Maxim Kammerer

Das sehe ich auch so. Als recht neuer Spieler (beta) komme ich mir direkt vor den Kopf gestoßen vor. Es ist schon sehr lange her, dass mir in einem Spiel / Beta bzw. Alpha so derbe vor dem Kopf gestoßen wurde. Diese unpopuläre Entscheidung wirkt so panisch getroffen, wie es die 08/15 "Führungskräfte" auf meiner Arbeitstätte regelmäßig fabrizieren. Das habe ich schon im RL und brauche dieses Verhalten ganz bestimmt nicht in meiner Freizeit. Das Vertrauen zu NQ ist jedenfalls hin. Ein solches Verhalten kenn ich eher von viel größeren Entwicklern oder Puplishern.
Die ganze Kommunikation zur Schema Änderung ist aber auch völlig an mir vorbeigegangen.

Natürlich verstehe ich, dass eine Anpassung der Wirtschaft nötig is, aber doch bitte nicht so stümperhaft wie in 0.23 umgesetzt. Warum macht NQ nicht aus der Not eine Tugend? Einen Beruf/Talentfeld schaffen, dass die Schematas herstellt!? Aber einfach von Bots abkaufen!? Das ist wirklich schwach umgesetzt. Zur Zeit kann man doch nur mit Minern (macht mir kein Spaß- ich machs nur weils nötig ist) und Handeln wirklich Geld verdienen, hier fehlt einfach noch was, gerade für kleinere Spielergruppen. Und ganz ehrlich wir hatten inzwischen sogar unseren Platz in der alten Wirtschaft gefunden, den man sich jetzt gegen die ganzen großen Orgas neu behaupten muss/darf/soll.
 
Ich habe DU als Spiel erlebt, indem ich meine Kreativität voll ausleben kann. Minecraft im Weltraum oder so, vielleicht auch mehr Legobaukasten. Die Ampitionen große Gesellschaften zu gründen ist Nobel und absolut interessant, ich spiele aber mit meinen paar Freunden lieber allein, unter uns, man kennt sich seit Jahren. Ich will mich auch nicht zwingen lassen in die Großen Gesellschaften eintreten. Wir haben uns deren Basen, Parlamente/Versammlungsstätten angeschaut. Wirklich beeindruckend der Roleplay Ansatz, für uns aber zu viel.
 
Und um auf das Selbstversorger Beispiel mal einzugehen, klar ich mache auch im RL nicht alles selbst, wir reden hier aber immernoch von einem virtuellen Spiel.

So nebenbei ein Gedanke. Das Alt/Alpha-Spieler einen extrem großen Vorteil des letzten Patches haben liegt klar auch der Hand. Darum auch die Aussagen das der Patch völlig OK sei. Sie haben das nötige Kleingeld (von Sicht eines Milliardärs)  dass sie sich die überteuerten Schematics kaufen können. Bei meiner Aussage hier geht es nicht um Geiz oder... buaahhh der hat so viel Kohle, mag auch.. . Nein es geht eher darum, dass neue Spieler die vor kurzem angefangen haben um das zigfache mehr leisten müssen und mehr Zeit in ein Spiel investieren müssen um auf den gleichen Stand zu kommen. Altspielern wurde doch das verdienen durch die Meganodes und/oder Riesen-Orgas das Geld nur so zugeschoben. Ist meine Ansicht als Neuspieler.  Zugleich obwohl es hier nur um Quanten geht und nicht um Real-Geld hat es den Eindruck von PayToWin durch Ingame-Währung.
 
Mir wäre hier lieber gewesen das Schematics durch Forschung erforscht werden würde. Zum Beispiel, die Start-Schmetics(T1) durch sammeln von Erz. T2-Schematics durch Parts(von T1) evtl. Barren... usw..  Wäre eine gute Ergänzung zum Spiel und wenn gut umgesetzt eine echte Langzeitmotivation.

