SirJohn85

So that I can summarise whether I have understood this correctly:
People are planning a battle event in the PvP zone with a Star Wars theme so that they do PvP, although it is only RP and not PvP. (However that is supposed to work. Do they miss on purpose or what is different in RP than in PvP?)
All of a sudden a band of pirates comes along who have made it their business to do PvP and get involved. Now the players complain that they were disturbed by another group because they could not do their RP battle in a PVP zone that is accessible to everyone.
 
Please tell me this is a bad joke.
 

It's a sorry state of the game when you have to plan, schedule and invite people to a PVP event ... "Emergent gameplay" my behind.

Wait, people pay money monthly for an mmorpg and get no technical support on weekends? What kind of service is that?

What can be and what will be remains to be seen. But that was not op's question in this survey, but what kind of game this is for me. And since I still had the vision 4 years ago of what they wanted to sell to the customer so that they would leave money, I evaluated and filled it out accordingly. I will probably be able to draw a first feedback with the territoral warfare.

I have ticked PvP.  Without that, you have no reason to build, capture or fight a material depletion battle.

Exactly - Let's replace the old playerbase with a new audience who had no expectations and no money to invest in the game when it was on Kickstarter and had a vision that it doesn't fulfil today that we used on Kickstarter several years ago.
 
Since they have the money of the old players, we can then start to ignore them, since they are no longer important because we have a new playerbase. It doesn't matter who made it possible for the investors to raise more money for this project. We made it clear to them with the business plan and the fundings that there was interest.
 
...
 
Sorry for the biting tone in my text. But instead of building the game that they have actually presented to the public, the players who have always left feedback for several years are to be replaced by new ones? 
 
How about instead trying to solve the problem for once and bring back the people who made the game possible in the first place? Community bonding or closeness to the community looks very different to me than what we have. 
 
Nevertheless, a big kudo to the community management team that has to read through a lot here. You are proof that a battle helmet is needed at the front.

 

Yeahhh... I like to hope that he listens to his devs.
But, that's not the gist that I get

In principle, they don't have to listen to the players - but it is somehow... Hypocritical if you offer it and don't do it in the end. This shows a lot about the company's mission statement and what I as a customer should think of this company.
 
Fun Fact: It is JC's first mmorpg and game. He comes from a scientific background, as he said himself several times in his videos.
 
 

Basically, it is not my job as a customer in the first place to have to explain to a company how they sell their products. On the other hand, I am happy when they let me participate in the process and I give my feedback and they celebrate me as a great, valued community member, because without me none of this would have been possible. (Yes, by the words "without me" this means everyone, but I am speaking for myself from a first-person perspective now.)
On the other hand, I have a problem when they reveal to me that I can give feedback, which is ignored in the end, I then play, the roadmap is changed in such a way that it no longer corresponds to the KS video, on which they have worked for 3 years and out of sudden stopped, for example (proof of this in their KS video from 2016 with timestamp: https://youtu.be/TyWZsuLmloo?t=446 ) and then quit because the feedback was not heared.
 
On the next point, you've got it wrong - KS people (and those who bought from the shop on the website the support packs) don't pay for a subscription for the beta.  (Here their last call for the supporter packs to buy - https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/19464-last-chance-to-get-a-supporter-pack-august-17/) The players have paid a tidy sum depending on the package (besides the energy and time spent) because they believe in the product and the company that implements it. I'm pretty sure quite a few of them just put up with it, but look at the product with one eye. After all, it hasn't been "officially" released yet. To give you an idea of the sums I'm talking about - here's a quick link:  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949863330/dual-universe-civilization-building-sci-fi-mmorpg
 
The developers of Ashes of Creation and Pantheon got these points right: players give feedback on something the companies show and also implement the suggestions for improvement. NQ can take a leaf out of these role models' book when it comes to transparent communication. 
 
