its barely recognizable.  We have also tried, MANY MANY times, via Discord, via this forum, via tickets, via direct mail, etc. to help with suggestions, most often with little more than a "this suggestion will be forwarded" and no other word or action seen.  Sadly "this suggestion will be forwarded" is the most positive response personally seen - most of the time hours, days, and sometimes weeks of volunteer work behind suggestions were simply ignored.
 
Guess this is mostly a vent, but please do try to understand some of the history of our efforts.
 
edit:  Blaze posted his own reply above when I was typing this.

Thank you for the long awaited information. At the moment, I would like to see a decision very quickly, as this current state of affairs is hugely damaging to ambitions and causing resentment in the community. It's just not fun to log in and build something great under these conditions.

Sincerely appreciate you checking in and letting us know!  Any ETA on when a decision will be made?
 

I'm sensing a LOT of frustration from Blaze.  Believe he gained interest in the game in 2016 - 6 years ago now and still is not seeing many things originally promised.  Myself, I joined in early 2018, around the time one would take work vacation days to be able to play for 72 to 96 hours once a month or so.  Recall telling my wife "Have a great weekend, see you in a couple of days" when the first 48 hour test came out - and yeah, I played 32 of those 48 hours (with sometimes hourly server reboots, launching queues with 1000s of players, etc.). 
 
Blaze is VERY practical and has historically shown light on NQ finances he has scrapped together from public sources.  Like most things, dreams are great, but accomplishing those dreams cost money - something NQ doesn't have a lot of right now, so I think he is seeing things through those lenses - which is, well, realistic.  It is, after all, the FBI M.O. - follow the money, so as an approach is well founded.
 
I know for a fact (because I worked with him on a few efforts) that we have TRIED to help NQ, but JC in particular not only had a vision for the game, but had a specific vision for how the game should be played, and anything out side of that was simply ignored.  That made the game less and less a sandbox for many of us.  Just for perspective, in the early Alpha days, it was perfectly reasonable to have the goal of building a Stargate Universe class ship that could go around and build some future gate technology for use between solar systems.  That got nibbled away, piece by piece, often in thinly veiled excuses which translated to "current system eats too many resources, need to cut cost".
 
Personally almost choked on the first phrase of this thread.  NQ has been one of the LEAST transparent companies I've worked with in almost 50 years of gaming (started in 1975).  We love what DU started out as, and have watched that slowly be chipped away until its barely recognizable.  We have also tried, MANY MANY times, via Discord, via this forum, via tickets, via direct mail, etc. to help with suggestions, most often with little more than a "this suggestion will be forwarded" and no other word or action seen.  Sadly "this suggestion will be forwarded" is the most positive response personally seen - most of the time hours, days, and sometimes weeks of volunteer work behind suggestions were simply ignored.
 
Guess this is mostly a vent, but please do try to understand some of the history of our efforts.
 
edit:  Blaze posted his own reply above when I was typing this.