 
 

Ich habe tatsächlich schon eigene Marmelade aus selbst geernteten Früchten gekocht und ein eigenes Boot und eigene Computer gebaut, obwohl es einfacher und billiger gewesen wäre alles fertig zu kaufen - einfach weil ich Spaß daran habe. Genauso gab es in DU Spieler, für die der Spaß darin bestand, dass sie alles selbst tun konnten. Tatsächlich ist das sogar der wesentliche Punkt in einem Sandbox-Spiel.
 
So ist es. Die Zeiten, in denen Fabriken millionenfach identische Produkte ausspucken, neigen sich dem Ende. Die Entwicklung geht ganz klar in Richtung einer flexiblen Produktion in der auf derselben Produktionsanlage unterschiedliche Produkte individuell nach Kundenwunsch hergestellt werden können. Vor dem Patch gab es Spieler, bei denen man auf Bestellung eine ganze Liste von verschiedenen Produkten herstellen lassen konnte (z.B. die Elemente für ein Konstrukt). Das ist jetzt nicht mehr möglich, weil sich die Investition in die vielen verschiedenen Schemata auf diese Weise nicht rentiert. Mit dem letzten Patch wird die Wirtschaft praktisch auf den Stand des 20. Jahrunderts zurück geworfen. Nach dem Willen von NQ sollen die komplexen Universalfabriken primitiven Produktionslinien weichen, die mit möglichst wenigen Schemata möglichst große Mengen desselben Endproduktes herstellen. Was für ein Spass!
 
Nein, es war nicht nötig - nicht in dieser Form und schon gar nicht zu diesem Zeitpunkt. Dass es offensichtlich Spieler gibt, für die sich nichts ändert, weil sie mit ihrer Wirtschaftskraft und Insiderinformationen rechtzeitig zig Milliarden Quanta für Schemata zurücklegen oder massenweise L-Kerne horten konnten, macht die Sache nur noch schlimmer. Das zementiert eine Aufspaltung in alte Spieler, die alles können und alles kontrollieren und neue Spieler denen nichts weiter übrig bleibt als stumpfsinnig ständig dasselbe zu tun. Wer will sowas? Wer schon einen Job im richtigen Leben hat,, der braucht keinen weiteren in einem Computerspiel für das er obendrein auch noch bezahlen muss.
 
JC legt ja immer besonderen Wert darauf, dass in dem Spiel eine Zivilisation aufgebaut werden soll. Wir werden sehen, wie das ohne Bevölkerung funktioniert.

In dieser Form ganz sicher nicht. Wenn man schon eine Spezialisierung auf verschiedene Industrien erzwingen will, dann geht das besser mit einem Technologiebaum den jeder Spieler für sich selbst entwickeln muss. Dafür hätte NQ sogar das bereits existierende Talente-System verwenden können. Beliebige Schematas einfach bei Bots zu kaufen ist wohl die einfallsloseste Umsetzung, die man sich vorstellen kann und es ist fraglich, ob das zum gewünschten Ziel führt. Diejenigen, die in der Vergangenheit universelle Megafabriken gebaut haben, werden das auch in Zukunft anstreben. Große Organisationen werden ganz sicher die Möglichkeit behalten, sich komplett selbst zu versorgen und die Märte mit Dumpingpreisen zu dominieren. Davon abgesehen ist die Entwicklung von Konstrukten ein Kernelement des Spiels und eine funktionierende Megafabrik gehört in dieser Disziplin zu den größten Herausforderungen. Die Änderung erstickt nicht nur den Markt, sondern auch die Krativität.
Und was erwartet uns, wenn NQ dann irgendwann verwundert feststellt, dass die meisten Spieler immer noch hauptsächlich Erze an Bots verkaufen, während ein paar wenige alles selbst herstellen? Erhalten die Schematas dann ein Verfallsdatum?
 
Aber das ist nur ein Problem mit diesem Patch. Die Märkte, deren Nutzung damit angeblich gefördert werden sollten, sind jetzt bis auf weiteres komplett ruiniert weil das gesamte im Umlauf befindliche Geld in Schematas fließt und alle verzichtbaren Waren zu Spottpreisen verramscht werden um irgendwie an Geld zu kommen. Und selbst wenn sich die Märkte davon wieder erholen, bleiben die Probleme, die dazu geführt haben, dass sie wenig genutzt werden, weiter bestehen. Das ist oft genug diskutiert worden und es gab zahlreiche Lösungsvorschläge die sich teilweise sehr einfach umsetzen lassen. Was NQ stattdessen implementiert, sind meisten Verschlimmbesserungen (z.B. neue Märkte mit denselben Problemen 2 km entfernt von Shuttles und Teleporten aufzubauen).
 