And here you are wrong again. After a KS campaign has ended, the original text may no longer be changed on the KS page. This is explicitly stated by KS and the creators of these crowdfunding projects must adhere to it, otherwise they could face legal action. Chronicles of Elyria has shown how not to do it. (Source to CoE and class action lawsuit:  https://massivelyop.com/2020/07/07/chronicles-of-elyria-backers-have-now-hired-a-lawyer-to-file-a-class-action-suit/ )
 
IMPORTANT: Of course, they do NOT have to fulfil all this now, because the game is not officially released yet. But what I'm saying in the first place is that they can't just do what they want, they are bound by obligations. It's not that simple that you can write that in one sentence.
 
 
I cannot take subjective perception as generally valid objective facts. That's why I simply stick to the statement that since the 0.23 patch, the critical threads have increased significantly in this forum. That's all we can say without deviating from the facts.
 
0.23 was released without informing the community. The shock came as a surprise and caught many cold. 
 
The PvP revamp update "Territorial Warfare" is still to come, which is why I think many people, including myself, are looking at what they want to change. They cannot and must not afford a second fiasco like the one with 0.23. 
 
Please don't get me wrong. I am trying to explain what the problem is. I do realise that DU needs new players. But it must also be clear that the old players, who made the project possible in the first place, are already being driven away in the development phase, mind you. And that is a deficit that must not be allowed to continue. I know that it is not easy for either side. But the elephant in the room cannot be ignored.
 
Thank you for reading through carefully, should you have done so.
 
 

Long quote, trimmed it out but.  I understand that they have an obligation to release the game due to Kickstarter, and an obligation to vaguely include the concepts they claimed on the page.  They have done so, and will continue doing so, or face legal action (of course).  There is no obligation for these gamedevs to listen to non-gamedevs about how to make their game, though, just because those people paid money.  
 
Now I do understand the feeling that, NQ is not listening to anyone's feedback, for anything, ever.  Because they're totally not.  
But they're not obligated to, either.  They are gamedevs who assumedly have some experience in this field, those of us who are not MMO gamedevs need to extend a bit of trust.  If it's frustrating for a kickstarter backer, because something is not implemented the way they wanted, as long as it is implemented, then NQ has fulfilled their obligations.  
 
Hopping onto the kickstarter, beta, etc early doesn't make opinions about gamedev any more or less valid.  New players are just as useful for getting feedback, if not significantly moreso because they don't have a lot of hangups and old grudges about things NQ has done in the past.  
 
So yes, if we want this game to be good?  Ignore the old players who are just grumpy old men (I'm one of them most of the time), bring in new players, and see how they like it.  The old players in a beta are never going to be happy - an MMO is a huge investment of time and effort, and even a small change will mess something up or invalidate someone's efforts.  Eventually all of the old players will be salty about something, or will get bored, and that's that, and NQ is under no obligation to do what those cranky old men want when they start wishing for the good ole days where they didn't have to buy schematics. 
Any game, especially an MMO, needs a constant influx of new players to provide fresh feedback and to offset the number of players that finished or got bored with the game.  
 
Only thing is, I'm pretty sure NQ won't listen to new players either.  So, let's just hope they know what they're doing

Exactly - Let's replace the old playerbase with a new audience who had no expectations and no money to invest in the game when it was on Kickstarter and had a vision that it doesn't fulfil today that we used on Kickstarter several years ago.
 
Since they have the money of the old players, we can then start to ignore them, since they are no longer important because we have a new playerbase. It doesn't matter who made it possible for the investors to raise more money for this project. We made it clear to them with the business plan and the fundings that there was interest.
 
...
 
Sorry for the biting tone in my text. But instead of building the game that they have actually presented to the public, the players who have always left feedback for several years are to be replaced by new ones? 
 
How about instead trying to solve the problem for once and bring back the people who made the game possible in the first place? Community bonding or closeness to the community looks very different to me than what we have. 
 
Nevertheless, a big kudo to the community management team that has to read through a lot here. You are proof that a battle helmet is needed at the front.

 

What can be and what will be remains to be seen. But that was not op's question in this survey, but what kind of game this is for me. And since I still had the vision 4 years ago of what they wanted to sell to the customer so that they would leave money, I evaluated and filled it out accordingly. I will probably be able to draw a first feedback with the territoral warfare.

its the kind of game i dont play anymore .

