Wyndle

I was just looking at my Steam community list of games that I've played and there is a clear pattern.  My #1 played game at 445 hours is Robocraft.  I bring this up because I see DU's economy as breaking the PvP incentives for most.  What is the incentive for the new solo player to take the risk?  What is the incentive for the casual gamers in a loose knit org to seek out PvP gameplay?  The economy is getting in the way of the play part of the word gameplay.  I want to build ships that can challenge other builders to adapt.  I want to dabble in messing with metas, but I'm stuck doing chores to keep the millstone rolling.  What little equipment I have is far too precious to take unneeded risk with, much less to seek out combat intentionally.  
 
Perhaps it would help to put this in someone else's perspective:  
 

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I don't know if you realized, but you are actually proving the point you claim is incorrect.   The individual behind the screen who seeks out PvP in this game does so purely for a dopamine hit that an unwilling participant doesn't get.  We're all junkies and NQ is standing at the gate between the sandbox and the rest of the playground selling guns and smack (talk).  Every few weeks they cut the chain on a swing to watch kids cry.

You've got some serious delusions about non-PVP players that you think "check the problem from all angles" doesn't also apply to you. There are SOME who do as you say, making throw-away ships to slip in, mine a node and leave for massive profit; my friends have toyed with the idea, even, because of how you people force us to think about it just to get resources we need to build the stuff you think we've all got in spades. There are far more of us who CANNOT AFFORD TO DO PVP, and CANNOT GET ENOUGH PEOPLE TOGETHER TO DO IT. This isn't a full-time job, where everyone in an org is expected to always be online at the same time because they all live in the same time zone range. Scheduling time to go mining even inside the safe zone is rough for many orgs. If we're lucky, the people I hang with have only a few on at any given time because of work and time zones, and I know we're not the only ones.
 
For us, our mining ships aren't built the way they are "because we're lazy and don't want to defend ourselves," but because we CAN'T defend ourselves; we don't have the people, and without one of our guys running tons of missions with alts to get money fast (which shouldn't even be a thing, but neither should many other things that are), we wouldn't have the money AND ore resources to build even basic defenses...and if we did, PVPers would just do what PVPers do and work slightly harder for easy money.
 
See, for YOU, there's a reward to PVP. For EVERYONE ELSE, there is only risk, with no reward. You are out there (be honest with yourself, and us) hunting down ships that you then loot and fix, and try to sell back to the original owners. My feelings about that kind of behavior aside, you get all of the reward for almost zero risk. And yes, you people DO focus on ships that can't defend themselves. I don't know how many times I've been told that you guys tend to ignore ships that have guns. It's not about PVP, but easy loot. YOU may believe that it isn't, but it always was, with people wanting actual PVP fights with the actual threat of losing being the minority.
 
And that brings us to PVP for everyone else. There is no reward, only risk, which is why you don't see orgs dedicated to pirate hunting, doing escort missions, etc. There is no reward worth the massive amount of time wasted on the majority of the trip, or the resources spent on the ships to do it. We're not searching people to kill and loot to make up for the costs. We're not swimming in resources as you originally claimed, either. Many of your ships are just as throw-away as ours, just as minimally geared as ours, which is also why you lot tend to avoid fighting solo ships that run armed (maybe YOU don't, but a trend is a trend, so don't deny that "put a gun on your ship, even if there's no ammo" is legit advice to avoid PVP). For many of us, that's all we can really afford to lose if we want the game to be at all enjoyable. Because we do other things than PVP, and those other things cost.
 
And then there's the flight time. You've flown PVP space. You know how long trips can be between planets. You may not know that many of us miner-types don't go to asteroids to mine them for a few minutes before leaving to avoid you, but prefer to spend time eating the asteroids so we can use the ore to build better ships (you're geared towards PVP, so you focus on getting that. We're not, because we've got so many other things to do than just PVP). Do you SERIOUSLY think that REAL PEOPLE with REAL LIVES want to spend several hours watching their radar while twiddling their thumbs when they could be doing something more interesting? (For mining runs in PVP space, there's always got to be someone on the ship ready to flee because of what you're complaining about losing. Do you really think there are infinite numbers of us with nothing better to do?) "Just warp, then" isn't an option anymore because of the schematics time/costs...and because we don't have access to nearly the quantity of the necessary resources you seem to believe we've all got.
 
And how much do you think that kind of escort service is worth, that non-PVP players can easily afford it? Just how much do you think we ACTUALLY make from just existing? Again, without mission runners, the economy would be much weaker simply because the costs for making schematics, paying territory taxes, buying ore/parts, etc etc etc, is so high, and only the super-orgs would have any resources to speak of. Nearly ALL of the risk and cost is on the side of the non-PVPers. It's not because we're lazy or coddled. It's because there is ZERO REWARD for PVP for most of us; only risk. For you, it's almost all reward with very little risk, unless you have a rival org or are a loner...but as a loner in PVP, you still have far less risk than non-PVPers, and far more reward, and even with rivals, you still get your jollies by ganking us and funding your own efforts...meanwhile, those of us who aren't the minority you describe have to use throw-away ships just so we don't lose a month of progress.
 