Noch schlimmer sieht es mit den Veränderungen zum Rechtemanagement aus. Der intensive Austausch zwischen den Spielern, den NQ auf den Märkten vermisst, hat auf anderem Gebiet längst stattgefunden - nämlich bei Konstrukten. Statische und dynamische Konstrukte wurden kooperativ von mehren Spielern aufgebaut und genutzt und zwischen Spielern gehandelt. Dabei wurden auch Konstrukte und Lua-Scripte von verschiedenen Spielern miteinander kombiniert. Das wurde mit dem letzten Patch komplett zerstört. Zuerst wurden bei bestehenden Blueprints alle Beschränkungen entfernt, so dass Konstrukte von anderen Spielern ohne deren Zustimmung reproduziert werden konnte und um diesen Fehler zu beheben wurden dann sowohl für Blueprints als auch für bestehende Konstrukte alle Beschränkungen gesetzt. Das führt dazu, dass Konstrukte nicht mehr gemeinsam genutzt werden können oder dass viele Spieler nicht einmal mehr ihre eigenen Lua-Scripte ändern können. Niemand weiß ob und wenn ja wann das wieder repariert werden kann.
 
Das lässt sich so noch eine Weile fortsetzen. NQ hat schon in der Vergangenheit fragwürdige Entscheidungen getroffen, aber mit einem einzigen Patch so viel Schaden anzurichten, ist eine neue Dimension.

Unfortunately, the current economy depends on this poison. The game urgently needs additional mecanics to generate cash. They are announced but nobody knows when they are coming and if they will be suitable to solve the problem. We are talking about NQ after all.
 
It would at least be possible to reduce the problem with the bots if they would generate orders with reasonable prices (depending on supply and demand and with proper balancing between buy and sell orders). However, JC would need to admit that this is beyond him and consult an enconomist. That's very unlikely.

With 150 kℏ daily reward as the only remaining sorce of money but schemas as a giant money sink? Goodbye economy. The bot orders must stay as long as there is no other way to inject cash into the game (which is not going to happen anytime soon). However, they urgently need to be balanced in order to make the markets working. But NQ is not able or willing to see that.

I have used the markets a good deal rather than saving up ℏ. A decent balance of making our own stuff and relying on the market. It has been a fun ride.

Also, as for endgame, people haven't even seen anything like an endgame yet...
Maybe in JCs mind, when the orgs have created an L ship that has got into space and can warp, that is endgame.

But I see end game being when people have built (and fleshed out) massive space stations tens of kilometres long, gleaming towers that reach the stratosphere, pushed voxelmancy to within inches of its life and created entire operating systems using LUA or at least frameworks and ecosystems for building modular drop in applications.

Sure progress has been fast but just look at how much effort people have put in.. Some have been mining for up to 15 hours a day to fund their (org's) dreams. Our own org members have already said at times this game has felt more like a second job.

Nowhere near endgame....

If they wanted to make a cooperating civilisation, they could make the upcoming system jump technology super duper expensive and have it needed to be built part by part, blueprint by blueprint and assembled in open space away from all the planets... say something like assembling 12 warp beacons and placing them on XL space cores arranged in a ring... It would cost hundreds of billions of ℏ and NQ would create some community events to build and protect the nascent technology from raiders and pirates, etc.  That would have brought the players together, much like the CGs (community goals) in ED regularly used to bring thousands of players to out of the way systems in the bubble and often on opposing teams.

Once the ring was complete, the destination system would be accessible. They could have in-lore reasons as to the whys and hows of it.

Yes, that's indeed a problem. Placing of blueprints should be improved - with or without a whipe.