I have nothing against a creative mode. But then the character should also stay in the real world. We have already had this topic. Look at the date.
 
 

Sandbox games encouraged you to be dependent on other players, as in UO and SWG. But you could be free to do as you pleased. You could pursue your activities without having to join mmorpg groups like in a theme park like in EQ or WoW. The old games had a gameloop. I like to use SWG as an example. Exploring the world always involved finding new resources so you could either sell them or use them yourself. As an artisan you could sell my goods because they knew I was a Master Armorsmith. You got in good with me to get the best prices. As a bounty hounter I had my craftsmen who supplied me with items. And I could hunt down players. After I exhaustedly did the work, I sought out the entertainers (not the macro users!) who chatted with me and entertained me. It was a great way to strike up a conversation and get well rested. And you met some new contacts and people invited you to join a player association in their own cities. (Yes, cities, not 5km towers that are only 1m thick like in DU!)
 
In WoW, I was a sought-after healer on the Horde side back then. Why do I know that? I logged in and I instantly had at least 10 messages from different people wanting me to heal. If you made a name for yourself, you were remembered. It always paid off to be part of a group in a theme park mmorpg because you had a sense of 'we' when you achieved something. Today, people don't really talk to each other or have become even more antisocial. Just queue random dungeons to prove the point and wipe on the first boss. People will leave the group and you get yelled at.
 
Theme park mmorpgs like WoW Vanilla were not hard. People just didn't know how to deal with mmorpgs at a "new" time with broad internet access back then in mid 2000. WoW Classic proves that 15 years later. It's not like the game has gotten harder, people just know the mechanics and get used to mmorpgs. (And yes, we can use the Naxxramas patch as a comparison, in case anyone wants to object that it's not the real experience).  I'm excited when Blizzard announces The Burning Crusade Classic this weekend (19th feb 2021). Even though it's not official yet, but that seems certain since WoW Classic brought them 3 times as many subs. Just think, the only WoW killer at the end was Classic itself...
Then it's no longer 40 men, but "only" 25. And I'm willing to bet that TBC will bring in more subscriptions than WoW Classic. Because people miss the old feeling, that new games cannot give them.  
 
And now we are standing here in DU with nothing. You're supposed to log in to mine, build something and then you ask yourself what for? To stroke your ego when you invite people to see what you've built? There was a reason Landmark flopped. This is in no way that DU reflects the vision from the Kickstarter campaign in its current state, 6 month after the soft launch. (Yes, I don't call it Beta because subscription and no wipe decision) And if I compare my experiences in mmorpgs, which I was allowed to take along since then 2001 in DAoC as a start, then I ask myself seriously who really sees a mmorpg here, which lives up to the spirit, in ANY form at all and does justice to the name sandbox mmorpg. As I wrote in another thread: We have, if anything, a nice tech demo that has no long-term motivation in its current state for the mmorpg market. 
NQ has made it so I won't support any crowdfunding platform as far as games are concerned. I am very angry with them about AvA and that they postponed it. Even more so with the lack of gameplay in its current state. I don't mourn the cost of the ruby founder title, but it's the bloody time and energy that went into it.
If for some reason, which I hope is not the case, NQ runs out of money, don't be surprised. You could see it coming. I said back in December 2019, when the podcast was published on YT, that the optional power system and the separation of AvA from the PvP package, and that the Lua code is opensource was a mistake. Do you know what the reaction was? People had their rose-coloured glasses on and ignored it. Even my memes about the missing AvA they found funny, but today they don't laugh anymore. "It is what it is" - But definitely not what they made us believe in 2016 in the KS campaign.
 
But to find a concluding paragraph again: I would wish today in 2021 that mmorpgs had the depth of previous sandbox mmorpg and yet respected my time up to a point. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but until then I'll look at the mmorpgs I find. Maybe someone will build something like that. But I wouldn't mind investing more time in it again.
 

Don't worry, I've got your back with the timestamp about power management which will be optional: 
 
 

Oh there is no doubt about that, its the direction development is taking that is of concern.
 