You complain an awful lot about how PVPers are being wronged, meanwhile showing you have no understanding of what non-PVPers deal with. This game is a huge open world/solar system, where spending 2-8 hours of mindless travel isn't unheard-of, where not everyone is part of a super-org that can afford good ships that they can have spare personnel to defend at all times, where resources have to be split between multiple outlets (if you're a big org, you have many demands for spending that aren't PVP), and where the threat of losing a ship to PVP can be equivalent to a week or even a month of game time lost for people who can't play as a full-time job.
 
There's obviously a lot of work that needs to be put into the game to make its PVP better, but you seem to be laboring under the delusion that this is unique to DU. It isn't. This is a genre-wide problem, because you PVPers MAKE IT ONE. It's a problem in literally every MMO with piracy that I've ever played or heard of. When there is no real reward for fighting pirates (how do you think an economy like that would function? Have you ever actually thought about it beyond "well, people would pay taxes..."? Have you thought about WHO would do it beyond "well, PVPers would do it for money..."? I doubt you have), but plenty from being one, people stop wanting to bother with PVP...except for those whose entire purpose for playing is piracy. And again, be honest and admit that that's the vast majority of all PVP encounters. Not legit PVP, but as someone else said, PVE with extra steps. And then PVP becomes what it is in DU, just as in other games: a pirate's paradise, with almost no opposition besides other pirates, and when other opposition does show up, an enemy to rally the rest of the pirates to wipe out and discourage others from trying.
 
Rather than whining about how unfair it is for gankers who can't have easy marks with easy strategies for ganking, complain about the PVP system being massively unbalanced so that easy ganking is even a thing (yes, you probably believe that it's strategy-intensive, which is why you insult the rest of us as being dumb and not using our heads to avoid you), that there is no incentive for non-gankers to bother with PVP, that the system itself is garbage for various reasons (like line of sight not being necessary to shoot stuff), etc etc etc. Complain about the system that makes PVP so unbalanced in YOUR favor (the safe zones give us all a place to not deal with the craptastic system which, without the safe zones, would STILL favor you, because we're not pirates who drool over more piracy), not the people who don't have any interest in being target practice and breakable piggybanks for gankers.

Hey, that's not right.  They pick old people with medical and walking assistance devices 25% of the time regardless of skin color.
 
Edit:  Or was that just the TSA?

I honestly think NQ started out with a 100% focus on making DU and only that.
 
But as the years went on and the game continued to struggle, my bet is that the people behind the VC money told NQ to start looking for other means to make money. And I don't think it is a coincidence that JC left around the time this happened.
 
So in this scenario where DU is no longer the main focus, it also suddenly becomes more likely that the DU being keep alive as a 'tech demo' thing might also be true.
 
 
 

Later in NQ dev HQ;
 

Some people count travel time from their home planet.  So 2-4 hours travel and then 20 minutes search time is a reasonable estimate for direct travel.  Avoiding the pipes in getting to the rock may add up to double the travel time.

Frankly, I find the listed topics chilling and utterly dystopic.

1)  They are tracking how many thousands of individual MU timers?
 
2)  They are doing so to reduce server and DB load?
 
It isn't just us, the players, that are being hurt by the design choices.  Poor design isn't the only issue here.  The above questions clearly illustrate that NQ's apparent/stated goals do not match the actual results and MU nerfs are not alone in this. 

Some people count travel time from their home planet.  So 2-4 hours travel and then 20 minutes search time is a reasonable estimate for direct travel.  Avoiding the pipes in getting to the rock may add up to double the travel time.

Some people count travel time from their home planet.  So 2-4 hours travel and then 20 minutes search time is a reasonable estimate for direct travel.  Avoiding the pipes in getting to the rock may add up to double the travel time.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch on the asteroid changes, those may not work as intended.  I'm reserving judgement until I see it in game.  I had a spark of copium when I read that until others pointed out that the image NQ used for the next segment was a poorly photoshopped rip from a website talking about Elite: Dangerous.

Here is what the ChatGPT AI has to say when asked.
 

Compare the number of bytes in a timestamp to the number of bytes in a 0 or 1 (unitCalibrated), multiply that difference by the number of MU being used in game.  It my be a tiny difference but when you're shaving every coin already it seems counterproductive. 
 
Even Amazon owned properties are paying near full rate for AWS, though that is in part to protect their prices charged to external customers.  Amazon discounts are typically a [filtered]-for-tat; so what value would NQ/DU bring to the table to warrant a price break?
 
Edit: over simplistic auto-filter?  The original text is a legit, non-offensive term.