The prices of high end items also affect new players, even when they do not build them themselves. The schemas must be purcheased with money and money can be generated by mining only (apart from the daily quantas, which are negligible compared to the price of the high end schemas). As most manufacturers of the high end items will not mine themselves to generate the money for schemas, somebody else need to do it for them. That will mainly be new players - either directly as org slaves or indirectly by selling to bots and than buying from players. For new players there is nothing to do than mining for many days or even weeks before they are able to start with something that is interesting or even fun. With such a first impression I would leave immediatley.

The prices of high end items also affect new players, even when they do not build them themselves. The schemas must be purcheased with money and money can be generated by mining only (apart from the daily quantas, which are negligible compared to the price of the high end schemas). As most manufacturers of the high end items will not mine themselves to generate the money for schemas, somebody else need to do it for them. That will mainly be new players - either directly as org slaves or indirectly by selling to bots and than buying from players. For new players there is nothing to do than mining for many days or even weeks before they are able to start with something that is interesting or even fun. With such a first impression I would leave immediatley.

While I'm sure he's an absolutely brilliant AI engineer, JC is utterly incompetent at game design.
 
With pvp as broken as it is, there were really only 3 attractions to the game: mining, industry, and building. There's a reason everyone was building their own giga factory. There's simply nothing else to do.
 
You could mine and sell ore then buy elements or mine and build your own industry. Most everyone opted for building their own industry because it's both easier and a more efficient use of time.
 
They noticed that markets weren't being used so instead of adding more content to allow players to do something other than mining and industry they simply took away industry. You can't immediately remove 50% of a game's content overnight and expect everyone to be happy. I'm honestly shocked that NQ/JC either didn't anticipate the backlash or simply didn't care.
 
What do we have now? Mine for ore, sell it,  then build stuff. There's literally nothing else in the game. No way to make money besides mining. This patch should have been deployed after implementing additional mechanics for making money. As it stands now, you mine to sell ore (at continuously dropping prices thanks to supply & demand) or you do... nothing.
 
I'm actually impressed. I haven't seen this kind of incompetence in game design since no man's sky and even that was arguably more fraud and deceit than incompetence.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

I’m a new player, I started about 2 months ago as a way to escape the drudgery of the current endless Covid lockdowns.
When I signed up for Dual Universe, I was inspired by the idea that I could take the game at my own pace and build a world for me, in the way that I wanted, that I could explore space and build amazing things.  I don’t class myself as a gamer, I’m not interested in PvP or combat, but I I love sci-fi, enjoy escapism and being able to create.
Your game seemed to have everything I wanted, and although some elements were a bit tedious – mining, unrelenting crashes whilst learning to fly and the subsequent repairs to name a couple, I persevered because I was progressing. It felt that possibility was always within my reach, I just needed to do a little bit more, work a little harder, and that’s what kept me reaching and growing.
This new patch has, in one stroke, removed all the joy, possibility, fun and scope for new players like me.  I don’t want to be part of an Organisation – I was sold the idea that ‘I could be anything I wanted to be’.  But that’s simply not true anymore.
I implore you NQ – PLEASE think about the experience for new players, this game had such possibily and was truly inspiring. I have absolutely loved playing it and even though I couldn’t compete, or wanted to, with the big orgs it was truly great to immerse myself in this world.
You’ve created a perfect storm for new players:
Building your first ship is now out of reach. Even if you manage to build one, core & component damage now means learning to fly a ship will be impossible. Travelling to and from markets is long and dull with your free speeder as there are no territories near any markets on Sanctuary with a shuttle. Even if you do want to spend ages trailing backwards and forwards, you cant carry much. Blueprints are ridiculously expensive, so now you cannot invest your money in industry to convert your ore into usable money, as all the lower price blueprints will produce products that will no doubt flood the market, have little value, and therefore have no profit. Assuming you can get off planet, you have hours of flying to reach anywhere with ore of any significance, assuming you make it there and back in one piece now warp drives are so utterly unreachable. I didn’t sign up to a space-mining, economics simulator game -  I wanted to engage with what was sold to me through all the marketing; and that’s certainly not hours of doing nothing interesting to get nowhere.
Unfortunately, you’ve made it utterly dull, with the potential for fun so far out of reach that its honestly not worth the time or money for me.
I really hope you fix this – it had huge potential, and I honestly cant remember a game I enjoyed as much as this, but I think you’ve just shut the doors on new players and shot yourselves in the foot.
I genuinely, genuinely hope you listen to everyone and you make a success of Dual Universe, it is (was) special, I’m just gutted its been ruined for me.
 