Just check the kickstarter page (if you can find it, none of the links I have found in this forum will go to it anymore).  it talks all about how solo players will be a thing.  Not only is that NOT true anymore, but even small orgs like mine can no longer compete.  Had they said, "join a giant org and be a billionaire  so you can rebuild civilization" or something along those lines, I would never have spent so much money to help fund this game. 
 
But I don't want to play "employees in space" or "space market" or "space miner".  Or whatever you want to call it.  It's not going in the direction we were promised either way. I wanted to run my own small org and set up a business. That was going rather well until we were priced out of the economy.

Sandbox games encouraged you to be dependent on other players, as in UO and SWG. But you could be free to do as you pleased. You could pursue your activities without having to join mmorpg groups like in a theme park like in EQ or WoW. The old games had a gameloop. I like to use SWG as an example. Exploring the world always involved finding new resources so you could either sell them or use them yourself. As an artisan you could sell my goods because they knew I was a Master Armorsmith. You got in good with me to get the best prices. As a bounty hounter I had my craftsmen who supplied me with items. And I could hunt down players. After I exhaustedly did the work, I sought out the entertainers (not the macro users!) who chatted with me and entertained me. It was a great way to strike up a conversation and get well rested. And you met some new contacts and people invited you to join a player association in their own cities. (Yes, cities, not 5km towers that are only 1m thick like in DU!)
 
In WoW, I was a sought-after healer on the Horde side back then. Why do I know that? I logged in and I instantly had at least 10 messages from different people wanting me to heal. If you made a name for yourself, you were remembered. It always paid off to be part of a group in a theme park mmorpg because you had a sense of 'we' when you achieved something. Today, people don't really talk to each other or have become even more antisocial. Just queue random dungeons to prove the point and wipe on the first boss. People will leave the group and you get yelled at.
 
Theme park mmorpgs like WoW Vanilla were not hard. People just didn't know how to deal with mmorpgs at a "new" time with broad internet access back then in mid 2000. WoW Classic proves that 15 years later. It's not like the game has gotten harder, people just know the mechanics and get used to mmorpgs. (And yes, we can use the Naxxramas patch as a comparison, in case anyone wants to object that it's not the real experience).  I'm excited when Blizzard announces The Burning Crusade Classic this weekend (19th feb 2021). Even though it's not official yet, but that seems certain since WoW Classic brought them 3 times as many subs. Just think, the only WoW killer at the end was Classic itself...
Then it's no longer 40 men, but "only" 25. And I'm willing to bet that TBC will bring in more subscriptions than WoW Classic. Because people miss the old feeling, that new games cannot give them.  
 
And now we are standing here in DU with nothing. You're supposed to log in to mine, build something and then you ask yourself what for? To stroke your ego when you invite people to see what you've built? There was a reason Landmark flopped. This is in no way that DU reflects the vision from the Kickstarter campaign in its current state, 6 month after the soft launch. (Yes, I don't call it Beta because subscription and no wipe decision) And if I compare my experiences in mmorpgs, which I was allowed to take along since then 2001 in DAoC as a start, then I ask myself seriously who really sees a mmorpg here, which lives up to the spirit, in ANY form at all and does justice to the name sandbox mmorpg. As I wrote in another thread: We have, if anything, a nice tech demo that has no long-term motivation in its current state for the mmorpg market. 
NQ has made it so I won't support any crowdfunding platform as far as games are concerned. I am very angry with them about AvA and that they postponed it. Even more so with the lack of gameplay in its current state. I don't mourn the cost of the ruby founder title, but it's the bloody time and energy that went into it.
If for some reason, which I hope is not the case, NQ runs out of money, don't be surprised. You could see it coming. I said back in December 2019, when the podcast was published on YT, that the optional power system and the separation of AvA from the PvP package, and that the Lua code is opensource was a mistake. Do you know what the reaction was? People had their rose-coloured glasses on and ignored it. Even my memes about the missing AvA they found funny, but today they don't laugh anymore. "It is what it is" - But definitely not what they made us believe in 2016 in the KS campaign.
 