"So even if everything we are using as a model is considered distopic we must press forward to ensure it happens and our hand is on the wheel."  (Paraphrasing)

I was hoping on getting a percentage of the Ore cost back (25% or so).
 
Getting a random product back is a really terrible refund. After re-setting up my industry I always struggle to get the'old factory' products back into the productionline of my new factory.
Now I am getting random products back and it is becomming a day job to put them back into my production lines LOL. I rather delete them then then have another tedious job to do.
 
The recycling could have been:
- Industry recycler with input and output container
- Start recycling, takes some time ....
- Output is random ore (one or more ores that was required in the original production process) and then a percentage of the original value.
- Create talents on the industry time and output generated.
Then you can also start trading and selling broken elements as well to people who are talented recyclers :).
For scavangers this is a nice reward as well.

I have not been one for playing markets but I respect both the work you put into this and having clear data.  Thank you.

Pretty apparent by now that whomever made most of the mechanics in this game is long gone, and those that are left haven't a foggy idea how to work with the code they were left. 
 
These missions have been broken in some form or another for well over a year, and no matter what "fix" is used this mess just can't get remedied. 
 
Makes you wonder if it would have been easier to just start from the beginning and do it all over. At the pace things move around here it'll be 2030 before they can get this one buttoned down.

I seem to recall seeing something about having some difficulties with getting all the core blueprints.  I suggest you open a ticket if you have not already.

1)  The unique, non-stacking item caused by dynamic properties is the bigger issue that I thought recycling would address.  In a sense that is true and there will not be as much pressure to address the issue in the future, but please, please do not lose sight of this.  I recommend a filter toggle at the least but would prefer that damage not be handled the exact same as objects that have added data such as control elements with DRM scripts installed.  This could be as simple as having a different color or overlay for the icons.  I suspect you will start getting tickets to un-recycle elements due to this overlap, hopefully not an overwhelming amount.
 
2)  The returned items, while a vast improvement over nothing being returned, does not seem to be in line with expectations from anyone I have interacted with.  As the previous post suggests; receiving scrap would be a welcome improvement.  In my opinion it would be preferable to get a diminishing percentage of the entire pool of parts based on the number of remaining element lives.

I have not been one for playing markets but I respect both the work you put into this and having clear data.  Thank you.

The last couple of hours of extended forum down time set loose a band of dancing doubt demons for me.  Sure, we "whiners" (or so I've heard us called) balk at many things here but there have been improvements in the game that originated in the forums.  Not a lot, but... aw Hel, there's that one photon's worth of ray of hope again.  

It has been 2 months since DU launched and “Economy” by the Extraction Cartel is back up and running. The original market analysis from Beta has been updated for release and has some great new features.   You can find it at http://extractioncartel.com/ or this direct link to the analysis Macro Market View Micro Market by Market view Alioth Board of Trade (raw and refined materials) Item history and analysis Trade routes Real Estate brokerage service Player market service Base Build costs   I started and stopped this post 3 or 4 times as the future of the game seems to hang in the balance. Ultimately, I decided to release this tool to the general public for three reasons:   I’m a huge fan of what Dual Universe could be and I very much would like it to be successful The subtitle of Dual Universe is “THE SPACE MMO ENTIRELY BUILT AND DRIVEN BY PLAYERS”. While I do hope for more market tools from NQ, this is my contribution to the game. Information is power and I hope this tool helps players understand the market and engage in the broader player driven economy   To others who are working on similar market analysis tools, please feel free to reach out to me. I’m looking to collaborate and help deliver a high quality tool to the player base. I hope you find this tool valuable. There are undoubtedly mistakes so if you find one, let me know.   Email: extractioncartel@gmail.com In Game: Roustabout or MissFortune Discord: Roustabout    
 
 
 

But it is precisely what it needs.
 
NQ should adhere to the good old saying: The first step towards healing is admitting that you are sick.
 
 
 
 
 

Just checked (Nov. 25th, 2022 noon CST) the ore markets.  Average High sell price is now:
 
Bauxite - 3.38
Hematite - 4.25
Quartz - 2.04
Coal - 7.15
 
Somewhere around 7 is a line whereby a tile won't pay for itself without including calibration bonus ore, talents, and/or adjacency bonuses.
 
(Math:  400l/hr * 24 * 7 = 67,200l/week.  500,000/67,200 = 7.4)
 
Yeah, I know that calibration bonuses, talents, and adjacency bonuses all count, but one needs some profit to pay for schematics or buy parts with.
 
So basically no value in selling ore right now, unless you play games with the TU system, putting one down per planet, mining for the 3 free days, calibrating daily, then picking it up after a week and repeating.  Pretty sure that was not the plan.
 
This of course presumes one is interested in making more than their Haven /Sanctuary tile produces, and not interested in becoming a bulk space trader flying through PVP space to reach higher markets (which are falling as well - that is just a shrinking market margin game that won't last).
 
NQ?  Is this what you intended?