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

Survivorship bias.
 
I see the same thing on the official discord and reddit - the numbers are way down, a lot of the names I'm used to seeing are just gone. The two orgs I played with are dead, 60 players in one and 20 in another - and the discords are silent.
 
But hey the people who are still playing are OK with it...
 
Once again, my biggest issue with the changes is that they are putting up barriers and adding extreme levels of grind without adding any additional content.
 
JC keeps saying that industry isn't for everyone without grasping that the only reason everyone is doing industry is that industry is all there is to do. 
 
Raising the barrier to entry into industry will indeed make fewer people do industry - but there is nothing else to do. So what are they going to do? Same thing I'm doing - playing a different game.

There seems to be a basic misconception. You and the people you are playing with are not the community. You are part of the community. There (still) are a lot of other players with a different opinion and bad experiences in regard to NQ's "fixes". Get used to it.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

The problem is not just ignoring the player base but always trying to fix issues from the wrong end. This is just another example. NQ realized that players don't use the markets as much as expected (this is the good part). But instead of fixing the markets they are nerfing the industry (and maybe even mining if I read the previous posts correctly). That's an awful idea. Fixing the industry because the industry is broken would be OK. But it is actually is one of the very few working gameplay loops. Yes, there is a small chance that both, the industry and the markets will be saved. But it is more likely to lose both and in the result a lot of players. Good luck with civilisation-building without a population.

....and if it were - that would NOT be a good thing!
 
Alright, this is something that's been bothering me for some time from JCs interviews - and yesterday's Easter Egg interview pushed me over the edge to where I really have to say something...
 
First and foremost - lets face the reality that Ready Player One would be a horrible game for most people nor would the events of the book be enjoyable for the majority of the player base.
 
If you're looking at your game and going "Hey look it's just like RPO!" - what I hear is "Look just a handful of no lifers got to have all the fun!". That IS the plot of RPO. A tiny group of players who take the game WAY WAY WAY WAY too seriously get to enjoy the content while the rest may as well not exist.
 
The puzzle fit this perfectly. A tiny group of players with tons of NDA covered information going back to pre-alpha solve a puzzle while the rest of the community doesn't even know it exists. Yup  - very RPO.
 
JC - The takeaway from the puzzle event should not be that "Look it was just like RPO! I did a good job!" - it should be that "The event was a complete failure and did not involve the majority of the community in a meaningful way, and was solved largely due to a bug and alpha knowledge that was not available to the bulk of the community."
 
Please please please for the sake of DU - stop trying to make this game like a fictional book about a fictional game. You need to take a serious look at how other games have done community events and have managed to involve much larger groups of players. Everything from opening the gates of Ahn'Qiraj to the Elite Dangerous Alien events - yes they were flawed in their own ways - but by and large involved more people.
 
 
Finally, this doesn't just cover events. The general game mechanics cannot be based on the mindset "Just like RPO!" - because I repeat - RPO would be a horrible game. In fact, I would go as far as saying if you are looking at any upcoming part of the game like AvA or Territory Warfare or Atmospheric combat and can say "This is just like RPO!" - then it probably needs to be reworked to NOT be like RPO but to be like an actual game that would be fun for more people.
 
Once again - face reality - RPO was a no life simulator where only the no lifers mattered.
 
This means designing things in consideration of players who are not willing to play DU 16 hours a day - and entire teams of such players.
 
Players are not going to want to spend hours waiting for an attack on a territory to man the manual guns because you refuse to consider automatic defenses.
 
Players are not going to want to fly dedicated gunners or escorts for every single hauler just because they may get attacked.
 
Players are not going to want to sit in their ship for hours watching the radar while their orgmates mine out an asteroid.
 
I could go on and on, but the core point is that the game mechanics need to be designed around giving people who do not no life the game a chance to have fun and stand a chance in pvp vs those that do.