But to find a concluding paragraph again: I would wish today in 2021 that mmorpgs had the depth of previous sandbox mmorpg and yet respected my time up to a point. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but until then I'll look at the mmorpgs I find. Maybe someone will build something like that. But I wouldn't mind investing more time in it again.
 

Basically what @joaocordeiro says. I agree 100%.
I will not join this discussion as op insults people, wanting to show constructive critics the way out, expects salt and in the same breath calls for being civil.
 
This is bait.
 
I couldn't help laughing.

If you're not more specific then those give ppl will do what I do:
No idea who you mean, so I'll just ignore it because nothing what you said applies to me. Moving on 

It's funny how individual cases are now being generalised and all are lumped together in the same pot.
Nevertheless, an apology was received and the matter is closed. There is no reason to ride the dead horse now. (especially since the data is also public)
 
 

Being that individual, yes it was not the right thing to do (and I apologized for it as I should) even when the criticism I have about NQ and some of their choices is very valid IMO.
 
Honestly, I would not say there is much toxicity in these forums at all, there is a lot of frustration and unhappiness, much for good reason. Many of us are invested in the game and NQ has not really shown to be capable of actually listening and taking the community concerns into account. It would be great if they did as it would allow the community to grow and it would build loyalty and commitment as well as ability to get passed mistakes.
 
But at the same time, it is their choice to make and as they  have choosen to mostly ignore the community concerns, they have lost a good number of (early) backers and continue to do so. This has brought hem to a point where they can no longer make choices based on what is best for the game but must do so based on what brings in the next round of subs to be able to keep the lights on. Going public on Beta was a big one on that front and it has not exactly had the result they were looking for I am sure.
 
Yes, the test server is a good step and I hope they actually use it and not just see it as a way to stop players from having concerns. How that pays out is yet to be determined. Otherwise, it will make little difference. The "results of NQ listening" you mentioned are not uncommon to us who have been here for a while and the pattern around them is pretty well established. As some of these happened well before you joined, I must expect you have no actual first hand experience with said events.
 
You are new around here so I'm sorry but you have at  best a rather limited understanding of what has happened over the past 3.5 years and so, while you are free and entitled to have an opinion, I can't put much weight on it in the context of the topic due to your lack of knowledge and experience in the community.
 
 

Basically what @joaocordeiro says. I agree 100%.
I will not join this discussion as op insults people, wanting to show constructive critics the way out, expects salt and in the same breath calls for being civil.
 
This is bait.
 
I couldn't help laughing.

I will tell you a story.

When I 1st join this community, several years ago,
I came to this forum and asked NQ for info about if NPCs where going to be a thing.
I specifically said I did not wanted anyone else but NQ to answer me.
Yet some ppl replied with their opinion or interpretation of the information available.
 
I was really upset that ppl did not respect my wish to see NQ answer it and flipped on some guy, an old timer.
The community all came to me and defended that guy, bashing me for my response to him.
 
At that time, full of selfishness and afraid that ppl would set me aside I said I was sorry and asked for forgiveness. At that time I did not meant it, I just wanted to contain the situation.
After I did this, all the other guys started to give me some links with the answer I wanted.
Later on that thread, NQ replied. The entire community was quite happy with the new info.
 
It was much later that I understood that that old timer, and the other guys there replied to me, breaking my request, because they wanted to help me. To give me a reply. To make me a part of the community.
 
Over the years I have had many debates with those same members from that day. Some times, i disagree with them, sometimes i agree with them.
Sometimes I don't even agree on how they frame their posts.
And I blame some of them for bad choices that NQ did.
 
But never again I doubted the love they had for this game and for this community.
 
 
You may not feel it now.
But if you are still a member of this community in 3 years, I guarantee you that you will regret your choices today. Just like I regret mine that day.

Basically what @joaocordeiro says. I agree 100%.
I will not join this discussion as op insults people, wanting to show constructive critics the way out, expects salt and in the same breath calls for being civil.
 
This is bait.
 
I couldn't help laughing.